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  • #16
    Originally posted by Rick J'onzz View Post
    Do we know when in 2019 Deadlands Adventure Edition will be coming out?
    No. I have the impression that PEG hasn't decided about that yet.

    Also, welcome to the forum.
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

    Comment


    • #17
      I know this is a weird suggestion, but I wonder if you could run a "pretty close" version of Deadlands using SWADE and just re-skinning stuff. Other than being Harrowed and Huckster's barganing for power, it would probably work pretty well with just RAW, right?

      Comment


      • ValhallaGH
        ValhallaGH commented
        Editing a comment
        That's pretty much how Setting Rules work.

    • #18
      I'm also trying to combine SWADE with DLR and I'm looking for feedback. I'm looking at how Savage Worlds Deluxe (SWD) did something and how it was changed by Deadlands:Reloaded (DLR). Then I'm looking at how SWADE does it derive a possible solution.

      For me, these are the topics that have to be looked at:
      • Powers
      • Arcane Backgrounds
      • Reloading
      • Weapon types
      • Drawing weapons
      • Guts/Grit

      Powers:
      Use Powers from SWADE. Disallow Powers that don't fit Deadlands. Use the list of allowed Powers from DLR for each AB to determine allowed Powers.

      The following powers from SWADE are disallowed:
      Banish
      Divination
      Intangibility
      Mind Reading
      Mind Wipe
      Object Reading
      Resurrection

      How the following DLR-specific powers should be handled:
      Aim: removed, can be replicated not rules-wise but intention-wise) by boost trait
      Curse: There's no similar Power in SWADE, so it stays as is
      Exorcism: Very different from SWADE Banish, so it stays as is
      Gambler: Much too powerful now with the recharge of 5 PP per hour, just remove it
      Hunch: Cannot be accurately replicated by Mind Reading/Object Reading, so it stays as is
      Inspiration: Stays as is
      Mind Rider: Is now a modifier on a lot of Powers, Mind Link can do something similar for persons, so just remove the Power
      Sanctify: Stays as is
      Trinkets: Just allow Hucksters the use of Bennies for that instead
      Vision Quest: Stays as is
      Wilderness Walk: Stays as is
      Windstorm: Just use Havoc

      Hucksters:
      SWD: AB(Magic) has 10 Power Points and 3 Powers. Recharges 1 PP per hour.
      DLR: Recharges 1 PP per 3 hours, can Deal with the Devil.
      SWADE: 10 Power Points, 3 Powers, Recharges at 5 PP per hour

      Proposed conversion: As per SWADE, but recharges at 5 PP per full 3 hours (no partials), can Deal with the Devil exactly as described in DLR.

      Blessed:
      SWD: AB(Miracle) has 10 PP and 2 Powers. Sins give -2 to Faith or cost powers for one week.
      DLR (Good Intentions): 15 PP and 3 Powers, one of them has to be protection. 1 on Faith reduces Faith by 1 die until next hour of prayers. Sins as in SWD.
      SWADE: 10 PP and 3 Powers. No mentioning of Sins. Recharges 5 PP per hour.

      Proposed conversion: 15 PP, 3 Powers (one of them has to be SWADE protection), Sins as in DLR, 1 on Faith reduces Faith by 1 die until next hour of prayer, recharges 5 PP per hour.

      Weird Science:
      SWD: 10 PP, 1 Power, gaining a New Power means gaining a new device, every device has the scientist's full PP, very simple Malfunction table
      DLR: 20 PP, gaining a New Power also gives a dementia, Malfunctions are always damage in a burst
      SWADE: 15 PP, 2 Powers, new rules for Arcane Devices, Gadgeteer can be used to create temporary devices for unknown Powers on the fly, explicit Malfunction table per Setting Rule "Dynamic Backlash"

      Proposed conversion: As per SWADE including Dynamic Backlash; new Powers give a dementia.

      Shamans:
      I have no experience with them, so no proposals

      Martial Artists:
      I have no experience with them, so no proposals

      Reloading:
      SWD: Reloading one shot is a free action. Half your Agility as an action. Clips or speeed loaders also cost an action but load the gun fully.
      DLR: Reloading takes a action but loads the gun fully. Speed Load Edge or using a speed loader reduces to a free action.
      SWADE: Reloading takes an action and loads one bullet or fully if using a clip or speed loader.

      So reloading in Deadlands is faster than in SWD (which is comparable to SWADE). So I would stay with the DLR version.

      Weapon types:
      In SWD, you could only fire with your gun once per turn (no multiple actions shooting with a single weapon), so you could use two weapons or double tap to put out more shots.
      Shooting with a second hand was the only way to have 2 shooting actions, incurring a further -2 for off-hand use (negateable by an Edge).
      DLR gave double-tap only to double-action revolvers, but gave single-action revolvers the chance to put out 6 bullets in one action at -4 shooting to each bullet (with one Wild Die) with two available edges to reduce the penalty.
      In SWADE everyone can now shoot up to 3 times per round (at -4 MAP). Double Tap is an Edge. Rapid Fire increases RoF but only on up to 2 shots (with 2 Edges). Using 2 guns in both hands now only makes sense when using the Two-Gun-Kid Edge but this eliminates the MAP (still gives the off-hand penalty, negateable by an Edge).

      Proposed conversion: All double-action revolvers confer the Double Tag Edge to the user automatically. All single-action revolvers confer "Fan the Hammer" (a new ability) if used one handed.
      sing "Fan the Hammer" increase RoF by 1 on ALL shots (so in all 3 possible actions). Increased RoF from Fan the Hammer uses up only 1 additional bullet each.
      New Edge "Hip Shooter" reduces penalties from recoil or MAP by 2 when using Fan the Hammer.

      So you have the following options with Fan the Hammer:
      • 1 shooting action: total of 2 bullets at -2 (recoil) and 1 Wild Die, reduceable by Rock&Roll Edge and Hip Shooter Edge
      • 2 shooting actions: total of 4 bullets at -4 (MAP and recoil), reduceable by Rock&Roll Edge and Hip Shooter Edge, 1 Wild Die on each action
      • 3 shooting actions: total of 6 bullets at -6 (MAP and recoil), reduceable by Rock&Roll Edge and Hip Shooter Edge, 1 Wild Die on each action
      This way you can still 6 targets with your 6 shots, but at a little harsher penalties than in DLR, but with 3 times the Wild Dice.

      Drawing weapons:
      SWD: Drawing a weapon is an action, incurring MAP if used with another action. Quick Draw Edge reduces it to a free action.
      DLR: Quick Draw holster reduces MAP to -1 when drawing without the Quick Draw Edge
      SWADE: Drawing a weapon from a holster is a free action.

      I understand, why SWADE does it the way it does. It is way more fun to use actions to do things (shooting) instead of just readying items to be used later. But in a setting where it is also thematically important, how fast you can draw your guns, this should make a difference, especially in duels.
      I see two possible ways:
      1) Keep it as it is in SWADE, but keep the -2 when choosing speed over accuracy in a duel (and only in a duel), reduceable by Quick Draw Edge or holster.
      2) Revert back to DLR with a Setting Rule that readying a weapon costs an action and the MAP can be reduced with the Quick Draw Edge (new Edge) or holster.
      I'm leaning towards 2)

      Guts/Grit:
      SWADE removed the Guts skill. You could either make a Setting Rule that puts Guts back into the game (maybe at a free d4 or d6), or keep it as in SWADE and only use Spirit and remove Guts as a prerequisite where it is referenced.
      I think I prefer using SWADE.

      I'm looking forward to your feedback.

      Comment


      • #19
        Welcome to the forum!
        Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
        I'm also trying to combine SWADE with DLR and I'm looking for feedback.
        Okay, but you asked for it. I'll note that any analysis that ignored Deadlands Deluxe-ified was fundamentally flawed.

        Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
        For me, these are the topics that have to be looked at:
        • Powers
        • Arcane Backgrounds
        • Reloading
        • Weapon types
        • Drawing weapons
        • Guts/Grit
        Not a bad list, but you can probably drop Weapon types from it.
        The Setting Rules that aren't Grit or magic need a good hard look.

        Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
        Powers:
        Use Powers from SWADE. Disallow Powers that don't fit Deadlands. Use the list of allowed Powers from DLR for each AB to determine allowed Powers.

        The following powers from SWADE are disallowed:
        Banish
        Divination
        Intangibility
        Mind Reading
        Mind Wipe
        Object Reading
        Resurrection
        As a Classic veteran, I can tell you that almost all of those do fit into one or more of the Arcane Backgrounds.
        Resurrection was one of the possible results of a Ghost Dance, but that was an insanely difficult ritual that required eight or more participants and at least 24 hours of casting. When used on a Harrowed it made him permanently dead by destroying the manitou, but sent the human soul onto the earned afterlife.
        Banish is a thing in the setting. It used to be handled by the Holy Warrior edge but that does something completely different now. It should be available to Blessed and Shamans, and maybe Mad Science.
        Divination is absolutely a thing. Shamans commune with Nature Spirits, Hucksters can consult with Manitou (usually a pile of lies but may still be helpful), and Blessed can probably commune with the local spirits of the restless dead before sending them off to their final reward.
        Intangibility is mostly a Harrowed thing (the Ghost edge) or a Black Magic thing. This one should be cut from the rest.
        Mind Reading was mostly used by Classic Hucksters to cheat at cards or interrogate foes. Cutting it is no great loss.
        Mind Wipe was another Classic Huckster ability but I think things are more interesting without it. Though I would keep it in mind as a rare special reward for Blessed trying to help a traumatized survivor.
        Object Reading was another Classic Huckster ability. I've never liked the concept and I was glad to see it gone. It also does a lot to mitigate or negate various investigations, another strike against. Probably improved by deleting.

        Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
        How the following DLR-specific powers should be handled:
        Aim: removed, can be replicated not rules-wise but intention-wise) by boost trait
        Curse: There's no similar Power in SWADE, so it stays as is
        Exorcism: Very different from SWADE Banish, so it stays as is
        Gambler: Much too powerful now with the recharge of 5 PP per hour, just remove it
        Hunch: Cannot be accurately replicated by Mind Reading/Object Reading, so it stays as is
        Inspiration: Stays as is
        Mind Rider: Is now a modifier on a lot of Powers, Mind Link can do something similar for persons, so just remove the Power
        Sanctify: Stays as is
        Trinkets: Just allow Hucksters the use of Bennies for that instead
        Vision Quest: Stays as is
        Wilderness Walk: Stays as is
        Windstorm: Just use Havoc
        I don't like it, but Reloaded has always had Aim despite the existence of boost Trait. Heck, Shootists have access to both powers. Until PEG puts out the new setting book, you should probably leave it in.
        Replacing Trinkets with a Fate Chip is wildly overpowered. Being able to reach into your pocket and pull out a loaded pistol is highly magical.

        Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
        Hucksters: ... Proposed conversion: As per SWADE, but recharges at 5 PP per full 3 hours (no partials), can Deal with the Devil exactly as described in DLR.

        Blessed: ... Proposed conversion: 15 PP, 3 Powers (one of them has to be SWADE protection), Sins as in DLR, 1 on Faith reduces Faith by 1 die until next hour of prayer, recharges 5 PP per hour.

        Weird Science: ... Proposed conversion: As per SWADE including Dynamic Backlash; new Powers give a dementia.

        Shamans: ... I have no experience with them, so no proposals

        Martial Artists: ... I have no experience with them, so no proposals
        Hucksters need to have a nerf on Deal With the Devil. Being able to pull 14 cards guarantees that a Straight is the worst hand they can have. Probably making it 4 + Rank + Edges would work, since that reduces the maximum by three.
        Blessed shouldn't be required to have armor/protection. DLR Protection was basically a Test to keep the supernatural at bay, not damage resistance. Follow SWAE and drop the Sins thing - you get better stories like the alcoholic priest that sobers up to face true darkness. Probably impose a required Hindrance related to the religion.
        Your proposal for Mad Science has too many drawbacks. Dynamic Backlash + Dementia with no benefits is a lot of bad but no good to compensate. Give them something (Channeling, Concentration, Power Points, Power Surge, Rapid Recharge; something) to balance out, or they'll become an "also ran".
        Shamans are just a different flavor of Arcane Background (Miracles). Use that, but give them a Vow or Obligation to their tribe / nature.
        Martial Artists should be using Arcane Background (Gifted).

        Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
        Reloading: ... So reloading in Deadlands is faster than in SWD (which is comparable to SWADE). So I would stay with the DLR version.
        Seems correct.

        Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
        Weapon types:
        Bad idea. Double Tap is an Edge that gives +1 to all Shooting and Damage rolls with all guns at the price of doubling ammunition used; unless single-action revolvers perform "personal favors" for their owners, they cannot compete with that.
        ...
        It's probably not worthwhile to keep the distinction in the rules. I hate to say that, but keeping it creates noteworthy game design problems for minimal changes to game play.

        Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
        Fan the Hammer
        Fan the Hammer is a cinematic shooting technique where a highly skilled shootist empties their revolver in a thunderous moment of gunfire.
        I'd make it an Edge, one that works like Rapid Fire but uses fewer bullets and commits the character to one action - firing his gun. He can use one, two, or three Actions to shoot, but each action is two Shooting dice and one Wild Die to fire two shots; recoil applies.
        Hip Shooting reduces the MAP when using Fan the Hammer.
        Basically the same thing you proposed but a function of the Gunman, not of the pistol.

        Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
        Drawing weapons:
        I genuinely don't see a reason to not use Adventure Edition here. As for dueling, see below.

        Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
        Guts/Grit:
        Two options spring to mind.
        First, the model used in Deadlands: Noir and Hell On Earth: Reloaded. Guts and Grit are edges that half / eliminate the Fear Level penalty for the character.
        Second, Grit only reduces penalties to Fear checks, it is not a bonus. The Guts skill can stay or go; it has advantages both ways, but I'd drop it.

        I'd recommend the second because of the Dueling rules. Though you can just replace Grit with Rank if you choose the first.

        Dueling:
        As DL:R except nothing mitigates the -2 when Going for Speed. Being Unnerved is just the Distracted condition.
        I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

        Comment


        • Augusto Antunes
          Augusto Antunes commented
          Editing a comment
          I've been wondering what would happen to Fan the Hammer given some of the changes in SWADE, and I gotta say that making it an edge is actually perfect. Makes a lot of sense (I'd even argue that it actually makes more sense to have it as an edge than as a free combat maneuver) and it also falls in line with the SWADE change to Double Tap.

          I'm also liking your alternatives to the way Grit works.

          We may not agree on a lot of things, but I certainly do appreciate the little golden nuggets of rule analysis such as these that you drop on us every now and then, ValhallaGH.
          Last edited by Augusto Antunes; 01-09-2019, 09:49 PM.

      • #20
        Thanks for the feedback, very helpful stuff in there.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Okay, but you asked for it. I'll note that any analysis that ignored Deadlands Deluxe-ified was fundamentally flawed.
        What makes you think I didn't include deluxified in my ideas? Especially the list of forbidden powers comes almost directly from deluxifed.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        I don't like it, but Reloaded has always had Aim despite the existence of boost Trait. Heck, Shootists have access to both powers. Until PEG puts out the new setting book, you should probably leave it in.
        For me this is enough duplication to cut it.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Replacing Trinkets with a Fate Chip is wildly overpowered. Being able to reach into your pocket and pull out a loaded pistol is highly magical.
        For me this is a classic example of the new use for Bennies in SWADE: "INFLUENCE THE STORY". As long as no one has searched me, I can always say "wait a minute, didn't I put a gun in my coat just this morning?" GM approval required, of course.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Hucksters need to have a nerf on Deal With the Devil. Being able to pull 14 cards guarantees that a Straight is the worst hand they can have. Probably making it 4 + Rank + Edges would work, since that reduces the maximum by three.
        Maybe I'm missing something, but how do you get 14 cards? And what in SWADE changed so that this is now different from DLR?

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Blessed shouldn't be required to have armor/protection. DLR Protection was basically a Test to keep the supernatural at bay, not damage resistance. Follow SWAE and drop the Sins thing - you get better stories like the alcoholic priest that sobers up to face true darkness. Probably impose a required Hindrance related to the religion.
        Good point, Blessed shouldn't be shoe-horned into having protection, and droppings Sins is also a good idea.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Your proposal for Mad Science has too many drawbacks. Dynamic Backlash + Dementia with no benefits is a lot of bad but no good to compensate. Give them something (Channeling, Concentration, Power Points, Power Surge, Rapid Recharge; something) to balance out, or they'll become an "also ran".
        The dementia thing should probably be dropped, I agree.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Shamans are just a different flavor of Arcane Background (Miracles). Use that, but give them a Vow or Obligation to their tribe / nature.
        Martial Artists should be using Arcane Background (Gifted).
        As I've said, I have no experience there, but both of these sound simple and make sense. Not having special rules for that is good.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Bad idea. Double Tap is an Edge that gives +1 to all Shooting and Damage rolls with all guns at the price of doubling ammunition used; unless single-action revolvers perform "personal favors" for their owners, they cannot compete with that.
        ...
        It's probably not worthwhile to keep the distinction in the rules. I hate to say that, but keeping it creates noteworthy game design problems for minimal changes to game play.
        Good point. I like the distinction between single-action and double-action, but it probably is not needed. And +1/+1 is very powerful, I agree, so should probably not be "free".

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Fan the Hammer is a cinematic shooting technique where a highly skilled shootist empties their revolver in a thunderous moment of gunfire.
        I'd make it an Edge, one that works like Rapid Fire but uses fewer bullets and commits the character to one action - firing his gun. He can use one, two, or three Actions to shoot, but each action is two Shooting dice and one Wild Die to fire two shots; recoil applies.
        Hip Shooting reduces the MAP when using Fan the Hammer.
        Basically the same thing you proposed but a function of the Gunman, not of the pistol.
        I like that, especially that it is a function of the shooter, not the weapon.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        I genuinely don't see a reason to not use Adventure Edition here. As for dueling, see below.
        As I said, one option would be to only have it for duels. Have to see how it plays to instantly draw guns.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Two options spring to mind.
        First, the model used in Deadlands: Noir and Hell On Earth: Reloaded. Guts and Grit are edges that half / eliminate the Fear Level penalty for the character.
        Second, Grit only reduces penalties to Fear checks, it is not a bonus. The Guts skill can stay or go; it has advantages both ways, but I'd drop it.
        Why only reduce penalties? DLR also has it as a bonus.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Dueling:
        As DL:R except nothing mitigates the -2 when Going for Speed. Being Unnerved is just the Distracted condition.
        I like that unnerved is distracted, but why no mitigation of -2? Isn't this exactly what the Quick Draw edge is all about?

        Comment


        • #21
          Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
          For me this is a classic example of the new use for Bennies in SWADE: "INFLUENCE THE STORY". As long as no one has searched me, I can always say "wait a minute, didn't I put a gun in my coat just this morning?" GM approval required, of course.
          Right, but Trinkets works even if the guards just emptied all the characters' pockets.
          It fills a niche that the core rules don't. Whether or not that's a niche that should be filled is a different question.

          Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
          Maybe I'm missing something, but how do you get 14 cards? And what in SWADE changed so that this is now different from DLR?
          5 Base.
          7 maximum Grit - including True Grit and Harrowed.
          2 Improved High Roller.
          Nothing in SWAE changed that calculation, but it's so stupidly powerful that I hope and expect they'll change it when they do the Adventure Edition setting book.

          Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
          The dementia thing should probably be dropped, I agree.
          Actually, I'm in favor of keeping Dementia. One of the great perils of "New Science" is that it eventually drives all practitioners mad. That's kind of a big deal and I hate to see it go.
          I can understand having to get rid of it, but my view is that it's more central to the themes than Dynamic Backlash is.
          I'd probably do Power Surge, and call it Moment of Insight. If I wanted to be boring I'd go with +5 Power Points.

          Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
          Why only reduce penalties? DLR also has it as a bonus.
          Because making it a bonus to Fear checks means that high Grit characters are essentially immune to Fear, regardless of source, outside of a no-crap Deadland (Fear Level 6). A +5 is a heck of a bonus, especially in Fear Level 3 against a creature that has no modifier to Fear.
          By making it penalty negation, instead of a bonus, it fulfills the same goal - allowing experienced characters to easily handle the creepiness of higher Fear Levels - without making the characters mathematically incapable of failure. It also allows Brave to be an excellent Edge, because Brave does provide a bonus to Fear checks.

          Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
          I like that unnerved is distracted, but why no mitigation of -2? Isn't this exactly what the Quick Draw edge is all about?
          If the Quick Draw edge only applies to duels then it needs to be deleted. If you're making combat slower, clunkier, and less fun just to support a single Edge then you've gotten turned around in the design process. So, let's not talk about Quick Draw again.
          I say no mitigation to make it a risk-reward choice. If you go for Speed then you will get to shoot, but going for Accuracy means you have to survive the speedy guy's shot. However, the speedy guy has a penalty to his shot because of his haste, giving Accuracy better odds of hitting.
          Speed Risks higher odds of missing but is Rewarded by eliminating foes before they return fire.
          Accuracy Risks being Incapacitated before shooting but is Rewarded by an easier and more accurate shot.
          Negating that makes one option always best, regardless of the Duel.

          You could put the mitigation into the Duelist edge but that makes a specialty edge even more essential.
          I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

          Comment


          • #22
            OK, I'm not trying to "fix" Deadlands here, only make it work with SWADE. So if it's broken in DLR, it is not really a concern for me to fix it here. Especially if these are things that only apply to very high level characters. At that level, a lot of things are broken (just gear or allies alone can make things broken at that level). I'm looking for "working at early and middle levels".

            And even with 14 cards, a straight is not guaranteed. Very likely, but not guaranteed.
            2,2 3,3 4,4 5,5 7,7 8,8 9,9 with 4H, 4D, 4C and 2 Spades.
            That's 14 cards and only two pairs.

            One question regarding your version of "Fan the Hammer". This is strictly superior to "Rapid Fire". Rapid Fire increases RoF on one shot, FtH on all shots. Do you think that this is balanced enough by only working with revolvers and requiring an empty hand? Or should another restriction apply, like "with FtH your actions can only be shooting actions", so no combining shooting actions with other actions?

            And "Hip Shooting" negating -2 MAP on FtH. Would it be overpowered to allow it to cancel -2 of MAP on ALL shooting actions? Or would that make "Two Gun Kid" obsolete and be even superior, as you have no off-hand penalty?
            Last edited by Mootaz; 01-09-2019, 06:45 PM.

            Comment


            • #23
              Eh, making Grit only negate penalties instead of be a bonus is a quick change that you'll forget about afterwards and will make the campaign smoother.

              Novice characters have Grit 1, or 2 with True Grit / Harrowed. If they grab Brave because the player knows Fear will be a thing and that it's going to be a short campaign then that's a +3 or +4 to Fear as a starting character.
              That's extremely powerful when Fear was supposed to be a challenge.
              At Veteran, just eight Advances into the campaign, you're seeing Grit values between 3 and 6 with Brave as an option. After eight Advances, a character can have as much as +8 to all Fear checks - yes that requires four Edges (Veteran of the West, Harrowed, True Grit, Brave) but those edges mostly do stuff besides making the character fearless.

              Fear "immunity" is an early to late game problem. Early on it's only specialists that ignore fear; by the mid game, most characters do it; as you progress into Legendary, everyone does it even if they didn't try to. And it's an easy fix.

              Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
              One question regarding your version of "Fan the Hammer". This is strictly superior to "Rapid Fire". Rapid Fire increases RoF on one shot, FtH on all shots. Do you think that this is balanced enough by only working with revolvers and requiring an empty hand? Or should another restriction apply, like "with FtH your actions can only be shooting actions", so no combining shooting actions with other actions?
              My suggestion has such a restriction built in. Because Rapid Fire is a good edge that has other uses - you can combine it with different Actions, you can improve Suppressive Fire with it, etc.
              Also, doing this takes some attention and concentration.

              Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
              And "Hip Shooting" negating -2 MAP on FtH. Would it be overpowered to allow it to cancel -2 of MAP on ALL shooting actions? Or would that make "Two Gun Kid" obsolete and be even superior, as you have no off-hand penalty?
              Hip Shootin', and Improved Hip Shootin', should negate 2 MAP when using Fan the Hammer. Obviously, they'd require that edge.
              Having them negate MAP on all shooting is over powered. Really over powered.
              Last edited by ValhallaGH; 01-09-2019, 06:50 PM.
              I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

              Comment


              • #24
                To be honest, I always thought Aim should be a Combat Edge instead of a Power. It felt like something that any master gunman should be able to do, not something that took a spellcaster to bestow upon him.

                Of course, now Marksman does pretty much exactly that. I'd actually be okay losing the Aim power. Between Marksman and the Aim maneuver, you can already negate six points of called shot or other penalties. Another two seems redundant.

                Comment


                • #25
                  Originally posted by Mootaz View Post
                  Good point. I like the distinction between single-action and double-action, but it probably is not needed.
                  If you wanted to maintain some distinction you could say the Double Tap Edge can't be used with single-action revolvers and the Fan The Hammer Edge can't be used with double-action revolvers. Not much of a distinction I guess but it would serve to steer most players to one or the other Edge instead of taking both. Unless they wanted to carry around both a single-action and a double-action revolver. Doable but seems a little silly. Though I guess less silly with SWADE's "ready weapon is a free action" rule, since characters can freely switch weapons. I so wish they had left readying weapons alone in SWADE. They were just right in SWD.

                  Comment


                  • #26
                    I'm wondering if the above version of Fan the Hammer is too weak.

                    In DLR you could do only one shooting action but with FtH everyone could pump out 6 bullets (with one Wild Dice) at -4 each. With two Edges this penalty was reduced to zero.

                    In SWADE everyone can just do 3 shooting actions, putting out 3 bullets (with 3 Wild Dice), also at -4 for MAP.
                    Contrast this with FtH. To put out 6 Bullets as in DLR you need 3 actions (with 3 Wild Dice), every shot at -6 for MAP and recoil. It takes 3 Edges (plus the FtH Edge in the first place) to get this to zero.
                    So if you have just FtH and shoot twice, you are putting out 4 bullets with 2 Wild Dice at -4. Compared to shooting 3 times normally, that is one additional bullet but one less Wild Dice, and it's costing you ammo and an Edge.

                    So this FtH is worse than the one from DLR and compared to just shooting 3 times in SWADE it also does not do well. Does it really make sense to have an Edge that gives you no tangible benefit until you reach the additional stages of following Edges?

                    What about dropping the edge requirement for FtH and just letting everyone do it with revolvers (with the given requirements that all your actions have to be shooting actions, you need a revolver and a second empty hand)?
                    And still having the additional Edges (Hip Shooting, Imp. Hip Shooting, Rock&Roll) if you want to improve FtH.

                    Comment


                    • Jounichi
                      Jounichi commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Fanning the hammer was originally conceived, at least in Savage Worlds, as a setting rule. I say let that rule stand, as-is. It doesn't break anything. You don't need an Edge to allow for fanning the hammer, unless you want to roll that in with Hip Shooting.
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