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[Rippers Resurrected] Lodge Points Questions

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  • [Rippers Resurrected] Lodge Points Questions

    So I see that lodge points are earned anytime advances happen. It says you can not start a lodge until Seasoned, would novice characters accumulate lodge points at advancement prior to seasoned (e.g. say a group of 4 players and therefore have 16 points banked, 3 novice + 1 seasoned x 4 characters). If advances are not given every session, there can be a rapid building of a lodge at rank season. Is this the intent of the game?

    Or do they begin accumulating lodge points with the first seasoned advance (e.g. the players have 4 lodge points and would start the session after they reach seasoned with an entry level lodge).

    Another Lodge question, if players do not want a given room given by a rank, what is the best solution in place of that rank. The example that is touched off but not explained is the German Hunter Lodge on page 40 (example lodges), where they do not believe in rippertech. they are rank 3, rank 4 would open their ripper lab, would you as a GM give them something else in place or is it just a lost advantage. Given a number of factions (St. George, Witch Hunters, and Rosicrucian too, so 3 of the 7) disavow the use of it. I know lodges have mixed factions, but do you think zealots would allow that where they work. I was thinking of maybe letting them add a Lodge edge in their place if they go that way.

    Thanks for help in advance,

  • #2
    Originally posted by Crimson View Post
    So I see that lodge points are earned anytime advances happen. It says you can not start a lodge until Seasoned, would novice characters accumulate lodge points at advancement prior to seasoned (e.g. say a group of 4 players and therefore have 16 points banked, 3 novice + 1 seasoned x 4 characters). If advances are not given every session, there can be a rapid building of a lodge at rank season. Is this the intent of the game?
    We don't know.
    I assume no one gets Lodge points until you can create a Lodge, but we don't know.

    Originally posted by Crimson View Post
    Another Lodge question, if players do not want a given room given by a rank, what is the best solution in place of that rank.
    GM call, and it's going to vary with the specific circumstance. Personally, I'd give them a free Lodge Edge, but there's a lot of possibilities.

    Originally posted by Crimson View Post
    but do you think zealots would allow that where they work.
    No. Because Zealots. They're notably zealous, or "fanatical and uncompromising". Compromise is anathema to the definition.
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks, Val. That is how I would handle the swap out of the non-wanted level advance.

      I am still interested in when Lodge points first begin accumulating (given that even most listed lodges are lower rank upon more reading), my guess is at Seasoned. Is there anyway to get an official ruling now that they seem they are answering official questions. How do you tag Ron or other official types?

      Comment


      • Deskepticon
        Deskepticon commented
        Editing a comment
        You'll want to start a new topic in this forum. PEGRon (or someone else) would see it eventually.

        P.S. To tag a user, type the "at" symbol before their name. Just be sure to leave a space directly after the name or it won't properly tag them.
        Example: Crimson .
        Last edited by Deskepticon; 11-12-2019, 05:38 PM.

    • #4
      I’m deleting the post in the other forum because this question is not SWADE-related, but I’ll answer here. In the future feel free to PM or tag me if you’d like me to answer a question in another forum. I’ll do my best to make time for it.

      To your first question, you start earning Lodge Points when you’ve started a Lodge.

      For the Rippertech Lab example, this is GM’s call, but I’d agree with a free Edge as a good substitute.

      On the zealots issue, this is another GM call, but desperate times call for desperate measures, and I could see these groups having the facilities for those visiting Rippers who may have need of the facilities.

      Great questions!

      Comment


      • Crimson
        Crimson commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank you Ron for the sorting of topics and official answer(s) and insight.

    • #5
      I disregard the system. >.> It doesn't make sense. Buildings don't magically grow new chambers. When building a purpose built structure you have a set amount of rooms.

      Comment


      • #6
        Originally posted by Christopher Brady View Post
        I disregard the system. >.> It doesn't make sense. Buildings don't magically grow new chambers. When building a purpose built structure you have a set amount of rooms.
        Until you remodel, add on, expand, buy adjacent property, or otherwise change the structure.
        Which seems to be what Lodge Points represent - the constant work the Ripper Lodge is doing in the background of the game to improve their base and make themselves more capable.
        I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

        Comment


        • #7
          I would totally see it as a side mechanic aiding character advancements given the underdog situation of the players.

          A way I would see it happening is off camera advancement of a base like you see with the Alienist TV series. Also Taboo TV series shows the "protagonist" James using favor (though mostly underclass) to build his lodges (his family home and the country powder works) which happens both on "screen" and off.

          Comment


          • #8
            Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post

            Until you remodel, add on, expand, buy adjacent property, or otherwise change the structure.
            Which seems to be what Lodge Points represent - the constant work the Ripper Lodge is doing in the background of the game to improve their base and make themselves more capable.
            This isn't Rural America. Remember this is Victorian Era, the last vestiges of the Imperial era, where the main empires are dying or changing into something smaller. And the only who can commission buildings are the rich. And I mean really Rich. Probably Filthy. There is no 'upper middle class' that can afford their own homes in a sprawling field, there are no sprawling fields that isn't already owned. And they're not going to start with a hovel and hope to expand, they're going to be remodeling an existing structure, which has very limited space and often crowded in a city. Or if they do have access to a field, they will be building a large structure with plenty of rooms and space, because you have the money and prestige. Especially given how England focused the core book is.

            And who exactly are you going to hire to do the work? I mean, all plans are looked over by city planners, they're going to look firmly at everything you're putting into your house and some might cause odd questions like, "Why do you want a surgery in your house? And what is this? A Sanatorium? And it's not a hospital?"

            It's a silly system that makes no sense. Houses don't 'level up'.

            Comment


            • #9
              Originally posted by Christopher Brady View Post
              This isn't Rural America. Remember this is Victorian Era, the last vestiges of the Imperial era, where the main empires are dying or changing into something smaller. And the only who can commission buildings are the rich. And I mean really Rich. Probably Filthy. There is no 'upper middle class' that can afford their own homes in a sprawling field, there are no sprawling fields that isn't already owned. And they're not going to start with a hovel and hope to expand, they're going to be remodeling an existing structure, which has very limited space and often crowded in a city. Or if they do have access to a field, they will be building a large structure with plenty of rooms and space, because you have the money and prestige. Especially given how England focused the core book is.
              Wow, so many flawed assumptions
              Unless the lodge is in a London townhouse, none of that applies. If it is in a London townhouse then you a) buy the adjacent townhouse, b) submit false plans, and c) bribe the inspectors. Because we're talking about Victorian England, a remarkably corrupt time period when those with wealth, status, or both can do whatever they please as long as they make an attempt to be discreet.
              Outside of London, building prices are much lower, restrictive regulations don't exist

              And who exactly are you going to hire to do the work?
              Your own people; retainers, loyal sailors, etc. Alternatively, the same groups of shady-but-reliable firms that do similar work for various other criminals and secret cabals.
              I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

              Comment


              • #10
                This is the world that gives us the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Penny Dreadful, right? Not having facilities hidden away in the walls of a secret society's sanctum is just droll.

                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
                  Wow, so many flawed assumptions
                  Unless the lodge is in a London townhouse, none of that applies.
                  Where would you get the land? This is ENGLAND of the 19th century, the random middle class person will not be able to afford a house outside city limits, unless they were born into it. Most middle class folks are RENTING from landlords.

                  Which brings a second problem, what if the PC is the child of a pair of Rippers? You know the trope, they lived in ignorance of their parents activities, but one day their enemies come and kill the parents! Oh no! So the child, wanting justice/revenge does some digging and finds that the basement is a full on Ripper base!

                  Except that because they're a novice, they suddenly can no longer access the base. Until they hit Seasoned. And once they do that, they ONLY have access to the meeting room.

                  Houses don't level up. I'm sorry, there has to be some sort of plausibility here. Yes, I know it's Horror Pulp, but there's only so much stretching of the suspenders of disbelief before they snap, hit you in the face and drop your pants.

                  Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
                  If it is in a London townhouse then you a) buy the adjacent townhouse, b) submit false plans, and c) bribe the inspectors. Because we're talking about Victorian England, a remarkably corrupt time period when those with wealth, status, or both can do whatever they please as long as they make an attempt to be discreet.
                  Outside of London, building prices are much lower, restrictive regulations don't exist
                  And no one would question why these people are buying houses? And where they are getting the money? They're not the Upper Class. Social class is very much a thing in Europe. It's STILL very much a thing to this very day. And how in the 9 H-E-Double Hockey Sticks do you rationalize away a fully equipped surgery in the middle of a residential zone?

                  Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
                  Your own people; retainers, loyal sailors, etc. Alternatively, the same groups of shady-but-reliable firms that do similar work for various other criminals and secret cabals.
                  How many of them actually know of the 'Dark World? I was under the impression there aren't many left. And the more people in on the conspiracy, the less likely it'll stay secret.

                  But all that is ignoring the very elephant in the room (Sorry big guy) why bother? Now, assuming your game is in England (as the player's book has the largest section of the world dedicated to Britain) why bother with your own lodge when you can simply use the Van Helsing manor? A Rank 12 resource available for the PC's because as per the description because any Ripper has access to any Lodge.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Originally posted by Christopher Brady View Post
                    Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
                    Wow, so many flawed assumptions
                    Unless the lodge is in a London townhouse, none of that applies. If it is in a London townhouse then you a) buy the adjacent townhouse, b) submit false plans, and c) bribe the inspectors. Because we're talking about Victorian England, a remarkably corrupt time period when those with wealth, status, or both can do whatever they please as long as they make an attempt to be discreet.
                    Outside of London, building prices are much lower, restrictive regulations don't exist
                    And no one would question why these people are buying houses? And where they are getting the money? They're not the Upper Class. Social class is very much a thing in Europe. It's STILL very much a thing to this very day. And how in the 9 H-E-Double Hockey Sticks do you rationalize away a fully equipped surgery in the middle of a residential zone?
                    Who bought anything. See, this deed says the house has been in my family for 10 generations. <whisper> New money </whisper> (Nevermind the ink on said deed is still wet. The totally scrupulous clerks of Spring Gardens just issued a copy from the archive. They'd never accept a bribe to create documents from wholecloth....)

                    The bottom line is that hidden chambers and resources in bowels of townhouses and country estates is a long-held conceit of the genre. If that doesn't fit your conception of the setting because it's not realistic, so be it. It was never meant to be. It's a manifestation of the "who knows what the nobs get up to?" suspicions. The important question for your game is whether the opposition has access to a lodge and what happens when your players get it in their heads that they want one, too.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      Originally posted by Christopher Brady View Post
                      Where would you get the land?
                      That's an interesting question for an Interlude. Was it theft? A gift? Forgery? A 100 year rental? Something else?
                      All of those are possible in the 19th century United Kingdom. The interesting question isn't "did you", it's "how did you".

                      Which brings a second problem, what if the PC is the child of a pair of Rippers? You know the trope, they lived in ignorance of their parents activities, but one day their enemies come and kill the parents! Oh no! So the child, wanting justice/revenge does some digging and finds that the basement is a full on Ripper base!
                      A base that self destructs, or has locks with keys that are delivered via mail, or that the character ignores because the base isn't perceived as useful in the character's quest of vengeance.
                      If a player came to me with this as an excuse to try to break the rule then I'd laugh in their face, and explain that you don't 'inherit' a fully functional bat cave. You earn that.

                      Houses don't level up.
                      So you've said. And I've presented reasonable counter arguments. That you've ignored with the circular logic that houses can't level up.
                      Fun aside: People don't level up.

                      And no one would question why these people are buying houses?
                      Of course they will. That's a fun story hook for a future adventure!
                      But the characters are part of a "secret society", so they must have access to money, resources, connections, and favors that let them bypass the restrictions on common people. Because that's what secret societies do in 19th century England. Even secret societies so crass as to allow low born members.
                      Money can come from rewards, loot, buried treasure, colonialism, or selling parts to other Ripper lodges. Unless it's interesting to game, it doesn't need more than a throw away sentence.

                      And how in the 9 H-E-Double Hockey Sticks do you rationalize away a fully equipped surgery in the middle of a residential zone?
                      It's the 19th century. A surgery is just a tiled room with a floor drain, good lighting, and a sturdy table for the patient to be strapped to.

                      How many of them actually know of the 'Dark World? I was under the impression there aren't many left. And the more people in on the conspiracy, the less likely it'll stay secret.
                      Workers don't need to know the details of the Ripper organization or the 'Dark World'. They just need to know that the employers want discretion, and be reliable enough to be discrete. Lots of groups want skilled work by people who don't talk about it, and most of them are willing to pay well for that work.

                      But all that is ignoring the very elephant in the room (Sorry big guy) why bother? Now, assuming your game is in England (as the player's book has the largest section of the world dedicated to Britain) why bother with your own lodge when you can simply use the Van Helsing manor? A Rank 12 resource available for the PC's because as per the description because any Ripper has access to any Lodge.
                      Why do children move out of their parent's houses? Why do managers and executives leave one company to start a brand new company?
                      Freedom, self worth, prove something, or whatever.
                      If the GM makes Van Helsing manor available then the players are within their rights to use it. Most will, but not all. And if VH isn't available then having rules for founding and building your own Lodge is important.
                      I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        But Lodges are not homes. They are bases of operations that you CAN live in, but not necessarily, they also have a wide variety of people who walk in and out. I'm sorry, but for me and mine, the system doesn't work. It's silly, nonsensical and it takes my crew out of the game. But if YOU and yours like it, I can't stop from using it. And I won't. I was just explaining as to why I don't use it.

                        Oh and people DO level up. What do you think mastering a skill is? Working out? It's IMPROVING yourself which is what leveling is supposed to be modeling. Ironically, SW has a more plausible system than most other games although it's deeply rooted in pulp stories.

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Originally posted by Christopher Brady View Post
                          Oh and people DO level up. What do you think mastering a skill is? Working out? It's IMPROVING yourself which is what leveling is supposed to be modeling. Ironically, SW has a more plausible system than most other games although it's deeply rooted in pulp stories.
                          People change, not "level up", and the change isn't always an improvement. People get fat, they get ugly or out of shape, they forget things, they stagnant in a changing field because they refuse to learn the new tech, they get fired and must start a brand new career from the bottom...
                          Growing up, the kid next door was into gymnastics. He was always doing cartwheels, hand springs, backflips and the like. I bumped into him about 15 years later and he had to be over 300 lbs.

                          Games are usually only interested in tracking positive changes because a) they aren't real-world simulators, and b) they need some type of mechanism for introducing bigger threats and keeping the players engaged.

                          Even games that offer an illusion of choice do this. Mass Effect allows the player to persue either a Paragon or Renegade lifestyle, but the only impact on the game is that each opens-up unique dialog options. Indeed, the worst type of character to play in ME is one that balances between Paragon and Renegade, since both are handled as types of improvement.

                          _____

                          You are trying to apply rigid logic to Lodges, but I doubt you are holding characters to that same standard. The character with a high Strength or Agility would need to maintain it constantly or atrophy/lose elasticity. Nevermind improving, staying current would be a major timesink for the character. However, the game handwaves that type of investiture because it's not fun nor particularly productive. Even if it is realistic.

                          Lodges are no different. Try focusing on ways a Lodge could be expanded or improved, rather than the reasons it realistically couldn't.

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