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  • Savage Worlds Shadowrun (5E) Conversion

    I posted this conversion to the official Facebook group and somehow it was removed. Not sure what the issue is, but I’ll post here now and see what everyone thinks.

    In any case, this conversion has rules for running the matrix, rigging, and the specifics of Shadowrun magic. I hope this is useful for someone looking for a SWADE version of Shadowrun. Let me know what you think.

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...xk9DL6QulkoVFi

  • #2
    Some quick notes on the first skimming of the text. NOTE: I never played or looked at SR4 or SR5 due to changes in both game design and tech concepts.

    The priorities chart is off based on SR intent. Humans should always have the option to assign the lowest priority to race without penalty. Also, there are five categories but only four priority levels.

    Races: Either trolls are underpowered (over-distributed or over-represented among shadowrunners) or elves should also be a +2 race.

    Taken together, I would simply abandon it and have balanced races and a baseline starting cash of 100k. This allows higher and lower resources via the Rich/Filthy Edges and Poverty Hindrance and magic use is a separate choice via AB Edges.

    AB:
    • Why didn't you make Shamanism AB: Miracles?
    • The name AB: Somatic Magic made it difficult to find the Adept's AB. It seems you want them to be AB: Gifted using SPC, so why have their Powers dormant? My concept of the adept is the magic analog to the street samurai; magic enhancement doing the same game effects to cyberware. If the Powers must be activated, can a mage On Hold use dispel to stop the activation or cancel them later? With no Arcane Skill, what does the adept use for the opposed roll?
    • No aspected magicians? It is a fair starting point for simplicity.
    No Power Points: Why do you use both Power Points and NPP Setting Rule? Given SR's focus, I would go with NPP all the way and combine it with other factors.
    • Backlash occurs on a 1 on a casting roll, not on Critical Failures. Thus, the spell could go off and the caster gets Fatigued.
    • No rank restriction on Powers.
    • Backlash when using an over-Ranked Power makes the Backlash deal a Wound.

    Comment


    • #3
      Welcome to the forum!

      I don't book faces, so I'm speculating, but I would imagine that the rules for posting conversions on the FB group are different than the rules for posting them here. If you accidentally violated those rules (or merely brushed against them and someone raised an IP concern) then it makes sense that your post would have been removed.

      Regardless, you asked for thoughts. In no particular order:
      • SMGs should do the same damage as the base caliber of the weapon. A 9mm pistol does 2d6, and a 9mm SMG should do 2d6. Similarly, a 12.7mm SMG should deal the same 2d8 damage as the 12.7mm pistol.
      • Why are Trolls the same Size as everyone else? They should be Size 1 (6' to 8' tall and 250# to 500#, with Small and Brawny outliers).
      • The Smaller and Big abilities are ridiculous, in context. Dwarfs might be a foot shorter than the average human but they are within the range of human height, and their hands are plenty large enough to use standard keyboards and firearms. Trolls in the real world would have to shop at Big & Tall stores, unless they went to Texas where a shocking percentage of men are two to six inches over six feet tall; in the world of ShadowRun, they are the big end of the standard size range.
      • I can see why you wanted to do the Priority Table, but it offers a false game balance. Just bump all the races to the same power level (+2, +4, +6, or more) and you can delete that confusing section. Flash Gordon lets players be humans, bird men, or twelve-foot tall giants, and the races all balance at a +4 that fits the style and tone of that setting.
      • Multiple Languages as Skill Points is an idea that will not die, no matter how often I point out that it is terrible, that it makes Smarts essential, that it is confusing, or that it isn't fun. If you want characters to be bad at their free languages then just make them start at d4 instead of d6. If the player wants a character to be good at a specific secondary language then they can spend points on it.
      • Heh. Being a Citizen is a hindrance. This amuses me greatly. Because the SIN-less are obviously non-citizens with no rights beyond the local regime's views on basic human rights.
      • Mages and Shamans are the same, in these rules. Same Arcane Skill, same power list, same starting powers, same starting power points. There is no difference between them. Which is bad.
      • Screw all this new "spirits" crap, I'm just going to use summon ally for allied Extras that do what I say until they poof out of existence. If they could use all their abilities, Spirits would be great, but since the summoner can only get one or two uses out of them (reliably, hypothetically could get 9 billion services from a single spirit), it's not worth worrying about.
      • Foci are campaign-destroying. They're difficult to make, but a +4 to all Spellcasting rolls is instant victory in most Run scenarios. Similarly, a +4 to all Hacking or Shooting rolls makes those challenges trivial.
      • Nothing about "Somatic Magic" needs that wonky mechanic. Arcane Background (Gifted), using the Focus skill, with a trapping trade-off that limits Range to Self but lets the adept activate one power as a free action and reduces the PP cost (as fits the Limitations).
      • Delete all references to No Power Points. The Shorting rules already cover what you're trying to make this do.
      • Your Archetypes don't follow your complex rules.
      • My eyes glazed over the gear chapter, when they weren't trying to roll out (a bow and arrow that hits like Ma Deuce!?), but what I spot checked seemed solidly designed. Really weird power balance - like dermal armor only being +1 or +2 but an armored trench coat is +3 - but solidly designed.
      Good luck and have fun!
      I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

      Comment


      • Radecliffe
        Radecliffe commented
        Editing a comment
        paladin2019 I'm not fixing anything, CGL is. In 5th edition trolls average 2.5 meters and 335 kg (pg 380 Shadowrun 5th edition.) That seems to squarely fit into size 2 territory, no "fixing unrealistic figures" necessary. According to the SWADE core rules size 2 is 501 - 1000 lbs and 8-9 feet tall. Just sayin.

      • paladin2019
        paladin2019 commented
        Editing a comment
        "In 5th edition trolls average 2.5 meters and 335 kg"

        Why didn't you lead with this. I have repeated that all of my commentary comes from nothing newer than SR3. I have stated clearly that if details have changed that my comments might be invalid. And you waited to say that? Please, pretty please, provide the full context so we don't waste comments.

        SR5 has shorter, heavier trolls. OP is converting SR5. Thus, shorter, heavier trolls, that align cleanly with Size 2, are appropriate. See? Easy.

      • Radecliffe
        Radecliffe commented
        Editing a comment
        paladin2019 Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

    • #4
      Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
      Some quick notes on the first skimming of the text. NOTE: I never played or looked at SR4 or SR5 due to changes in both game design and tech concepts.

      The priorities chart is off based on SR intent. Humans should always have the option to assign the lowest priority to race without penalty. Also, there are five categories but only four priority levels.

      Races: Either trolls are underpowered (over-distributed or over-represented among shadowrunners) or elves should also be a +2 race.

      Taken together, I would simply abandon it and have balanced races and a baseline starting cash of 100k. This allows higher and lower resources via the Rich/Filthy Edges and Poverty Hindrance and magic use is a separate choice via AB Edges.

      AB:
      • Why didn't you make Shamanism AB: Miracles?
      • The name AB: Somatic Magic made it difficult to find the Adept's AB. It seems you want them to be AB: Gifted using SPC, so why have their Powers dormant? My concept of the adept is the magic analog to the street samurai; magic enhancement doing the same game effects to cyberware. If the Powers must be activated, can a mage On Hold use dispel to stop the activation or cancel them later? With no Arcane Skill, what does the adept use for the opposed roll?
      • No aspected magicians? It is a fair starting point for simplicity.
      No Power Points: Why do you use both Power Points and NPP Setting Rule? Given SR's focus, I would go with NPP all the way and combine it with other factors.
      • Backlash occurs on a 1 on a casting roll, not on Critical Failures. Thus, the spell could go off and the caster gets Fatigued.
      • No rank restriction on Powers.
      • Backlash when using an over-Ranked Power makes the Backlash deal a Wound.
      Humans being able to take Priority E for Race without penalty isn't really true, considering how the Special Attribute points work in Shadowrun. You get a more as you take the priority higher and usually a higher Edge attribute. The closest representative to that is Bennies.

      The Troll point cost is wrong. They are a +4 race. My mistake.

      I was really only looking for a limitation for Adept's powers similar to having one's Cyberware be damaged and therefore disabled. If an Adept's powers are on all the time and can never be turned off by anyone else, they don't suffer penalties to being healed by magic, and they don't need to spend ridiculous nuyen to get their abilities, they are objectively better than a Street Samurai. I'm open to other suggestions to limit them. I originally designed them using the standard power system (not the SPC), with a Power Modifier allowing them to activate self targeted powers as a free action. It just didn't feel like an adept to me, but maybe that's what I should go back to for balance sake.

      AB: Shamanism essentially IS Miracles, but Miracles doesn't sound like a skill in Shadowrun. I suppose that I could add some descriptive text detailing the need to follow certain rituals and such, but it isn't a religion. Essentially, it is treated the same as Hermetic magicians in SR except for a different linked attribute, which is how it is represented in my sourcebook. Spirit instead of Smarts.

      Aspected magicians aren't really in the core book, but you could represent it by not taking the Astral Projection power.

      I didn't want to go the NPP route because I feel like it makes using powers essentially weaker than using powers. It is harder to succeed and much harder to succeed with a Raise. Maybe I should just remove the combined NPP aspect from the book. When they run out of points, they "have taken drain and cannot cast anymore" until they rest. That's probably fine.

      Edited to Add: Thanks for the feedback! Thank you for taking the time to take a look.
      Last edited by MakoTheAdept; 05-17-2020, 03:21 PM.

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Welcome to the forum!

        I don't book faces, so I'm speculating, but I would imagine that the rules for posting conversions on the FB group are different than the rules for posting them here. If you accidentally violated those rules (or merely brushed against them and someone raised an IP concern) then it makes sense that your post would have been removed.

        Regardless, you asked for thoughts. In no particular order:
        • SMGs should do the same damage as the base caliber of the weapon. A 9mm pistol does 2d6, and a 9mm SMG should do 2d6. Similarly, a 12.7mm SMG should deal the same 2d8 damage as the 12.7mm pistol.
        • Why are Trolls the same Size as everyone else? They should be Size 1 (6' to 8' tall and 250# to 500#, with Small and Brawny outliers).
        • The Smaller and Big abilities are ridiculous, in context. Dwarfs might be a foot shorter than the average human but they are within the range of human height, and their hands are plenty large enough to use standard keyboards and firearms. Trolls in the real world would have to shop at Big & Tall stores, unless they went to Texas where a shocking percentage of men are two to six inches over six feet tall; in the world of ShadowRun, they are the big end of the standard size range.
        • I can see why you wanted to do the Priority Table, but it offers a false game balance. Just bump all the races to the same power level (+2, +4, +6, or more) and you can delete that confusing section. Flash Gordon lets players be humans, bird men, or twelve-foot tall giants, and the races all balance at a +4 that fits the style and tone of that setting.
        • Multiple Languages as Skill Points is an idea that will not die, no matter how often I point out that it is terrible, that it makes Smarts essential, that it is confusing, or that it isn't fun. If you want characters to be bad at their free languages then just make them start at d4 instead of d6. If the player wants a character to be good at a specific secondary language then they can spend points on it.
        • Heh. Being a Citizen is a hindrance. This amuses me greatly. Because the SIN-less are obviously non-citizens with no rights beyond the local regime's views on basic human rights.
        • Mages and Shamans are the same, in these rules. Same Arcane Skill, same power list, same starting powers, same starting power points. There is no difference between them. Which is bad.
        • Screw all this new "spirits" crap, I'm just going to use summon ally for allied Extras that do what I say until they poof out of existence. If they could use all their abilities, Spirits would be great, but since the summoner can only get one or two uses out of them (reliably, hypothetically could get 9 billion services from a single spirit), it's not worth worrying about.
        • Foci are campaign-destroying. They're difficult to make, but a +4 to all Spellcasting rolls is instant victory in most Run scenarios. Similarly, a +4 to all Hacking or Shooting rolls makes those challenges trivial.
        • Nothing about "Somatic Magic" needs that wonky mechanic. Arcane Background (Gifted), using the Focus skill, with a trapping trade-off that limits Range to Self but lets the adept activate one power as a free action and reduces the PP cost (as fits the Limitations).
        • Delete all references to No Power Points. The Shorting rules already cover what you're trying to make this do.
        • Your Archetypes don't follow your complex rules.
        • My eyes glazed over the gear chapter, when they weren't trying to roll out (a bow and arrow that hits like Ma Deuce!?), but what I spot checked seemed solidly designed. Really weird power balance - like dermal armor only being +1 or +2 but an armored trench coat is +3 - but solidly designed.
        Good luck and have fun!
        Yeah, apparently on Facebook, you need to "file the serial numbers off" and I didn't do that, so it was definitely my fault. I'm not mad about it.

        -For SMGs, I pretty much just used the SWADE book weapons values for reference.
        -Yeah, Trolls have the Big Hindrance, but I didn't know if I should assign a Race point value for having a different Size. The Race ability tables don't really cover it.
        -Shadowrun handles the size changes with Lifestyle costs, and I was aiming to do the same.
        -Yeah, I figured the Priority table would be a big point of contention, and I understand why. I just wanted to give a bit more leeway to designing characters, and it was a way to fit in being able to choose a race with more design points than standard. I'm probably going to keep it for my group until we playtest it more and get rid of it if it becomes problematic.
        -I really wasn't worried about multiple languages until I started working on the Archetypes and found that everyone knew some second or third language at some level. I'll take your suggestion and see how to make it better.
        -Mages and Shamans have different linked attributes for Spellcasting. That's essentially how they are in Shadowrun. There's lip service to their being differences in rituals, which I could certainly allude to as well, but there's isn't much difference.
        -I can certainly take a look at limiting Foci. They are such a big part of magic that I don't want to remove them entirely. I'm open to ideas on how to change them but still retain the Shadowrun uniqueness.
        -AB: Gifted seems a lot weaker than just buying Cyberware. Adepts would almost never be chosen if that were the case. As I stated above, I had originally used a different concept using regular powers as opposed to SPC, but decided that it wasn't really Adept-like to have a Power skill and potentially fail in turning on their powers. Still open to ideas though.
        -Yeah, I think I will remove the NPP aspect. It isn't really needed.
        -I was pretty analytical about following the Priority table. Can you tell me where you see that the Archetypes don't follow it correctly? (Of course, SR is notorious for their Archetypes not following their standard build rules, but I wasn't going for that level of simulation).
        -Shadowrun Gear lists are always ridiculous and that is just from the Core Book. The balance is standard for Shadowrun. In 5E a lined coat gives you 9 or 12 Armor (can’t remember offhand) and Dermal Plating gives a maximum of 6. Since it can be combined, I'm trying to keep Toughness levels from being out of control.

        Thanks for the feedback! Thank you for taking the time to take a look.
        Last edited by MakoTheAdept; 05-17-2020, 03:44 PM.

        Comment


        • Zadmar
          Zadmar commented
          Editing a comment
          By the way, filing the serial numbers off isn't just a Facebook thing. Manuel Sambs created a pretty extensive Savage Shadowrun conversion, it became increasingly popular, and he was eventually told by PEG that he had to delete it (not the posts, but the actual conversion itself). Sooner or later they'll tell you the same thing.

          I would strongly advise filing the serial numbers off sooner rather than later.

        • MakoTheAdept
          MakoTheAdept commented
          Editing a comment
          Weird! Well if I have to take it down, just message me and I'll provide a link.

      • #6
        Size is a standard racial ability. See page 19. To translate Size into description, see the Size & Scale chart on page 179.
        Being a different Scale is outside the scope of racial abilities. But trolls are not the size of a Ford Focus, so they they aren't Large scale.

        Priority is a weird and clunky rule. If it works for you and yours then great, but it's a weird rule that completely alters character creation - instead of being a task with a bunch of parts that need to be completed, it becomes an order-of-operations line with big advantages for whatever goes first.

        From my SR experience (limited though it is), Multiple Languages should be a campaign rule. Some campaigns are in linguistic mono-cultures, with only exotic foreigners or multi-lingual weirdos knowing more than one language. Other campaigns are in polyglot regions.

        SR describes shamanism and hermetic magic as different skills. You could have swapped Shamans over to Faith (Spirit) and avoided the confusion.
        At minimum, there should be a trapping difference. If a shaman is throwing around lighting bolts instead of acid then it doesn't feel like SR to me.

        Well, yeah. Adepts are generally inferior to StreetSam. That's a fundamental problem with the absurd power of cyberware in the setting, and why StreetSam are still the dominant archetype. But Adepts are still competitive.
        Gifted can, potentially, let the Adept do all kinds of things that cyberware can't match. Like use the perfect Combat Edge for the situation (warrior's gift), walk on walls and ceilings (wall walker), instantly heal injuries (healing), or survive a hostile environment for a half-dozen hours (environmental protection). Not to mention the power of arcane protection, detect/conceal arcana, protection, and smite - everyone is impressed by your ability to put your fist through an APC (smite with AP 6 and HW). Is a cyber troll with a minigun still better at killing? Probably. But an Adept can be a versatile and highly effective character.

        I'll think about Foci. But a blanket +X to a single skill is strong, especially a combat skill. Yeah, they're expensive and time consuming but if you can get one then you're on easy street.
        I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

        Comment


        • #7
          So, to repeat, my POV is SR3 and nothing newer. If things like Priority E humans are hindranced vs Priority > E humans, I'm glad I never advanced past that. </rant>

          Re-read AB: Miracles, SWADE p148. Everything in there screams Shaman. You can change the name and such, but references to Vow and Obligation and the implication that a GM will set Power lists for different AB in the setting make it what you want.

          Adept Powers have always been a constant on thing, like cyberware. SR balances the two with cash vs. Magic with similar limits. While cyberware can be damaged, it can also be replaced fairly easily. Adepts, like everyone with a Magic attribute in SR, risks having that damaged by non-magical healing. That means adepts risk losing Powers permanently when they aren't Healing naturally or via the healing Power. There's really no recovery from that loss of ability without supplemental material (initiation, natch). But if you want adept Powers to be disruptable, adepts need an Arcane Skill to use in the contested roll. Otherwise, their d4-2 is going to fail 12 times out of 13.

          (Aspected magicians are in the core SR3 book, that's why I mentioned them. All about my POV vs. yours. But they are really a thing SWADE wouldn't do well with the way it balances abilities. Not much else needs to be said about them.)

          And regarding Size, I didn't notice their size. My sources say they average almost 3 meters tall. They should at least have Size 1 instead of Toughness 1 (which still increases Toughness) as a racial ability. (For reference, Size 1 is a foot and change too short for their average, but perfect for weight. ValhallaGH's Brawny as an outlier is perfect.) Small dwarves are equally silly. However, a point of Reduced Pace is perfect.

          As a matter of fact, I can't get behind a lot of the penalties listed. Agilitiy and Vigor penalties for dwarves and elves respectively are just not a thing (from SR3, at least).

          Here's a 2-point big guys with horns race
          +4 Vigor 2 die steps
          +2 Strength 1 die step
          +1 Size 1 (Max Str d12+2)
          -1 no Common Knowledge
          -2 Smarts penalty
          -2 Big

          For a thuggish race, I'd replace a dwarf's tough with Strong and Reduced Pace with Mean.

          And All Thumbs is probably a Major Hindrance in an ultra-tech setting. Elves could have a Quirk for snobbery, even if by reputation rather than fact (ie, if you mean to play against type, you don't get your Benny if you're humble when not being so would throw an extra obstacle in your path).

          EDIT:
          I'd keep NPP, myself. It feels more SR with it's lack of hard limits.

          Regarding the priority system, if you use it, you also need to remove the Young and Elderly Hindrances. They are additional ways SWADE explains certain choices in assigning priorities. Elderly, for example, explains high skills and lower attributes, while Young can represent assigning low priorities to both. Basically, unless your goal is to completely rejigger the entire SWADE character creation process, I'd drop it.

          Regarding SMGs, everything in SWADE is slinging 9mm or .45, both of which also do the same damage as the pistols. For SR specific examples, the Uzi III fires medium pistol ammo. In SR, the HK227 used heavy pistol ammo, but the re-implementation of FirePowerTM ammo in SR2 to only and always heavy pistols shifted the power from 7 to 9 (more than rifles) for heavy pistols but it remained 7 for SMGs nominally shooting the same stuff . Bottom line, if you adapt the HK227 or Ingram Smartgun with their original concepts, they are probably using the same heavy pistol ammo as the Deagle and should do 2d8 (however ridiculous that value is in context).
          Last edited by paladin2019; 05-17-2020, 04:21 PM.

          Comment


          • #8
            Oh shoot I must have completely missed the Size racial stuff. I’ll take a look for that and make some adjustments.

            I will probably just use the standard multiple languages campaign rule now that I think about it. It’s more complicated than it needs to be as it is. It’s just languages, nothing to get into the weeds about.

            i can certainly change the skill name for Power activation for Shamanic magic if that helps. I left trappings vague because I feel like that’s one of the things that should be left to player choice. If the character is an eagle shaman throwing lightning, works for me!

            I can post the original rules for adepts that I had. It was complete and was essentially just Arcane Background Magic with a unique Power Modifier for instant activation on self targeted powers. I still personally feel like Super Powers Companion style abilities are closer to how adepts are in SR but I can appreciate people not liking a new style of powers that aren’t detailed in SWADE yet. And probably not commonly mixed with regular AB. And maybe after some playtesting I’ll find it doesn’t work either.

            And I truly do appreciate all the time you are taking to look at this work. I don’t feel insulted in the slightest. I wanted to put it out there to get feedback since we haven’t had a chance to playtest, and I’m thankful for all the insight people are giving. So thanks again! I love having this discussion!

            Edit: I plan to address the spirit comment eventually. The long and short of it is that the intent is that you blow a huge amount of PP for extra services while out of combat and then rest up to get your PP back. Since they stick around until dawn or dusk you have a fairly powerful ally with you all the time. Or you can summon one in combat and just use 1 service to say kill those guys over there!
            Last edited by MakoTheAdept; 05-17-2020, 04:48 PM.

            Comment


            • paladin2019
              paladin2019 commented
              Editing a comment
              Oh, I think we are all for superhero style adepts. I, at least, am in violent agreement as to that being how they should work. My concern is how non-constant Powers with no associated Arcane Skill, interact with the system, particularly when it comes to dispel.

            • MakoTheAdept
              MakoTheAdept commented
              Editing a comment
              Could maybe use an attribute as the opposing value if there is a need to determine dispelling. SR 5 doesn’t really allow adept powers to be dispelled, so it may not be a thing to worry about. What do you think?

          • #9
            Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
            So, to repeat, my POV is SR3 and nothing newer. If things like Priority E humans are hindranced vs Priority > E humans, I'm glad I never advanced past that. </rant>

            Re-read AB: Miracles, SWADE p148. Everything in there screams Shaman. You can change the name and such, but references to Vow and Obligation and the implication that a GM will set Power lists for different AB in the setting make it what you want.

            Adept Powers have always been a constant on thing, like cyberware. SR balances the two with cash vs. Magic with similar limits. While cyberware can be damaged, it can also be replaced fairly easily. Adepts, like everyone with a Magic attribute in SR, risks having that damaged by non-magical healing. That means adepts risk losing Powers permanently when they aren't Healing naturally or via the healing Power. There's really no recovery from that loss of ability without supplemental material (initiation, natch). But if you want adept Powers to be disruptable, adepts need an Arcane Skill to use in the contested roll. Otherwise, their d4-2 is going to fail 12 times out of 13.

            (Aspected magicians are in the core SR3 book, that's why I mentioned them. All about my POV vs. yours. But they are really a thing SWADE wouldn't do well with the way it balances abilities. Not much else needs to be said about them.)

            And regarding Size, I didn't notice their size. My sources say they average almost 3 meters tall. They should at least have Size 1 instead of Toughness 1 (which still increases Toughness) as a racial ability. (For reference, Size 1 is a foot and change too short for their average, but perfect for weight. ValhallaGH's Brawny as an outlier is perfect.) Small dwarves are equally silly. However, a point of Reduced Pace is perfect.

            As a matter of fact, I can't get behind a lot of the penalties listed. Agilitiy and Vigor penalties for dwarves and elves respectively are just not a thing (from SR3, at least).

            Here's a 2-point big guys with horns race
            +4 Vigor 2 die steps
            +2 Strength 1 die step
            +1 Size 1 (Max Str d12+2)
            -1 no Common Knowledge
            -2 Smarts penalty
            -2 Big

            For a thuggish race, I'd replace a dwarf's tough with Strong and Reduced Pace with Mean.

            And All Thumbs is probably a Major Hindrance in an ultra-tech setting. Elves could have a Quirk for snobbery, even if by reputation rather than fact (ie, if you mean to play against type, you don't get your Benny if you're humble when not being so would throw an extra obstacle in your path).

            EDIT:
            I'd keep NPP, myself. It feels more SR with it's lack of hard limits.

            Regarding the priority system, if you use it, you also need to remove the Young and Elderly Hindrances. They are additional ways SWADE explains certain choices in assigning priorities. Elderly, for example, explains high skills and lower attributes, while Young can represent assigning low priorities to both. Basically, unless your goal is to completely rejigger the entire SWADE character creation process, I'd drop it.

            Regarding SMGs, everything in SWADE is slinging 9mm or .45, both of which also do the same damage as the pistols. For SR specific examples, the Uzi III fires medium pistol ammo. In SR, the HK227 used heavy pistol ammo, but the re-implementation of FirePowerTM ammo in SR2 to only and always heavy pistols shifted the power from 7 to 9 (more than rifles) for heavy pistols but it remained 7 for SMGs nominally shooting the same stuff . Bottom line, if you adapt the HK227 or Ingram Smartgun with their original concepts, they are probably using the same heavy pistol ammo as the Deagle and should do 2d8 (however ridiculous that value is in context).
            Yeah I understand what you are saying about 3rd Edition. I’m a SR player from 1st edition onward and stuff is radically different in 5th edition. Shamans and Mages are essentially the same and conjure the same spirits. And Shamans aren’t even required to have a Mentor Spirit (i.e. you are just a shaman, not a Coyote Shaman or Rat Shaman unless you take a mentor spirit). The only thing that is different is that shamans used Charisma as their linked attribute to spell casting instead of Intuition (they split Intelligence into 2 attributes in 5E: Logic and Intuition).

            As for adepts, I don’t think they would be interruptible since it doesn’t fit the source. Maybe I can come up with a similar limitation to cyberware if people think it is needed. Maybe I didn’t need to specify that it isn’t always on since cyberware doesn’t have that limitation. Perhaps losing PP if they take enough wounds to be at deaths door?

            I think I will remove young and elderly hindrances for our group and keep the priority table for our group. The priority table stuff is fairly easy to ignore as you said by holding on to the Rich and Filthy Rich edges and the young and elderly hindrances. If we find it to be painful after playtesting I have no problems removing it. My players are used to tons of options in character creation.

            Damage values are completely changed in 5E. Weapons now deal a flat number modified by net hits. So if you are attacking with a heavy pistol (7 damage) and get 5 net hits, you deal 12 damage to be resisted by body and armor. I have no doubt that damage values may need to be modified in this conversion, but I wanted to wait until we had some playtesting before making the jump.

            Again, thank you for all the effort your have put into looking and posting with me. I appreciate the discussion!
            Last edited by MakoTheAdept; 05-17-2020, 06:04 PM.

            Comment


            • MakoTheAdept
              MakoTheAdept commented
              Editing a comment
              Just getting used to this forum. Didn’t realize until just now I could just comment on posts instead of quoting the whole thing. My bad. I’ll try to do that going forward.

          • #10
            Weapon damage: I'd keep it simple and go with the following:
            Type damage Notes
            Light Pistol 2d4
            Medium Pistol 2d6 7.65mm through 10mm, .38 through .45 or .357
            Heavy Pistol 2d6+1 .44 Mag and up
            SMG 2d6 Medium pistol ammo
            Heavy SMG 2d6+1 Heavy pistol ammo; the 7M SR3 SMGs
            Assault Rifle, SAW, LMG 2d8 AK-97, FN HAR, Ingram Valiant
            GPMG/MMG 2d8+1
            HMG 2d10 Heavy Weapon
            If you want a little more granularity, you can have heavier assault rifles dealing 2d8+1 but you have to have gimpys doing 2d8+2. The HMG's Heavy Weapon tag and double AP will keep it superior.

            Comment


            • #11
              Greetings!

              Ambitious project. Shadowrun has always been a chore to run. I ran a 3e and a very brief 4e campaign many, many years ago. I think we spent more time reading the rules than rolling dice.

              As for my feedback...

              Priority System
              I'm not opposed to this concept, but I see some major issues with the way you implemented it. For starters, there doesn't seem to be a line for "Priority E" on the table (or maybe my doc-reader glitched?). This made it difficult for me to evaluate it in full, but at first blush it looks like Priority C is the "default," with each step being roughly +/-2 ability points (except for Funds, but that's not really a big issue).

              The first major issue is the conflict with standard Character Creation. My assumption is that the Priority system replaces it, since there aren't any other instructions on how the two methods interact. That said, there doesn't seem to be a way to take Hindrances unless you opt for a low Priority in that category. And I'm puzzled as to whether bonus points from Hindrances are still a thing because of the inherent nature of the Priority method. In short, it seems like you can either take Hindrances or Edges, but not both... making the Priority system instantly less appealing.

              The second major issue is the Race category. Offering Bennies for taking a Priority above the race's posted value steps on the toes of the Luck Edges. Not to mention, stacks with them! A better approach, in my opinion, would be to build each race to fit into a Priority slot. I.E., build Trolls as +6 and make them "A", build Elves as +4 and make them "B", etc.

              To summerize, I think the Priority System needs an overhaul before I consider it viable.

              Edges
              I always felt that static bonuses to skills were boring. It'd be nice to see something with a bit more flair. For example, Ghost in the Machine might allow the hacker to make a free Hide action if they successfully complete a hack, reducing their marks and keeping GOD off their trail.

              Mentor Spirit is overpowered. A +2 to two powers, AND the powers can be changed later? Nah... that's too good.
              This Edge needs a rewrite.

              Magic
              Hermetic mages, Shamans, and Adepts are easily represented by the Arcane Backgrounds: Magic, Miracles, and Gifted, respectfully.

              The name-change you made brings a question to mind... Are the Wizard or Holy Warrior Edges available to any of the spellcasters? Because right now none of them technically meet the requirements. That's why name-changes to Edges are generally not adviced, unless you are definitely creating a brand new Arcane Background, with it's own mechanics and Power Edge(s).

              Therefore, there's no point in squabbling over whether shamanism is a "religion" when, mechanically, you designed it exactly like AB (Miracles) anyway. And Holy Warrior is neat way to differentiate "nature magi" from those stuffy book-wizards.

              Adepts pose an issue, admittedly. AB (Gifted) with limited power list goes a long way to capturing their general feel, but you may want to spice them up with a few special inclusions. One way is to give them an ability that allows the first power they cast each turn to be a Free Action (which means they can also cast it while Shaken). Balance this by requiring their powers be Self-only and I think that satisfactorially captures the feel of an Adept.
              ... Abilities such as Danger Sense or Killing Hands are easily emulated by simply taking an appropriate Edge (respectively, Danger Sense or Martial Artist). You may even want to create a couple custom Adept Edges to fill in the blanks.

              Which brings me to...
              Astral Perception
              Assensing and masking astral signatures is an innate part of a magician's repertoire, so you may want to provide detect/conceal arcana as a free "bonus" power to mages and shamans.

              As for the the power itself, there are several concerns:

              A -4 penalty to Notice rolls while Astrally Perceiving is far too high. I'd drop it -2, and I'm even loathe to do that. In the source material, Astral Perception cost nothing except an action, so stiff penalties made sense; but now you're asking players to expend Power Points on the action as well. It becomes a question of, Is this power a benefit, or is it a tradeoff? And if it's a tradeoff, are the PP worth it?

              These questions are exacerbated by the "benefit" of the power. A successful Notice roll (Assensing) provides some fairly milquetoast results. Anyone with the Healing skill can check someone's health or see if they have implants; the empathy power already reads emotions; and the rest of the results have very narrow applications in the game (how is knowing someone's skill die helpful?). Furthermore, some of these results require a double-raise! Savage Worlds tends to use penalties for gauging difficulty, reserving raises for "bonus" effects. Consider changing the "raise" and "double raise" categories to -1 and -2, respectively, to the Notice roll. Each raise can then reveal an additional piece of information.

              And lastly, you turned astral perception into a de facto attack power. Why?! Isn't it enough that the mage can use bolt, blast, or burst against astral targets while the power is active?

              ____

              Okay, this turned out to be longer than I expected so I'll sign off here.
              Besides, it'll give me time to look into the areas I only briefly skimmed over. There does seem to be a lot that can be trimmed-off though. One the key rules when converting to Savage Worlds is to capture the feel of the setting, without trying to convert all of the mechanics.

              Take Care.
              Last edited by Deskepticon; 05-18-2020, 10:03 AM. Reason: Fixed typos and sentence structures for clarity

              Comment


              • #12
                First, thanks for taking a look! I appreciate the feedback.

                Priority System
                For the Priority System, the intent is to overlay the standard SW character creation system. I could probably more clearly lay that out in the sourcebook. Not sure why Priority E got cut off, but it's probably because it's a textbox in the Word Document. I can probably save them as PDFs to make them more consistent for people checking them out.

                With the Priority table, all characters are still intended to get the standard 4 points in Hindrances, which they can spend on whatever they normally would through the standard SW rules. The Hindrances on the table are intended to be extra Hindrances that the character must take that they get no points for (the offset of having more attribute points, etc.)

                I originally had the races set up to only be chosen in a single Priority. The problem with this is that it forces them to choose their Race at a specific priority and limits their choices. I wanted to expand choices not limit them. I guess I'm not concerned with players having a lot of bennies by taking their race at a higher priority and also taking Luck/Great Luck. It's really not much different than a character with a high Karma Pool/Edge in the standard SR Rules. If they choose to take a lower priority to lower their bennies, that's their choice.

                Edges
                I'm not sure that I agree that Mentor Spirit is too powerful. How does that compare to, say, the Mentalist edge which gives +2 to to any opposed roll for Psionics (i.e. most powers a Psionic character would choose)? What would you change about Mentor Spirit?

                As for the others, that's something to consider. I'll take a look and see how they might be changed.

                Magic
                I guess I don't agree that Adepts should just be like mages/shamans but more limited with less powers and more PP. That isn't really how they feel in SR. I originally designed them exactly like you are describing, but felt it didn't really represent Adepts accurately. So I designed them to be Super Powers (lower level than standard supers based on the SPC). That's essentially how, IMO, Adepts feel to play. They don't really cast powers like spells, or ever fail to activate a power. It just turns on and they go! I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Now, whether they are balanced is still unknown, but I'm hoping to find out with playtesting.

                Well, since there wasn't a AB: Miracles, there wasn't a question of whether Holy/Unholy Warrior was available. It wasn't, because it requires AB: Miracles. And I think that's fine, because there really isn't a lot in SR that is defined as "Good" or "Evil". The horrors or bug spirits could be close, but I'd rather just design an Edge that is SR specific than rely on a vague interpretation (in the SR world that is) of what is good or evil.

                Sidebar
                Shadowrun is essentially a low level Supers campaign in my mind. Just with very limited sources of super powers. I've converted SR to Hero 5E also, and it's amazing how much like superheroes the characters can be. But some players (mine especially) absolutely cannot play Shadowrun with a Supers ruleset. It breaks their immersion when you write their gun up as 2d6 Killing Attack or try to generalize their cyberware. It's a GUN! They need the gear lists because it immerses them in the world. Trust me, I've tried. And I know they are not unique in the world for Shadowrun conversions. Shadowrun is very specific, and trying to generalize or simplify too much just breaks it for some people. That's why (IMO) SR Anarchy did not hit with the diehards. I think it grabbed a lot of people who don't care about the gear lists, they just wanted a rules light way to play a cyberpunk heist game.

                And all this to say, that's why I only wrote up Adepts using SPC-style rules and not Cyberware or other Magic. Cyberware has a very "gear-like" feel, Adepts have a very super-powered martial artist feel, and magic is magic (very much like AB: Magic in SWADE).

                Astral Perception
                This is already a free power for mages/shamans (Starting Powers: 3 (plus Astral Perception)). I like your suggestions for changes to the power, and I'll take a look at making them. As for it being an attack power, the intent is that the character can attack characters that are Astrally present. This is to represent attacking something like a spirit in Astral Space. In SR, there isn't really a way to hit a completely Astral character other than Astral Perception/Projection and then fighting them in Astral Space. The intent was not that Astral Perception could attack anyone regardless of where they are. Only dual-natured and Astrally Projecting creatures can be attacked. I can probably describe that better. If that clears it up, does it still seem too strong?

                Edit: If the mage doesn't have any attack power (bolt, burst, etc.) they have no way to deal with an Astral presence. That isn't how SR deals with it, which is why I included it. Now, the question of what mages don't have attack powers is perfectly valid. Perhaps, I should say that while Astral Perceiving, the character may make Melee Attacks (unarmed or with a weapon focus) against an astral presence? The problem with this is that it makes Adepts better at dealing with astral presences from meatspace than mages. Perhaps that isn't actually a problem?

                ---
                Capturing the feel of Shadowrun isn't easy without some of the most integral aspects. I have nowhere near replicated all the mechanics (Essence is gone, no drain rules for Magic, Decking is ridiculously simplified, as is Rigging). Some of the ways that SW deals with certain things are too vague for my group (and I guess I should stress, this is very much a "for my group" thing), and need more definition (Contacts, Fencing Gear, Buying Gear)
                Last edited by MakoTheAdept; 05-18-2020, 03:39 PM.

                Comment


                • #13
                  Thinking some more, I considered some Power Modifiers of potential use in a setting where a conceit is that magic is an intrusion on the material world by the magic plane. Thoughts are especially appreciated, especially if a core concept of the setting is no hard limits (ie, NPP Setting Rule is in effect). I priced the first pair on par with max AP, I'm not sure if that's the right answer.

                  New Power Modifiers for blast and bolt. (If stun has a hidden subordination to Cover as it's explicitly spelled out in bolt, it needs access to this mechanic, too.)
                  • Power Bxxx (+3, incompatible with Mana): Can only target creatures. The spell’s effect travels through the Astral Plane to ground out in the target’s aura. Only Astral barriers provide Cover (including the barrier Power) and the target’s armor does not apply.
                  • Mana Bxxx (+3, incompatible with Power): Can only target creatures. The spell’s effect travels through the Astral Plane to ground out in the target’s aura. Only Astral barriers provide Cover (including the barrier Power with an Astral Trapping) and you roll damage vs. half the target’s Spirit +2.

                  New Power Modifier for boost/lower trait. (This may need to apply to most beneficial Powers activated to affect cybered targets.)
                  • Cybertrait (+1): This Power will not affect a Trait improved through cyberware without adding this Power Modifier.

                  Comment


                  • MakoTheAdept
                    MakoTheAdept commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I like them, and I struggled with how to handle the whole manabolt, stunbolt, powerbolt, firebolt differences. I think the biggest complaint that I can see people making is that the mana**** essentially creates a new Derived Attribute for Mental Toughness. I'm not opposed to that, by any means. I very much think the Cybertrait is necessary, as cyberware can already boost traits to pretty high levels. I will definitely implement that one. And it's very much in the Shadowrun mold of tech and magic not mixing very well.

                    Thanks!

                • #14
                  Just starting to look through this but I have to say I'd have preferred not to see an attempt to port all the mechanics of Shadowrun into Savage Worlds. This defeats the whole purpose of porting in the first place IMHO.

                  The priority system is a terrible one IMO and I've never liked it much though early versions were loose enough not to make it painful. The 5th edition version was excruciatingly bad again IMO unless you wanted to play a human or elf.

                  Savage Worlds has an excellent character creation system so why overwrite it with a bunch of clunky mechanics from Shadowrun. It's the setting that is important and should be preserved rather than trying to recreate the mechanics.

                  I can see you appear to be creating magic 5e style and that's fine though one of the things that disappoints me about the later version of Shadowrun is how they homogenized magic. There is little mechanical difference between being a Shaman and being a Mage. I prefer the older editions in this regard where Shamans call on spirits and Mages called on elementals among other things but that's my personal preference.

                  So far I would recommend
                  1. Standardize races to +4 points and ditch the priority table. Use standard character creation as much as possible.
                  2. The bastardized version of the no power points rule doesn't really work for me. I would recommend a more standard version of no power points and possibly rather than apply the negatives to the activation roll it can be the amount of fatigue to resist. This is currently the direction I'm going with it though I haven't been able to play test it yet.
                  3. The difference between a power bolt, mana bolt, stun bolt, fire bolt, ice bolt, etc. is really the difference in trappings. SWADE makes it easy in this regard since taking a new trapping on a spell (effectively taking a new spell) you know can be down with the new powers edge. It's not really a power modifier as with the mana barrier modifier you added. A lot less customizing that way. Just define the trappings for physical, mana and stun. The elemental trappings are mostly covered.
                  4. Races are more powerful than usual in Shadowrun which makes building balanced ones a pain in the butt so one thing I did was borrow the idea of racial edges from Shaintar. An edge for Orks and Trolls to boost strength, one to boost vigor. An edge for elves to boost agility. The trait max is increased in each case too. Things like that.

                  Full disclosure I've been working on my own conversion and I've been actively trying to avoid porting mechanics into Savage Worlds so that does color my perspective. It's the mechanics, even stuff like the priority table in character creation that drives me crazy in Shadowrun.

                  Comment


                  • MakoTheAdept
                    MakoTheAdept commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thanks for taking a look! I appreciate the feedback.

                    Without the Priority table, how do you handle people needing more money to purchase cyberware? If you make them take Rich or Filthy Rich, how do you differentiate one Street Samurai vs. another since they no longer have much in the way of Edges to choose from (2 are taken already just to be Filthy Rich). An Elf Street Samurai is going to mechanically look near identical to another Elf Street Samurai with no Edges to fill out their abilities. I'm open to other ideas, just no one has thrown one out that sounds reasonable to me and still feel like Shadowrun.

                    I'll throw one out that ditches the Priority table: give every character a number of free Hindrance Points that can be spent for Attributes, Skills, Starting Funds, or Edges. For example, 4 points for 2 point races, and 2 points for 4 point races. Otherwise, use the standard SWADE character creation rules. I'm not married to the Priority table, so don't think it's some sacred cow I can't kill. I just want to give more options to create characters. What are your thoughts on that?

                    I've stated above that I plan to remove the "bastardized" version of NPP.

                    For the different bolts/blasts/bursts/etc, that was my original intent, hence why there are no specifications for Manabolt/Powerbolt/etc.

                    I'm not familiar with the racial edges from Shaintar, though I do own the original book. I'll take a look, but I'm not sure that the races I wrote are necessarily unbalanced as it stands.

                    Other than the Priority table, what other mechanics do you feel I've described that are unnecessary? Decking has always been an integral part of Shadowrun, and reducing it down to a single die roll seems dismissive of decking in general. The same can be said of Rigging. If you remove the specifics of magic, then the flavor of Shadowrun gets washed out.

                    Thanks again for your time!

                    Edit: I had toyed with an idea of resisting drain at one point but decided that adding another die roll for every cast spell is something I didn’t want to see. But it might be something I add back in if my players miss it.
                    Last edited by MakoTheAdept; 05-18-2020, 06:37 PM.

                • #15
                  MakoTheAdept Money is easy. Modify the Rich and Very Rich edges for one time payouts and set the amount to how much you think spending an advance (or two) is worth. Say that in your setting taking the Rich edge is a one time payout of 100k and Very Rich adds another 150k. Adjust up or down as you see fit. Add a third level if you want more granularity. Be careful if you keep the "income" portion of the edges. Also, remember that a player can use 1 hindrance point to add x2 starting funds to starting funds. Depending on what starting funds are. This will be helpful in any extra starting gear outside the really expensive stuff. Also decide if you want to allow players to take these edges after character creation or not.

                  Modifying the Rich/Very Rich edges is how Savage Rifts handles adding extra funds

                  I suppose if you want to stick with +2/+4 races and award extra points I guess that works. Though it seems just one more complication to me.

                  Here's the race doc I've done for SavageRun Some bare bones racial edges are at the end.

                  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

                  I haven't looked to closely at the latter sections of the book but I was concerned about porting in all the decking details. I know one of the big complaints I hear from players is that there is far to much minutiae in Matrix actions. Using dramatic tasks and quick encounters and relying on letting the players (and GM) narrate most of that stuff is another reason to use Savage Worlds rather than try to house rule the Shadowrun system.

                  Comment


                  • paladin2019
                    paladin2019 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Remember that per your chart, you've set starting cash at 100k¥. This means that by default, Rich is 300k¥ and Filthy Rich is 500k¥. But given that with your chart you value these same sums at priorities equal to 1 and 2 Edges respectively, you're already requiring a character to invest Edges to have more starting resources and gear. Basically, every Shadowrunner has a schtick; some have AB, some are skill monkeys, some are tech-geeks (and Street Sams are definitely in the last category). Priorities support that paradigm, SWADE chargen does, too.

                    As far as why are you running if you're Rich, well, why are you running if you started out with 3- or 400k¥? That's priority B for resources and every Street Sam (through SR3) is built to that standard. Riggers have at least that level, if not the 500k¥ to 1M¥ of priority A. Having lots of cash isn't a narrative problem. Even Molly (and I feel really dirty just suggesting her as an exemplar Shadowrunner</rant>) couldn't be built with anything less than 180k.

                    You can also change up some functions of gear acquisition. At a minimum, I assume you have Upgrade included in your available Edges. What's wrong with adding a Background Edge called Chromed that provides 3 or 4 Strain worth of 'warez, available at character creation only, natch. Tweaking the base cash or the multiples these Edges provide; or even just assigning fixed totals for each, like 90k base/400k Rich/1M Filthy Rich; can pay dividends in getting the cash flow right. And there's nothing wrong with losing 90% of your unspent resources when play starts.
                    Last edited by paladin2019; 05-18-2020, 10:02 PM.

                  • MakoTheAdept
                    MakoTheAdept commented
                    Editing a comment
                    To the question of why you're running if you have hundreds of thousands of nuyen in gear, that's easily explained by many things other than being Rich. You could have been a corporate soldier, jacked up with cyberware in your past life and left when you couldn't handle the corp life anymore. You could have stolen that thunderbird with all the miniguns. You don't have to be Rich to have the toys. Having an Edge to give you cyberware or cash still has the issue of reducing character customization by requiring the character to have certain Edges. So in the end, every Street Samurai has these 2 Edges, full stop: Rich/Filthy Rich. Now they have to be human to have the slightest amount of personalization. I personally don't care for that, and I can hear the complaints from my players if it were the case. In any case, if you like it a different way, feel free to change it up.

                    Edit: And in any case, I've gotten rid of the Priority Table and replaced it with my Free Hindrance points rule. I think it more easily reflects what I'm trying to do (i.e. give more options).

                    And in a game where you want to play a lower level of shadowrunners (gangers, etc.), just reduce the amount of Free Hindrance points and it should be fine. So this gives flexibility and clarity as opposed to the hated Priority Table.


                    Thanks again for all the feedback!

                    Other Edit: I've also decided to reimplement the Rich/Filthy Rich Edges. If you want to spend your Free Hindrance Points on money and your other Edges on Rich/Filthy Rich, who am I to stop you?
                    Last edited by MakoTheAdept; 05-18-2020, 10:57 PM.

                  • Radecliffe
                    Radecliffe commented
                    Editing a comment
                    MakoTheAdept The Rich/Filthy Rich edges don't have to mean they are actually Rich. In Savage Rifts they just represent a windfall of extra cash. You could do the same thing here. They don't have to represent a steady stream of cash, just a one time windfall. Honestly I prefer this interpretation in general anyway.
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