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Savage Worlds Shadowrun (5E) Conversion

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  • #16
    Originally posted by MakoTheAdept View Post
    Priority System
    For the Priority System, the intent is to overlay the standard SW character creation system. I could probably more clearly lay that out in the sourcebook.
    Yeah, that wasn't clear. Is it safe to assume characters still get Core Skills too?

    I originally had the races set up to only be chosen in a single Priority. The problem with this is that it forces them to choose their Race at a specific priority and limits their choices. I wanted to expand choices not limit them. I guess I'm not concerned with players having a lot of bennies by taking their race at a higher priority and also taking Luck/Great Luck. It's really not much different than a character with a high Karma Pool/Edge in the standard SR Rules. If they choose to take a lower priority to lower their bennies, that's their choice.
    I understand the desire to provide options and not limit them. I'm just not convinced that using Bennies as the currency for those options is the answer. Since the normal Hindrances-for-bonus-points rule is still in effect, might I suggest dropping the Edge/Hindrance column and rolling it into the Race column?
    ...In other words, if you select a Race Priority above the listed value, you can chose an Edge; taking a lower Priority means you take a Hindrance. Luck /Great Luck /Bad Luck are still on the table as options, these no "Benny-bloat", and it still fulfills the goal of the Priority Table.

    I'm not sure that I agree that Mentor Spirit is too powerful. How does that compare to, say, the Mentalist edge which gives +2 to to any opposed roll for Psionics (i.e. most powers a Psionic character would choose)? What would you change about Mentor Spirit?
    I wouldn't concede that "most" of a psionist's powers are going to be opposed. "Most" is a quantifiable term, and there are plenty of common powers it does not apply to. As for the difference, Mentalist has its kryptonite... another psion with Mentalist, which isn't far-fetched in a setting featuring psionics. A GM can curb abuse by throwing in the occasional psionic opponent. There's no real way to curb a mage that takes Mentor Spirit and applies it to speed and burst, then proceeds to dominate every combat.

    What would I change?
    I think instead of a bonus to the casting roll, I would allow the power itself to be boosted. The Mentor Spirit grants 2 free Power Points that the mage can use to buy Power Modifiers for a short list of select powers. Since you said your players like crunchy rules, compile a list of example spirits and two or three relevant powers.

    I guess I don't agree that Adepts should just be like mages/shamans but more limited with less powers and more PP. That isn't really how they feel in SR. I originally designed them exactly like you are describing, but felt it didn't really represent Adepts accurately. So I designed them to be Super Powers (lower level than standard supers based on the SPC). That's essentially how, IMO, Adepts feel to play. They don't really cast powers like spells, or ever fail to activate a power. It just turns on and they go! I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Now, whether they are balanced is still unknown, but I'm hoping to find out with playtesting.
    Nah, that's cool! I have nothing against the way you did it, I just wanted to point out there's also a "core-friendly" approach to. I would point out that just because a roll is required to activate a power, that doesn't mean it functions like a mage spell. The roll simply represents the random nature of the magic involved. A failure might mean the adept wasn't focused, was mildly distracted, or that some fluke occurred (perhaps an errant spirit used Accident as a prank).

    The one minor critique with your approach is the diversion from core mechanics. The AB provides 8 Power Points, which isn't a big deal, but the Power Points edge provides 4. Again, not really a big deal, but it comes off looking like a shoehorned mechanic. Why 4 points and not the standard 5? Know what I mean?

    The other factor is that the Power Points only act as an intermediary. By themselves they are useless. I'm wondering if handling Adepts as branching series of Edges isn't a better approach. This would resolve some of the redundancy between certain Adept powers and existing Edges, and it would eliminate the inert Power Points from the equation.

    Well, since there wasn't a AB: Miracles, there wasn't a question of whether Holy/Unholy Warrior was available. It wasn't, because it requires AB: Miracles. And I think that's fine, because there really isn't a lot in SR that is defined as "Good" or "Evil". The horrors or bug spirits could be close, but I'd rather just design an Edge that is SR specific than rely on a vague interpretation (in the SR world that is) of what is good or evil.
    Well, to be fair, the whole "good or evil" thing is just flavor text. The mechanic of Holy Warrior involves spending PP to add a bonus to a roll. That stems more from conviction and is irrespective of any sort of alignment.

    But, hey, if you want to go in a different direction, that's fine. I also mentioned that as a viable option. Just be sure to provide an Edge or two specific to the new AB.

    Astral Perception
    This is already a free power for mages/shamans (Starting Powers: 3 (plus Astral Perception)). I like your suggestions for changes to the power, and I'll take a look at making them. As for it being an attack power, the intent is that the character can attack characters that are Astrally present.
    Yeah, I derped about the bonus power comment. I scanned the document and it just didn't register with me that it was already in there. Sorry bout that.

    As for the portion about attacking...
    I think the disconnect I had was that it was written as part of the power description, when it probably should be written as a function of the Astral Plane. In other words, you're "back-loading" some standard game mechanics into the description for a power. Therefore, it reads like a function of the power, rather than the setting itself.

    Sticking with the mantra of Fast! Furious! Fun!, I think I would say: "Anytime a character is Astrally Perceiving or Astrally Projecting, they can affect beings or objects on the Astral Plane." Then handwave all the silly rules that Shadowrun likes to layer on things. Keep things simple. A duel-natured being can cast a power at an astral spirit or a meatbody, but not both at once. A purely astral form can't affect the physical world at all, but all their powers now work on astral beings.

    Sure, it's a diversion from the source material, but I think it keeps things simple and interesting. The multiple conditions and stipulations in the Shadowrun universe are one of it's weak points, IMO.

    Capturing the feel of Shadowrun isn't easy without some of the most integral aspects. I have nowhere near replicated all the mechanics (Essence is gone, no drain rules for Magic, Decking is ridiculously simplified, as is Rigging). Some of the ways that SW deals with certain things are too vague for my group (and I guess I should stress, this is very much a "for my group" thing), and need more definition (Contacts, Fencing Gear, Buying Gear)
    Not replicating nearly all the mechanics is definitely a good thing.

    And I would argue that SR made decking and rigging OVERLY complicated, so "simplifying" the rules is a huge step closer to sanity.

    Hey, man, if this is a pet project that you are just sharing with the rest of us, that's cool! Thanks! My advice is, moving forward, just be clear about what your goals are and what areas you are concerned about. In my experience, folks here like to chime in on what their personal approach would be (*jabs two thumbs at himself*), but if you provide a desired design goal, they'll help you meet it regardless. But asking for blanket feedback would get you fifteen different posts with fifteen different opinions on what to do.

    Hope you found this helpful... or at least insightful.


    • MakoTheAdept
      MakoTheAdept commented
      Editing a comment
      Priority Table is gone! I'm not defending that piece of trash anymore!

      For Adept Power Points and the Extra Power Points Edge, that's from the Super Powers Companion, toned down one level (the "Second String") from Standard Supers. That's where the numbers came from as well as the costs for the Adept powers themselves.

      You have a point about streamlining the Astral Perception stuff. I will take a look at that and see if I can make it clearer and simpler.

      And yes, it definitely is just a pet project. It's an intellectual property that I can't license for Savage Worlds, so I don't really intend anything more than using it for my own group and sharing to people who might want to get some use out of it. There's a ton of work here, and the more people that use it, the better. And if no one uses it but my group, that's fine too. If nothing else, we've sparked some conversation and you all have helped me acclimate to the Savage Worlds Forums. I've been playing the system for a long time, but never really checked here.

      So yes, I probably should have been a bit more specific with what I wanted, but I think I got more than I would have asked for, and that's a good thing.

      As always, thanks again for taking the time and giving the feedback! It's all very much appreciated!

    • MakoTheAdept
      MakoTheAdept commented
      Editing a comment
      Also, I'm thinking about your suggestion for Mentor Spirit and trying to think of something along those lines. Some things I'm tossing around:
      - If using No Power Points, it could offset some (maybe up to -2) of the penalties for casting on a certain set of spells (2?)
      - If using Power Points, similar to the Extra Effort for Gifted for a certain set of spells
      - For either, grant a bonus of Free PP to any Power Modifier for a certain set of spells (similar to what you said).

      I'm open to other options as well.

  • #17
    A very interesting discussion - especially as I've been working, on and off, on my own Shadowrun conversion for quite a while.

    Regarding starting cash, see page 55 in SWADE, the Character Creation Summary. Under Hindrances, 1 point can be used for 1 skill point OR additional starting funds equal to twice the starting funds.


    • #18
      Ok, sourcebook has been updated (Playtest 1.1) with many changes coming from the folks who have provided feedback. Still working on the Archetypes since character creation changed significantly.

      Overview of the changes:
      • Removed the Priority Table
      • Went All-In on No Power Points Setting Rule
      • Made Multiple Languages Setting Rule standard for SWADE
      • Changed all the Races to have the equal Racial Abilities costs (+4)
      • Fixed Trolls not having a Size Positive Ability
      • Added an Optional Rule for Prime Runners, granting 2 bonus Hindrance Points for campaigns that want more flexibility in character creation
      • Added Edge for Drone Warfare (basically a drone version of Beast Bond)
      • Toned down Mentor Spirit Edge
      • Set Starting Funds at 50000 nuyen
      • Added a section for Shadowrun Magic Setting Rules where I detail the powers that can be chosen by magicians, limits to the summon ally power, and astral interactions
      • Added a different drawback for AB: Somatic Magic (Adepts) - the potential of temporarily losing a power if Incapacitated; and removed the worry of activating and tracking how long a power is activated
      • Fixed everywhere that I could find that would need to be changed because of going from using Power Points to No Power Points
      • Changed the number of Foci that can be bound
      • Changed the effects of Power Focus
      • Reworded the Qi Focus to accurately reflect how Adepts buy powers currently.
      • Changed the effects of Weapon Focus
      Take a look when you can and let me know what I might have missed.

      Thanks again for all the feedback!
      Last edited by MakoTheAdept; 05-19-2020, 09:39 PM. Reason: Updated some of the changes


      • #19

        Feedback for v1.1
        I'll keep this as brief as possible.
        • Trolls are not balanced at +4, they are +6.
        • Prime Runners: wording is weird and confusing, talking about "free" Hindrance points. Why not just say characters can take up to 6 points of Hindrances, instead of 4?
        • Power List: There are 54 core powers and mages/shamans have access to 44 of them... 45 if realise that astral projection is just a tweaked-out variety of intangibility. Would be easier for reference purposes if you just list the powers mages don't get.
        • Rather than "re-skinning" detect/conceal arcana, might read better if you just removed it entirely and wrote in astral perception as a brand new power.
        • Ritual Casting should probably be a Setting Rule rather than a Power Modifier. (Also, I might address this mechanic as a separate post later.)
        • Summon Ally /Spirits... whoa boy! A lot to say here, much of it very opinionated. In short, you've made the power weaker and unnecessarily complicated. (I'll likely expand upon this in a separate post.)
        • Foci: Several broken mechanics here. 1) Enchanting and Qi foci have target numbers lower than 4 when creating foci at Rating One. 2) Enchanting foci have the "Skyrim Exploit", where you can make a weak Enchanting foci to help make ever increasingly stronger ones. 3) The trouble of creating a Power focus is not worth it when you can just buy/find a crapton of Reagents.
        • Disenchanting: Why not use the dispel power? It's on the mage list and already does what Disenchanting claims to do.
        • Cyberware: Requiring a random check each time a character gets Wounded to see if a piece of chrome breaks is going to get very tedious very quickly. I'd suggest customizing the Injury table to include an "implant" hit location, since you'll be using Gritty Damage anyway.
        • Cyberdecks: When switching multiple programs at once, is this still considered one action, or is each program-swap its own action? It hard to tell from the parlance.
        • Repairing Matrix Damage: Why not just copy the Healing rules (requires 1 hour per Wound, a success repairs one Wound, a raise repairs two)? The Mr.Fix It Edge already reduces repair time, and any techie worth their salt should have it.
        • Noise: Savage Worlds Adventure Edition scraped exhaustive lists of modifiers for the much simpler Comprehensive Modifiers. Normally they cap out +/-4, but you can always increase a penalty if wireless is spotty AF.
        • Contacts: This should be mentioned in Character Creation.
        I'll leave it here for now since I'm not sure how I feel about all the Matrix stuff. The different Matrix Actions seem fine, but I'm just so disinterested in juggling around 20+ programs to meet my various hacking needs. As a GM, I wouldn't even care if the player lied about which programs she had loaded. This degree of minutiea is why I never wanted to play Shadowrun again. If it works for your table, that's great. If I had to give honest advice, I'd say gut 60-70% of the mechanics and slim it down to just a handful of Matrix Actions.


        • #20
          Hey at least we're not talking about the Priority Table anymore!
          • Trolls cost: Whoops! I've reworked them for the next version.
          • Prime Runners: I can do that. I feared doing something like that would cause people to complain I'm not sticking to SW character creation rules again. Once bitten, twice shy and all that.
          • Power List: Sure, that would cut the list down dramatically. I think the intent was for players to just look at the list and choose from there.
          • Astral Perception: If I make Astral Perception a new power, there will be a contingent of people who say "Detect/Conceal Arcana already does that, why would you make a new power?"
          • Ritual Casting: Sure, I can include Ritual Casting as a Setting Rule instead of a Power Modifier
          • Summon Ally: How is Summon Ally weaker? I'm not sure I understand your thoughts on this. If you can explain why it is weaker, then I can work toward fixing it.
          • Focus Stuff: You get 50 castings of spells with Reagents to equal the cost of Power Focus 1. After that it is cheaper to use the Power Focus. But you can use both, so I'm not sure this is a problem? What's the suggestion to fix? Target numbers are set to be at least 4 for Rating 1 Foci. I should have changed the target number for Qi Focus anyway. If a player wants to waste time and money climbing the Enchanting Focus artificing ladder, I guess it doesn't bother me? You make an Enchanting Focus 1 at TN 4. Then to make an Enchanting Focus 2, you have to spend more resources and time vs. TN 8 with a +1 to your roll. Maybe I should remove ratings from Foci. You never gain more than +1 from a Focus or gain the use of more than one power from Spell or Qi Foci. Qi Foci will have to have a cost based on how many PP the power is, but other than that it is fairly simple and doesn't lead to people being concerned about some ever increasing Focus cold war. It just puts a damper on magicians desire for money after they have 1 of each Focus type. Not sure how to fix that, though.
          • Disenchanting: Probably should have moved the first part of Disenchanting to the Setting Rules for Shadowrun Magic. The second part is for permanently destroying a focus, which Dispelling does not do.
          • Cyberware Damage: Sure, when using Gritty Damage, adding a Cyberware hit location is reasonable and a very good way to handle it. I suppose I can just make Gritty Damage a standard Setting Rule here.
          • Cyberdecks: You swap one program for another as an action. Swapping multiple programs can be done with multiple actions. If you wanted to use all 3 actions to swap 3 programs you could do that with no penalty. I moved the part about switching multiple programs as a single action to the Change Programs matrix action where it should be.
          • Matrix Damage: Sounds good, I'll implement it.
          • Matrix Noise: I included the list more as a reference for what might cause penalties. I'm sure I could easily simplify it.
          • Contacts: Yep, I'll implement it.
          I guess I don't want to remove the spotlight from a player who wants to play a decker. I don't think decking is even half as complicated as running a standard combat in SW. For the most part, Quick Hacking is about as simple as it gets (a matrix attack against the target's Firewall) with success giving you control for a round. If someone has chosen to play a decker and wants all of their tasks to be just a single die roll for everything, quick hacking is all you need, but it seems far more interesting to go play a street samurai combat warrior who gets all these cool options to do their thing. I guess that's just me.

          Thanks for the feedback!
          Last edited by MakoTheAdept; 05-20-2020, 06:59 PM.


          • ValhallaGH
            ValhallaGH commented
            Editing a comment
            As the drum major of the "why did you make a new power?" band, I feel obligated to note that we only assemble if your new power is not substantially different from an existing power. If astral perception is just "I can see magical effects, with a trapping" then we'll be meeting. If astral perception is significantly more than that then you should be fine.

          • MakoTheAdept
            MakoTheAdept commented
            Editing a comment
            I enjoy listening to that band as much as the next guy. Does the band meet if I made Astral Perception a new power or would they let it slide as it is currently connected to Detect/Conceal Arcana?

        • #21
          Originally posted by MakoTheAdept View Post
          Hey at least we're not talking about the Priority Table anymore!
          Ya know, I actually thought it was alright. It just had a few rough patches where it rubbed up on standard CharGen the wrong way.

          Power List: Sure, that would cut the list down dramatically. I think the intent was for players to just look at the list and choose from there.
          Of course. But from a reference standpoint, it's easier to look through a list of 10 powers than 45.

          Astral Perception: If I make Astral Perception a new power, there will be a contingent of people who say "Detect/Conceal Arcana already does that, why would you make a new power?"
          Screw those guys!
          But seriously, while the general function remains the same, the mechanics are quite different. Besides, there aren't even any Conceal rules in the rewrite (though there probably should be, for Masking). I think making astral perception a new, custom power would be prudent.

          Summon Ally: How is Summon Ally weaker? I'm not sure I understand your thoughts on this. If you can explain why it is weaker, then I can work toward fixing it.
          The core power conjures/creates an ally that obeys your every command for the duration. Your version introduces Services, with a base of 1 Service and two different methods for obtaining more; one of which is spending more Power Points.

          It's weaker because, as I understand it, once you issue a direct command, it uses up a Service. It's needlessly complicated because you state that fighting for the duration is one Service, even if the Spirit uses it's powers. But then commanding the Spirit to use a power is a Service. So then who controls the Spirit? The GM? Ostensibly it's the mage or shaman who summoned it, but then the distinction between the Spirit using a power of it's own volition and the caster "commanding" the spirit becomes blurred.

          This harkens back to the concept of converting the feel, but not the mechanics.

          Services are a conceit of the source mechanics, but they aren't really needed to capture the feel of summoning elementals and binding them to your will. Those details are easily abstracted by virtue of the power's Duration. Casters can extend the duration at will, which is just an abstraction of having more Services. I'd even port over Permanent modifier (from zombie) to create Bound Spirits.

          The Extra Power modifier is fine, as Spirits are fairly good just at the base level. Paying extra to get some cool new special abilities is perfectly legit, IMO.

          The last thing I would suggest is to replace all the "R"s and "R+1"s with some hard stats on creature blocks. This would mean building five varieties of each spirit, one per Rank. It's additional work for you, but this would eliminate the need for players and GMs to do extra math later. Simply scroll to the creature block and they're good to go.

          Disenchanting: Probably should have moved the first part of Disenchanting to the Setting Rules for Shadowrun Magic. The second part is for permanently destroying a focus, which Dispelling does not do.
          Just add an addendum to dispel that allows for destroying foci.

          I guess I don't want to remove the spotlight from a player who wants to play a decker. I don't think decking is even half as complicated as running a standard combat in SW. For the most part, Quick Hacking is about as simple as it gets (a matrix attack against the target's Firewall) with success giving you control for a round. If someone has chosen to play a decker and wants all of their tasks to be just a single die roll for everything, quick hacking is all you need, but it seems far more interesting to go play a street samurai combat warrior who gets all these cool options to do their thing. I guess that's just me.!
          The Quick Hacking was the part I really liked, and I think a majority of the Matrix Actions can stay. It's just the idea of having to juggle programs around that I, personally, can do without. But if that's what your players like, by all means leave it in. After all, you said you're doing the conversion primarily for your table.

          Although, I wasn't suggesting to make hacking bland or boring, just more streamlined. As I'm sure you're aware, Savage Worlds heavily relies on Edges to add uniqueness and flair to builds. Converting some of the program stats into Edges is a great way to keep grid-running interesting. The advantage to this approach over programs is that Edges are naturally metered through Advancement. You're less likely to get the "everyman" hacker who simply buys every program on the market. You wind up with a variety of specialized hacker archetypes: the stealthy data-thief, the ban-hammer cybercombat specialist, the sabateur who is skilled at placing hidden databombs... the drone-rigger, et al.

          Anyway, thanks for being a champ and putting up with my idiot opinions. I'm still going to do a deepdive on Rituals, which have more flaws than I initially estimated. Sit tight for that one.

          Last edited by Deskepticon; 05-20-2020, 08:09 PM.


          • MakoTheAdept
            MakoTheAdept commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks for the discussion!

            Power List: I was originally listing with the conceit that players may not be familiar with the Powers in SWADE and could just choose based on the Power name. I suppose even with that conceit, new players will need to look through the SWADE powers to know exactly what a Power does, so listing just the restricted powers isn't necessarily any worse of a decision.

            Astral Perception: I mention in the book that metamagics would be handled with Edges (which is where Masking) would be, but haven't actually created said metamagic Edges (because they aren't in the core SR5 book). It was a future endeavor that I haven't taken on yet because I'm trying to get the basics nailed down first. I suppose I should just create it as its own power, since it is pretty unique and just remove Detect/Conceal Arcana from the available powers list as there is really no matching power in SR. There are other detect spells in SR, but nothing that specifically detects magic (it's supposed to be handled by Astral Perception).

            Summon Ally: Now that you mention it, I could handle all the specific services stuff with a common set of powers on each spirit type (i.e. an ability to aid spellcasting and one to sustain spells). I think you've convinced me to get rid of services. The only major hurdle is the penalty to maintain power for having a spirit summoned, but maybe that's the price to pay to have them around. With that in mind, I'll take a look at the Pernanent Power Modifier and see how that may work.

            Decking: I agree that Edges are a good way to differentiate and specialize. I planned to add more Edges for both Deckers and Riggers, but I just haven't gotten that far yet. And yes, it is true that my group are loot/gear fanatics, particularly when it comes to Shadowrun. They enjoy the customization of gear and specific stats, so having a list of programs that they get to play with is something that would be missed if it weren't there. A option for groups that want less customizing for programs is to only allow them to be changed between runs. Then you have a maximum of 6 (if you have the best Deck in the game) programs to worry about and things won't change on the fly.

            Looking forward to your Ritual analysis!

            Thanks again!

          • MakoTheAdept
            MakoTheAdept commented
            Editing a comment
            I think removing the services from Spirits isn't the worst thing in the world, as it would prevent the need to keep a tally of services granted and used. The main thing that I see being a problem is that some of the Spirit abilities are really pretty powerful without some limits. For example, an Air Spirit can grant +2 to Stealth rolls and +2" movement for a number of people equal to its Rating. And it can just do it constantly while the magician maintains the Summon Ally power. That's probably a heck of a lot more powerful than the mage casting one single other spell. It probably needs to be explicitly stated that Spirits maintaining a power suffer -1 to all other rolls per maintained power.

          • Deskepticon
            Deskepticon commented
            Editing a comment
            MakoTheAdept Re: Spirits
            Well, the ability doesn't need to be that powerful. You can easily change it to +1 Stealth, +1 Pace. There's also the option of simply not giving the ability to low-Rank spirits. As I mentioned above, it may be a good idea to create individual stat-blocks for each Rank of Spirit. Novice spirits might not receive that ability at all, while Seasoned & Veteran get it at +1. Only Heroic and Legendary spirits use it at the full +2.

            It's just an idea.

        • #22
          As promised, here's my feedback on Ritual Casting.

          Initially was looking at the 1.0 version using the normal casting rules, and that showed Ritual Casting to be pretty lopsided. Using No Power Points introduces some self-correction, but there still are a few hiccups.

          Ritual Casting takes a number of hours to cast equal to the total Power Points of the entire Power being used divided by the number of magicians involved in the casting, rounded up. ...
          Range is determined from the location of the Ritual
          using the base Range of the Power. Each increase by a factor of 10 costs +1 Power Point as a special Power Modifier (i.e. Base Range x 10 is +1, Base Range x 100 is +2, etc.). ...
          Each additional member of the ritual provides +1 to
          the arcane skill roll to activate the power up to a maximum bonus equal to the leader’s arcane skill die type.
          Unless the ritual involves a high number of support mages, this formula doesn't really make a power any stronger. See these examples:
          • A single mage casts a 3 PP power as a ritual at a target 1 mile away (1760 yards, or 880"). The mage has Smarts d10, and because the Range is between 100 and 1000 game inches, the PP cost increases by +2, for a total of 5 PP. Therefore, it takes the mage five hours to cast and requires five regeants. She must also be her own spotter, so she astral travels to the target and completes the ritual with a -3 casting penalty.
          By contrast, the mage could have simply traveled to the target and cast the spell normally, saving herself 5 hours, 5 regeants, and 2 Power Points (rolling at -2).

          Things get a little better with group castings.
          • Four mages are working together to cast an 20 PP power. The ritual will take five hours to complete (20÷4 mages) and each participant contributes 5 PP... which I guess means the ritual casting roll is made at -3, rather than -10. Incidentally, this gets canceled by the +3 bonus from the three contributors.
          Okay, now let's get crazy. A mage-gang wants to wipeout an entire rival gang in one swoop.
          • Fifteen mages work together on a 300 PP mega-spell. It will take them 20 hours to complete it, each contributing 20 PP (-10 penalty). The rival gangers are spread out around their base, so multiple spotters are needed, significantly increasing the chance of detection. The ritual leader has a Spellcasting die of d12, so the fifteen helpers add +12 to the roll, for a total of +2 (after subtracting the normal casting penalty).
          This example has almost no drawback except for the moderately high chance of detection and super long casting time.

          To summarize, these rules are a complete trap for single casters, but get better with a large number of contributors. Casting modifiers get skewed, however, if the number of participants and the PP total become disproportionate.

          Range is determined from the location of the Ritual
          using the base Range of the Power. Each increase by a factor of 10 costs +1 Power Point as a special Power Modifier (i.e. Base Range x 10 is +1, Base Range x 100 is +2, etc.).
          Pop Quiz! The power used in a ritual has range of Smarts×2 and the lead caster's Smarts die is d8. His target is 3.5 miles away from the lodge. How many extra PP get added to the total?

          You don't need to answer that. The point was to illustrate that the math is unnecessarily involved and has no real benefit over a fixed distance table (i.e., out to one mile= +1, out to ten miles= +2, etc.).

          I think an even better approach would be to base range off the spotter's location. If the spotter wants to hang back a bit, the Range Power Modifer can be added to the ritual. This makes being a spotter a more important task, as well as a tactical one.

          Multiple instances of the same spell can be cast
          through a Ritual Casting, each with different targets, provided the spotter can see all of them at the time of the Ritual’s completion.
          I'm assuming that powers with modifiers that add additional targets can be used normally, so the above is for dropping two or three Blast Templates at once. No mention of them being Multi-Actions though. Is it only limited to instances of the same power, or can multiple different powers be cast during the same ritual?


          • Deskepticon
            Deskepticon commented
            Editing a comment
            MakoTheAdept No sweat on the feedback. I like combing through stuff like this anyway. I must admit, you've given me a few new perspectives on things that I might incorporate in my own games, so the least I can do is share my own thoughts.

            It pains me to say this because it's obvious you put quite a bit of time and effort into creating these rules, but I think Ritual Casting needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. I firmly believe that a lone caster should have the ability to boost her own spells beyond their normal function. That alone is grounds for a rewrite, in my opinion.

            I don't have any solid suggestions at the moment though. I'll need to brainstorm, crunch some numbers, and run a few mock playtests first, but I'll see what I can do. Until then I'll open the floor to anyone else who might have ideas.


            As for multiple powers, I think the standard Multi-Action rules work fine. Although I do think there may be room for custom, Ritual-only Power Modifiers. For example, one that repeats a power's effect for +N Power Points as part of the same single action (where N = the total cost of the parent power). This would essentially allow you to create a rapid-fire bolt power by stacking the effect 5 or 6 times (basically giving it a higher RoF). Or allow blast to drop additional Blast Templates. As a single action, the additional roll(s) would share a Wild Die (just like RoF or Frenzy).

            I gotta run now, but in the meantime search the forums for Ritual rules. There's been a few over the years that you might be able to mine ideas from. There is one set of rules written by ValhallaGH that I really liked. I don't have time to get the link right now, but it should pop up with a search.

            Good luck!

          • ValhallaGH
            ValhallaGH commented
            Editing a comment
            The mentioned ritual magic rules.
            Not as simple or fast as I'd like but I still feel pretty good about them.

          • MakoTheAdept
            MakoTheAdept commented
            Editing a comment
            Taking a look at the rules from ValhallaGH, I don't think they are going to work for this conversion, mostly because of NPP. Since there's an increase in costs to grant a bonus to the arcane skill roll, it's a bit of circular logic when using NPP. Essentially, for every -1 to the Skill roll because of NPP, you'd get +2 to the skill roll. I think it's nice for a system that is using PP, but probably won't work here.

            With that said, I've got some ideas and will be putting together my update shortly.

            Thanks again to everyone for their feedback!

        • #23
          Playtest version 1.3 is now ready.

          The changes are mostly in the Magic Section:
          • Rewrote spirit powers to be more consistent with spellcasting (if the power could be replicated with a spell).
          • Ritual Casting is now a Dramatic Task with more clearly detailed rules for determining difficulty and effects.
          • Astral Perception is its own power now.
          • Rearranged Power Modifiers to be detailed under the Power listing.
          • Replaced Available Power Types list with Restricted Power Types list.
          There might be other minor typographical changes in the magic section.

          Looking forward to seeing what you think!



          • #24
            Hi, I noticed on page 4 you say characters can take up to 6 points in hindrances "as is standard for SWADE", quoting SWADE p8. This should be 4 points if as SWADE


            • MakoTheAdept
              MakoTheAdept commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks! That's definitely a typo. I changed it to:

              "All characters may take up to 6 points of Hindrances instead of the standard limit of 4 points."

              Thank you!

              Edit: This is a change from SWADE, as suggested by Deskepticon. The intent is to give players more options for customization in character creation.