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[50 Fathoms] Really Dirty Fighter

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  • [50 Fathoms] Really Dirty Fighter

    I already asked this over here, but it seems like Clint isn't answering questions on official settings currently. Which is fine, I imagine he's quite busy with the Savage Pathfinder beta and all! But I still want an answer, so I'd like to gather a few opinions of the community.

    The question is about the Really Dirty Fighter edge. It says (from the SWADE conversion doc):

    The knave is extremely skilled in tactical deceit. By describing the test and spending a Benny, he may automatically get the drop on any single opponent.

    The SWD version used "trick" instead of "test" but is otherwise the same.
    This led to the following questions:
    1. Is it enough to describe the test and spend a Benny or does the character actually have to roll a test to succeed?
      I assume it is the latter.
    2. If you have to roll a test, does the test have to use one of the skills boosted by Dirty Fighter or can it be any skill?
      In SWD you only could do tricks with any attribute, so I assume you can use any skill.
    3. If you have to roll a test, does the test also apply Vulnerable/Distracted or does it only apply The Drop?
    4. If you don't have to roll a test, is it still an action (-> MAP applies)?
      I think if it's not a proper test, it doesn't take up an action.
    My current interpretation is this:
    You have to describe the test and then succeed in doing so. If you are successful, you apply Vulnerable/Distracted as normal and may then spend a Benny to get the Drop.

    My thinking is that on the one hand The Drop is powerful enough that it shouldn't be an auto-success (even for a Benny), but on the other hand applying Vulnerable/Distracted makes it less frustrating if it doesn't work. Since Vulnerable and The Drop don't stack I don't see any immediate balancing issues with that.

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    According to the conversion document, Test is capitalized. Which tells us the description of Really Dirty Fighter references the Test rules.

    [logic]
    Really Dirty Fighter is an extension of Dirty Fighter.
    Dirty Fighter gives a free reroll on combative Tests (arcane skills, Athletics, Fighting, Shooting).

    My conclusion is that Really Dirty Fighter can be triggered when using Dirty Fighter. If the player activated RDF then the Fighting attack, regardless of the results of the Test, has The Drop.
    [/logic]
    So a Really Dirty Fighter should make a Test for Distracted when planning to use RDF. And note the intention to use multiple actions to attack the victim.
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

    Comment


    • #3
      The problem here is that the updated Really Dirty Fighter Edge uses the same exact language as the original (only changing "trick" to "Test"), but the updated Dirty Fighter Edge is completely new wording and mechanics. There's no "conflict", but it can get confusing.

      Originally, RDF was clear that when using a trick (at +2 thanks DF) the player can spend a Benny to get The Drop "on any single opponent." This wording, IMO, suggests that the subject of The Drop does not need to be the same target the trick is used on.

      Now, Dirty Fighter was updated to allow a free reroll on some Tests. Really Dirty Fighter was changed to reference those Tests. So, this is my understanding of how it all works:
      1. Character declares intent to use Really Dirty Fighter to get The Drop on a target, so, pursuant to Dirty Fighter, they declare a Test and some form of attack.
      2. They roll the Test (at -2 MAP) and burn a Benny, choosing a target to receive The Drop. If the Test succeeds, The Drop applies to the specified target.
      3. The character may use their free reroll on the Test (spending additional Bennies if they wish).
      4. The character makes their attack roll (at -2 MAP) against the subject of The Drop.
      Although not specified by the Edge, I think the intent is for The Drop to apply only for the acting character (the Edge-holder), and only until the end of their turn.
      Last edited by Deskepticon; 04-14-2021, 12:01 AM. Reason: Reconsidered when The Drop applies

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post
        1. Character declares intent to use Really Dirty Fighter to get The Drop on a target, so, pursuant to Dirty Fighter, they declare a Test and some form of attack.
        2. They roll the Test (at -2 MAP) and burn a Benny, choosing a target to receive The Drop. If the Test succeeds, The Drop applies to the specified target.
        3. The character may use their free reroll on the Test (spending additional Bennies if they wish).
        4. The character makes their attack roll (at -2 MAP) against the subject of The Drop.
        So you think the Benny should be burned before it is clear whether the Test succeeded?
        Interesting. It certainly makes sense because it stops the character from just attempting it every round...but can also be very frustrating...

        Comment


        • Deskepticon
          Deskepticon commented
          Editing a comment
          I see the rationale for spending the Benny AFTER success is determined. Indeed, that's probably a better sequence of execution.

      • #5
        Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post
        Originally, RDF was clear that when using a trick (at +2 thanks DF) the player can spend a Benny to get The Drop "on any single opponent." This wording, IMO, suggests that the subject of The Drop does not need to be the same target the trick is used on.
        Interesting. My initial reaction was disagreement, but the idea of some third party being so amazed by a well-described Test that the RDF gets the Drop on the third party is rather appealing.

        Given that RDF requires the player to describe the Test and spend a Benny, it seems cruel to also require the Test to succeed. Wasting a Benny is never fun.
        I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

        Comment


        • Deskepticon
          Deskepticon commented
          Editing a comment
          Wasting a Benny does indeed suck, but Dirty Fighter does provide a free reroll. So there's a "free" chance for redemption baked-into the Edge.

          Originally I interpretated The Drop as being automatic regardless of the Test results, but the logic centers of my brain flashed amber and rang klaxons at the idea that a FAILED Test can also somehow succeed. But as FrodoB pointed out, it makes more sense to spend the Benny AFTER the Test is determined to succeed... but I'd still require a success, I think.

      • #6
        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Given that RDF requires the player to describe the Test and spend a Benny, it seems cruel to also require the Test to succeed. Wasting a Benny is never fun.
        I agree on that front. This is why I'll probably go "Declare Test -> Succeed Test -> Spend Benny -> Get Drop" and not "Declare Test -> Spend Benny -> Succeed Test -> Get Drop".

        I'm reconsidering if he also gets to apply Vulnerable or Distracted. Because if he could make his opponent Distracted he could make Vigor roll from The Drop even harsher than it already is.

        Comment


        • #7
          Originally posted by FrodoB View Post

          I agree on that front. This is why I'll probably go "Declare Test -> Succeed Test -> Spend Benny -> Get Drop" and not "Declare Test -> Spend Benny -> Succeed Test -> Get Drop".
          Yes. This is definitely a better sequence.

          I'm reconsidering if he also gets to apply Vulnerable or Distracted. Because if he could make his opponent Distracted he could make Vigor roll from The Drop even harsher than it already is.
          Distracted has no impact on The Drop. The Drop does not have a "recovery" phase like Shaken or Stunned; it's a binary Condition: the target either is subject to The Drop or it isn't. The GM decides based on the narrative. With RDF, The Drop probably shouldn't last longer than the character's turn. In other words, his Test opens an exploit in his opponent's defenses, which goes away just as soon as it is exposed.
          Edit - Okay, my bad. The Drop does involve a Vigor roll when the target takes damage. I often forget that.
          Still, I think it's fine to stack Distracted onto that. It means RDF remains viable against targets with high Toughness.

          It sounds like you're considering replacing the normal effects of a Test with The Drop. I think that cheapens the Edge. Not only do you need to invest an Advance AND spend a Benny, but you're losing some effect from the mechanics. Besides, this would mean that target of the Test must also be the target of The Drop. While that may be the original intention (hard to tell from the language), I really like the idea that it can apply to a different target if desired.

          Example: The Test is kicking sand in an opponent's face, but you spend Benny to use the flat of your sword to nonchalantly flick sand into someone else's face.
          (Actually... this example is a good argument for the Test and RDF being independantly successful. Oh, man! I need to rethink this whole thing from the beginning. )
          Last edited by Deskepticon; 04-15-2021, 02:08 AM.

          Comment


          • #8
            Not to totally derail the conversation, but Dirty Fighter is the first problem in the chain. It is very different than dead tree settings' Dirty Fighter.

            Then, Lankhmar's version of Really Dirty Fighter has scoring a Raise adding The Drop to Shaken for the target of the Test. No Benny is involved. Note, it's conversion document has the exact same change:
            Replace Trick with “Test”

            Comment

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