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  • Savage Dune

    The Dune universe has always intrigued me and so, with some time on my hands, I have taken to Savaging it. As soon as it is presentable, I figure I am 75%, there, I will post it here for it to be torn a part.
    That being said I have ran into an issue...Suk physicians.

    For those not in the know Suk physicians are highly trained doctors/pharmacist/medical personnel that have been conditioned so that they will not directly take a human life. This conditioning is so strong that they are highly regarded as being completely trustworthy.

    At first I thought an Edge that would give them a bonus to any Spirit rolls to resist persuasion, intimidation, mind control, etc. It is near impossible to subvert someone with Imperial conditioning. But they should also have an Hindrance, Major, in that they will not directly harm someone under their care. How do I tie these two together?

  • #2
    You can rename the "healing hands" edge as "Suk physician" and add a requirement for the pacifist (major) hinderance

    Comment


    • #3
      Not sure what OK5 is talking about, since I don't know of a "healing hands" Edge. But the basic concept is sound.

      The "do no harm" of a Suk Physician is the Pacifist (Major) hindrance. It's used for the First Law of Robotics in the android race, and it serves well for the restrictions on a Suk physician.
      You can combine it with the Healer edge (+2 to all Healing rolls) and some kind of social status benefit - Suk doctors aren't aristocrats but they are trustworthy experts in a vital field, so even aristocrats are generally polite to a Suk physician.
      I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

      Comment


      • OK5
        OK5 commented
        Editing a comment
        I meant Healer

    • #4
      Aside: The thing that always stymied my Savage Dune efforts were the personal shields. Shields were a kind of reverse Heavy Armor - anything too fast moving (and therefore powerful) was excluded. I've never figured out a good way to simulate that in any RPG.
      The lasgun-shield explosion is easy to simulate. Massive explosion at both ends of the system.
      I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

      Comment


      • #5
        I'm a huge Dune fan, so when you do finally post the conversion, make sure you wear your red pants.

        Suk doctors are really just archetypes. They have Pacifist (Major) and very likely the Healer Edge. I'm actually more interested in how you handle the Bene Gesserit and Face Dancers.

        While the first book is the most popular, I honestly believe the fifth/sixth books make for a better setting. The fuedal-dystopianism of the early novels leaves very little room for campaign hooks. All travel is at the whim of the Guild, and the frefauluches make it difficult to rise above your station... not very conducive to a role-playing game. I love to be proven wrong though.
        Setting the game during Heretics/Chapterhouse era, though, means the players can have their very own No-ship and go wherever they want whenever they want. The de-centralization of authority/economies means there isn't an Imperium dictating how and when people can work. Also, the Honored Matres make really great antagonists...also, futars!

        Looking forward to what you got.

        Comment


        • #6
          Thank you for the replies.
          So, here is how I plan on doing it. Suk physician is an Archetype. (I knew that part already). They are going to get a re-skinned Healer Edge (Suk Physician School), are required to take the Hindrance Major Pacifist (or something like it), they are then going to get another Edge that a lot of you did not mention Imperial Conditioning. This will give them some edge against being mind controlled.

          FYI.
          Shields....not actually put numbers to it, but Shields are just Armor with extra Armor only versus fast moving objects.
          Shield Fighting is an edge that gives you +2 to your parry as you use your shielded body to block things and you can have a certain amount of AP versus shields as you understand how to move slowly to penetrate them. Shield dependent is a disadvantage as you ave trained so much with a Shield that you do not really know how to fight without one. -2 to Parry.

          Bene Gesserit
          one skill.
          One Arcane background
          Powers.
          Prana-Bindu...edge
          Prana-Bindu martial arts (The weirding way) is an edge modeled somewhat after the Chi edge.

          Comment


          • #7
            Oh and Face Dancers....haven't really looked at them. Not sure if they should be PC's or NPCs only.

            Comment


            • ValhallaGH
              ValhallaGH commented
              Editing a comment
              Either way, Face Dancer is probably a race with the Super Power racial ability, for the Chameleon power with the Voice extra. That's 5 points of powers for a +7 racial ability. Even the Vow (Major: Serve the Tleilaxu) is only a start on balancing that.

          • #8
            Regarding Shields (and simplicity) I'd be tempted to have them increase the wearer's Parry (the attacker just has it harder to get through)*. and then disallow pretty much all ranged attacks. Low damage rannged weapons (say 2d4 or maybe Str+d4 throwing weapons) would be ok and could make called shots to boost their damage (if they can hit!)

            Another option is just to say that a Shield is a Deflection spell and don't worry about power points. Doesn't emulate the setting exactly but is FFF

            *As Shields were pretty ubiquitous in the setting most fighters would have some idea of how to fight against them

            Comment


            • ValhallaGH
              ValhallaGH commented
              Editing a comment
              Shield fighters were notoriously fast on defense - ensuring their blades were in place to block attackers - but necessarily slow on attack. Paul's first duel with a Fremen is an excellent illustration of the effects of training in shield fighting.

            • Deskepticon
              Deskepticon commented
              Editing a comment
              I'm beginning to lean more toward shields offering deflection, rather than my previous decision to model it off of the armor power.

              But I would not discount all ranged weapons off the bat. Some weapons, like slow-pellet stunners, were specifically designed to get through a shield. Indeed, fast-moving projectiles are virtually non-existent as far as weaponry is concerned. The one time ballistic weapons are used is more to illustrate the depth of the Baron's conniving intellect than to show the effectiveness of the weapons (i.e., he spreads false rumors of large lasgun shipments so the Atreides minimize their shield usage, then he attacks them with ballistics and explosives).

              It's also important to note that the Baron ponders over why no one else has ever thought of using such "ancient" weapons this way before, and he quickly removes the evidence so the other Great Houses don't learn of the tactic. The absolute state of civilization during the first Dune book is one of apathy and decline; no one innovates anymore, and things have been stagnant for thousands of years. Even warfare has become stale and uniform.

          • #9
            RE: Shields. Just give 'em a bunch of special armor that can't be reduced by normal AP. (I'm loathe to say Toughness here, as with Savage Rifts, as that opens up more issues with overcoming them.) Shield Fighting is an Edge that lets you trade a -X to hit for AP X. A Master Shield Fighter might get 2X AP. Alternately, anyone can use the first calculation and trained shield fighters get 2X and 3X AP. Deliberate shield breaking munitions would have similar effects; -X to hit always with +2X AP vs shielded targets.

            Basically, this simulates slower strikes being telegraphed and easier to avoid while trained and wily combatants know how to feint and disguise their equally slow movements.

            For the Dune scholars, what is the effect of shields vs. Grappling? Would a shield protect against damaging joint locks and breaks and the like (a use of Crush in SWADE)?

            (Editing Note: the power usage on your shield table lists max power as 1/minute. Given level 4 is 3/minute, I assume this should be 1/round.)

            For las/shield interactions, the explosion does a number of damage dice as the las-gun with the size determined either by the shield's Armor or the las-gun's die size, whichever is larger. Radius is also the die size.

            Comment


            • #10
              Originally posted by savagegm View Post
              Thank you for the replies.
              It truly was my pleasure!

              ... they are then going to get another Edge that a lot of you did not mention Imperial Conditioning. This will give them some edge against being mind controlled.
              Imperial Conditioning is represented by Pacifist (Major). The "pyretic consciousness" is merely the Trapping for the Hindrance, where the Suk physician becomes ill at the thought of violence. Imperial Conditioning does not make them resilient to "mind control," i.e., Voice. And a Suk can still be imprinted by a (post God Emperor) Face Dancer.

              Shields....not actually put numbers to it, but Shields are just Armor with extra Armor only versus fast moving objects.
              Shield Fighting is an edge that gives you +2 to your parry as you use your shielded body to block things and you can have a certain amount of AP versus shields as you understand how to move slowly to penetrate them. Shield dependent is a disadvantage as you ave trained so much with a Shield that you do not really know how to fight without one. -2 to Parry.
              Yup!
              In my unpublished Savage Dune notes, I simply had shields add +4 Armor verse all attacks; unless the attack was determined to be moving significantly fast enough, in which case it would just simply miss. Ranged weapons such as slow-pellet stunners and hunter-seekers move slow enough to penetrate a shield, but not so slow that the shield is useless. Modern ballistics are virtually unheard of, so very few instances should result in automatic misses.

              I wrote up an Edge called Shield Fighter that reduced 2 points of Armor off an opponent's shield while providing +1 Parry when the user has an active shield... and an Improved version that repeated the benefits. Granted, this was all pre-SWADE, before all the Edges that now add to Parry, so I'm not sure how well balanced those Edges are now. Having an Edge that adds +2 Parry may be far too much.

              As for the lasgun-shield reaction, I simplified it so that a LBT is centered on both the shield and lasgun, dealing 6d12 damage. Enough to simulate a decent explosion, if not a nuclear one.

              I really like the Shield-Dependant Hindrance. Reminds me of Paul's fight against Jamus.

              Bene Gesserit
              one skill.
              One Arcane background
              Powers.
              Prana-Bindu...edge
              Prana-Bindu martial arts (The weirding way) is an edge modeled somewhat after the Chi edge.
              Is this a Race? If so, it looks to be about +7 points.
              Or do players just pick "human" as their race and build a BG as an archetype?

              Power lists should be SEVERELY limited, if they are used at all. Honestly, the only thing the Bene Gesserit have that can be represented by powers is Voice; use it to stun, or puppet a target. AB (Gifted) is a good fit for that, though a custom Edge can work as well. Chi is a fitting Edge for them.

              Comment


              • #11
                Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
                For the Dune scholars, what is the effect of shields vs. Grappling? Would a shield protect against damaging joint locks and breaks and the like (a use of Crush in SWADE)?
                Not many examples of traditional grappling using shields. In one case, a character positioned himself so his opponent was positioned against a table and had limited movement/defensive options... but that would likely be a Test in-game, not a grapple.

                The only other two examples I can recall that definitely involved grappling (Paul v Jamus, Paul v Feyd) were both done without the use of shields.

                But this brings up a very interesting discussion that may hinge more on book theory than game mechanics. A shield works by repelling forces with a high enough kinetic value, but it's unclear whether that force is "absorbed" by the shield or if it can be tranferred. For example, if someone charges and shoves at a shield-wearing, the shield will effectively stop the shove from touching the wearer, by what happens to the force, the enertia, of the shove? Can the attacker "shove" the shield, essentially shoving the wearer as well? We know a shield can be moved by moving it's source (i.e., the shield belt), but can that work in opposite? Can pushing a shield move the belt, and thus, the wearer?

                But back to grappling.
                The attacker would still need to time their movements in order to get their hands through the shield and onto their opponent, so a shield should still be effective against a grapple. This makes me think that instead of an Armor bonus, if shields should provide a deflection bonus instead?

                Comment


                • #12
                  Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post
                  But back to grappling.
                  The attacker would still need to time their movements in order to get their hands through the shield and onto their opponent, so a shield should still be effective against a grapple.
                  I'm not sure and that's why I asked. A properly worn plate harness, for example, will not allow one's enemy to hyper-extend or break your elbow because it doesn't move that way. (Twisting the armor to allow it, notwithstanding in this basic example.) Unless you apply so much force that you break the armor's joint. Does a personal shield have such rigidity built into it or will a steady torquing get the job done on a joint, particularly the neck, thus allowing the Crush option of Grappling?

                  Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post
                  For example, if someone charges and shoves at a shield-wearing, the shield will effectively stop the shove from touching the wearer, by what happens to the force, the inertia, of the shove? Can the attacker "shove" the shield, essentially shoving the wearer as well? We know a shield can be moved by moving it's source (i.e., the shield belt), but can that work in opposite? Can pushing a shield move the belt, and thus, the wearer?
                  FWIW, this was done liberally in Lynch's film, so I don't see any reason to think a shield is any more immovable than any other armor.

                  Comment


                  • #13
                    Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
                    I'm not sure and that's why I asked. A properly worn plate harness, for example, will not allow one's enemy to hyper-extend or break your elbow because it doesn't move that way. (Twisting the armor to allow it, notwithstanding in this basic example.) Unless you apply so much force that you break the armor's joint. Does a personal shield have such rigidity built into it or will a steady torquing get the job done on a joint, particularly the neck, thus allowing the Crush option of Grappling?
                    Personal shields are not akin to worn armor though. The only real rules are: fast things=bad, slow things=good. Frank left so much unanswered and vague because he was primarily a character writer; most of his world-building was done through interactions and internal monologuing. The mystery of the Holtzman Field Projection (the principle that makes body shields possible) is even joked about as a character comments that not even Holtzman fully understood why or how shields worked. Basically, that was Frank telling the reader, "Don't think too much about it."

                    But the "rigidity" of a shield depends on the velocity of the object interacting with it. A "fast" arm snap might cause the shield to stiffen, but slow, steadily mounting pressure on the arm would not.

                    FWIW, this was done liberally in Lynch's film, so I don't see any reason to think a shield is any more immovable than any other armor.
                    Yeah, I wouldn't use that film as an authoritative source. We all got way too intimate with Dean Stockwell's mustache.

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