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  • Dogfighting.

    I want quick easy dogfight rules that do not result in slowing my game. I am still unsure of the SWADE Chase rules for a dogfight and don't think they would do large combats well. So I have another idea using Dramatic Test and Quick Encounters.

    The Villain force is rated to be a certain amount of tokens and there is not time limit.

    Each Round a player draws an action card,
    On their turn the player makes a piloting roll.
    Success: Nothing happens.
    Raise: Get +2 to shooting roll or next turn piloting roll.
    Failure: Vehicle takes 1 wound
    Critical Failure: Vehicle takes 1d4 wounds

    Faster/Slower +1/-1
    Twice as Fast/Very slow +2/-2
    Surprise/Stealth +2/-2
    Outnumbered +1/-1
    Very Outnumbered +2/-2
    Enemy Ace -2 per enemy Ace
    All out Defense +2
    All out Attack -2 gives a +2 to shooting roll.


    Once the pilot has made their piloting roll they then make a shooting roll. (This roll is at -2 if they are also the pilot for multiple actions.)
    Gain a token for each success and raise.
    Failure: Nothing happens
    Critical Failure:
    Player can declare they are aiming at specific enemy for -2 penalty. On a success they hit their target.

    Support rolls.
    As their first action any Pilot can declare that they are using their Piloting roll as a support roll for another pilot. The pilot makes their Piloting skill roll as normal.
    Success: Target pilot gets +1, but pilot suffers -2 to next piloting roll.
    Raise: Target gets +1, and pilot suffers no penalty
    Failure: Pilot Vehicle takes 1 wound
    Critical Failure: Pilot Vehicle takes 1d4 wounds

    If running an escort mission any time a character's ship takes a wound draw an action card. If the card is a Club the enemy hits the protected target instead.


    Starbuck (pilot d12+1/shoot d10) and Apollo (d12+/1d8) are escorting three new trainee pilots (d6/d6). Dradis shows there are 6 Cylon raiders headed for them. The GM rules that the Cylons are worth 8 tokens. Round 1 Starback draws a 3 of spades, Apollo draws a 4 of diamonds, and the trainees draw a 9 of spades.

    The trainees act as Extras and Hold their action. Apollo orders the new trainees back to the Galactica and declares he is making his piloting roll in support of the trainees. Apollo rolls a d12+1, -1 for outnumbered, -2 for an enemy Ace. Apollo gets a success and a raise giving the trainees a +1 to their piloting roll without himself suffering any penalty. Apollo them makes a shooting roll d8-2 for multiple actions. Apollo gets a single success for a single token. (One of the Cylon Raiders blows up.) 5 tokens left.

    The trainees now make their piloting roll with a +1 from Apollo and a -2 due to the enemy Ace. The trainees roll a 3 giving a result of 2. If Starbuck and Apollo were not escorting the trainees then they would suffer 1 wound, for their failure, resulting in one of the trainees Vipers exploding. However, since Apollo and Starbuck are escorting an Action Card is drawn. If it is a clubs then either Starbuck or Apollo take the damage instead. In this case it is a King of Hearts so now there are two trainees left.

    On Starbuck’s turn she makes rolls a 7, -2 for enemy Ace, meaning she gets a 5. Nothing happens. Starbuck makes her Shooting roll, at -2 for multiple actions, and Aces getting a success and two raises. She gets 3 tokens so not there are just 2 tokens left.

    Suggestions?
    Does this sound fun and dramatic?


  • #2
    Welcome to the forum!

    My experience with the new Chase (dogfight) rules has been extremely positive. They've been detailed enough to be satisfying for players, fast enough to not bog down the session, and loose enough to work well with two dozen combatants (five players, five allies, fifteen foes). So it should be a viable option no matter how your house rule works out.

    As for your rules:
    The modifiers are a lot more fiddly than the current Comprehensive Modifier rules encourage. They also stack to a much more extreme total than the Comprehensive Modifier rules recommend. The categories are useful but I'd recommend cutting the amounts.
    Are the tokens players accumulate related to the tokens the foes start with? Are they subtracting from the foes? Something else?
    Penalizing Support discourages teamwork. That seems counter to the point and purpose of military teams. Also, you've rewritten the Support rules just for this one scene, which is inconsistent with every other instance of Support. What is the benefit of this choice?
    The escort rules are unclear. The rules describe a situation where the protected ship is only hit 24% of the time, but the example indicates the protected ship is hit 76% of the time. That's a serious disagreement.
    Why are the allied Extras in your example acting on a separate card instead of being even split between the players and acting on the player characters' cards? Why do these rules handle allied Extras differently than the entire rest of the rule system?

    Does it sound fun? Not especially. Vivid descriptions and a GM open to creative actions can make it fun, but having to roll dice so you can roll dice that matter is horse pucky. As a player it would make me grumpy and frustrated with the scene.
    Does it sound dramatic? Maybe, but that's a matter of description and tension. The example provided is not dramatic.
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

    Comment


    • ValhallaGH
      ValhallaGH commented
      Editing a comment
      Also noteworthy. As written, these rules allow capital ships to be killed by a random Shooting roll. If the capital ship is involved in the dogfight, such as a vessel being escorted by one or both sides, then it/they can be destroyed by a random Shooting / Piloting roll. Which is kind of hilarious.

  • #3
    This helps alot. Thanks.

    Comment


    • #4
      The rules have the makings of a quick-resolution dogfight, but there are several things that are unclear / confusing.

      Are the initial Piloting roll and the Piloting roll for Support the same roll? Your example seems to suggest they are, but I'm not to sure. Also, why are Support rolls only limited to Piloting? Can a capital ship's gunnery not Support with suppressive fire? Can a tech not Support by jamming enemy comms with Electronics? And penalizing Support rolls only discourages their use.

      In your examples, the characters are taking Multi-Action penalties on their Shooting rolls, but not their Piloting rolls. Are the Piloting rolls Free Actions? If yes, then why is Shooting penalized. If no, then why aren't they also receiving a MaP?

      It's unclear when the Escort rules are in effect. It seems this should be a "condition" or "maneuver" a player decides to use (similar to Evade or Hold Steady during a Chase). It would completely suck if the GM just decides "this is an escort mission" and your ship gets hit, even if all your actions suggested you broke away from the group. Also, what happens if you draw a Joker?

      In the example, you start by saying the six enemy ships represent 8 Tokens, but then when one is destroyed you say there are 5 tokens left. Perhaps the "8" was a typo, but raises the question: Why use tokens at all if you are quantifing the enemy?
      Dramatic Tasks are abstract; their difficulty is measured in tokens-accrued-per-round. The tokens themselves don't really represent anything other than progress. Even the "rounds" in a DT can represent minutes, or even hours, of work. If you want to measure progress with tokens, don't quantify enemy numbers... and if you want to quantify the enemy, don't use tokens.

      On a related note, the Outnumbered and Very Outnumbered modifiers seem like they can be better represented by increasing or decreasing the Token count. Use round-limits. More Tokens means the characters need more successes in a short amount of time before they are routed, captured, or destroyed. Less Tokens has the opposite effect, especially if you have a large group of Extras also making attacks.
      Last edited by Deskepticon; 03-01-2020, 05:35 AM.

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by savagegm View Post
        I want quick easy dogfight rules that do not result in slowing my game. I am still unsure of the SWADE Chase rules for a dogfight and don't think they would do large combats well.
        So use the mass combat rules, or only run small combats (though from your example, your idea of a "large combat" is quite small). Why invent a new subsystem?

        If running an escort mission any time a character's ship takes a wound draw an action card. If the card is a Club the enemy hits the protected target instead.
        But why though? This would only make sense if the escorts were protecting the target by physically getting in the way of the bullets (which we have cover and innocent bystander rules for). I'm no expert, but I've seen enough films and documentaries to know that in a dogfight, escorts protect their target by breaking off and engaging enemy fighters.

        Comment


        • #6
          I really want to tell everyone that your help is appreciated.
          I have looked at three rules that could do this, IMO: Dramatic Task, Quick Encounters, and Mass Battles.

          One of the problems I have with all off them is that they use a single skill. If I use piloting, then what of shooting? Dogfighting should be about both. I have thought of using Dramatic task and making some kind of rule, out of the core book, that they must get so many success before they can start shooting. However, IMO, the only way this would work is if I kept track for each person and that is not fast, fun, and furious.

          Here is my current re-written rules:
          Dramatic Test Dogfight.

          The Villain force is rated to be a certain amount of tokens and there is not time limit.

          Each Round a player draws an action card. Clubs is still a complication.
          On their turn the player makes single piloting roll. Before they roll they must declare whether this is a support roll and, if so, who they are supporting.

          Success: Nothing happens.
          Raise: Get +2 to shooting roll or next turn piloting roll.
          Failure: Vehicle takes 1 wound
          Critical Failure: Vehicle takes 1d4 wounds

          Faster/Slower +1/-1
          Surprise/Stealth +2/-2
          Outnumbered +1/-1

          Once the pilot has made their piloting roll they then make a shooting roll. (This roll is at -2 if they are also the pilot for multiple actions.)
          Gain a token for each success and raise.
          Failure: Nothing happens
          Critical Failure: Draw a card. On a club they have hit a friendly target. One random ally suffers one wound.

          Support rolls.
          As their first action any Pilot can declare that they are using their Piloting roll as a support roll for another pilot. The pilot makes their Piloting skill roll as normal. Because they are supporting another pilot they are leaving themselves open to attack and suffer a -2 penalty on their next piloting roll.

          Success: Target pilot gets +1,
          Raise: Target pilot gets +2 and Pilot does not suffer a -2 to their piloting roll next turn.
          Failure: Pilot Vehicle takes 1 wound
          Critical Failure: Pilot Vehicle takes 1d4 wounds

          If running an escort mission any time a character's ship takes a wound draw an action card. If the card is a Club the enemy hits the protected target instead.


          Honestly though the more I look at it is just foregoing the shooting at all and just saying Piloting, but again, what about Shooting.

          Comment


          • #7
            So, other than fewer modifiers, nothing's changed?

            These rules create special exceptions for the core mechanics, rather than using them to a unique effect. Under this system, if a pilot both Supports and Shoots (two Actions by RAW), the Support roll a) is limited to just Piloting, b) penalizes a future roll (quasi-Distracted), and c) doesn't receive a MaP while the Shooting roll does.

            I get the reasoning behind the penalty (the Supporting pilot is ignoring danger to himself to help an ally), but that just makes me think the penalty should by received on THAT turn, rather than the next. But considering how the Piloting roll is made both for the Support and to avoid Wounds, I don't know what the solution might be. Oddly, this means the character's Support failed if he also gets hit.

            It also seems odd the Support roll uses Piloting, and not... ohh, let's say, Shooting. Or Electronics (radar-jamming). Or Taunt (hazing the enemy over their own frequency). Or anything else that doesn't actually require the pilot to ignore danger to himself.

            My advice?
            Uncouple the Support roll from the "avoid Wounds" Piloting roll and allow Support as normal, with no subsequent penalties. This would also allow crew on capital ship (who don't make Piloting rolls) to provide Support.

            _________

            You call the penalty to Shooting a Multi-Action penalty. This is erroneous as you don't seem to consider the Piloting roll to be an Action. You say a raise on Piloting adds a +2 bonus to Shooting, but it really just eliminates the penalty. There's no actual bonus for gaining a superior position or anything.

            My advice?
            Eliminate the -2 Shooting penalty entirely. Explicitly call the Piloting roll a Free Action, and allow Multi-Actions as normal. A raise on Piloting adds +2 to one action THAT turn (not next turn), while a failure results in the pilot/crew being Distracted until the beginning of their next turn and results in a Wound. On a Critical Failure the pilot/crew are Distracted and the ship receives 1d4 Wounds.

            ___________

            Clarify the Escort rules.
            Does the protected ship receive an Action Card, or is it a plot device?

            If it receives its own card, then the Escort rules are redundant since the players should be making Support rolls to aid the VIP's Piloting rolls.

            If the protected ship is a plot device, then the Escort rules make a bit more sense as the players' failures result in a few shots getting through. I suggest you fix the nomenclature, though... you don't draw an "Action Card", you simply just draw "a card." Action Card is a specific term used only for inititive. But referring to it as a Action Card, you are implying Edges like Quick and Level Headed work with it. You don't want to create that type of confusion.

            Also, you might want to say what happens if a Joker is drawn. Maybe the protected target takes the Wound, but the players also earn a token (i.e., the enemy kamikaze'd themself).

            That's about all.
            Hope you found this helpful.
            Cheers!

            p.s. - Providing modifiers for Outnumbered forces is only "doubling down" on what tokens already represent. If the enemy outnumbers the players, add more tokens; if the players outnumber the enemy, subtract tokens. Adding modifiers only makes an easy task easier and a hard task harder.
            Last edited by Deskepticon; 03-02-2020, 03:32 AM.

            Comment


            • #8
              Originally posted by savagegm View Post
              I really want to tell everyone that your help is appreciated.
              I have looked at three rules that could do this, IMO: Dramatic Task, Quick Encounters, and Mass Battles.

              One of the problems I have with all off them is that they use a single skill. If I use piloting, then what of shooting? Dogfighting should be about both. I have thought of using Dramatic task and making some kind of rule, out of the core book, that they must get so many success before they can start shooting. However, IMO, the only way this would work is if I kept track for each person and that is not fast, fun, and furious.
              So why not just use the chase rules? They take into account both Shooting and Piloting, and, unlike your proposed house rules, also take into account the toughness, armament and relative speeds of each vehicle, and it doesn't matter whose perspective you're running the combat from. This is an extreme example, but let's say that 5 pilots get in a dogfight with 5 other pilots of equal skill; Group A is flying Sopwith Camels (Handling +1, Top Speed 113 mph, Toughness 12(1), Weapons: 2× Linked Medium MGs (Fixed Front)), while Group B is flying Supermarine Spitfires (Handling +1, Top Speed 370 mph, Toughness 14(1), Weapons: 8× Linked Medium MGs (Fixed Front)). Normally the GM would look at this scenario, realize how it's going to end, and inform Group A that they will be absolutely destroyed if they engage Group B, but let's assume the combat happens and is played out instead of being handwaved.

              Under the chase rules, it doesn't matter whose perspective you're running it from, because neither side is reduced to a pile of required tokens. Group A has a -4 speed modifier to their Shooting rolls (which stacks with -2 or -4 from evasive maneuvers) and between speed and Handling, Group B rolls their Change Position with a +3 bonus as a free action or +5 as an action (while Group A would roll +1 and +3 respectively). On top of that, Group B has a slight toughness advantage and vastly superior firepower. In short, Group B is going to fly circles around Group A before blowing them out of the sky - or maybe just blow them out of the sky first and save the fancy flying for later, more credible threats.

              Under your rules, how the fight goes depends on who you run the fight from the perspective from. If you run it from Group B's perspective, then they're rolling Piloting at +3 (+2 over twice as fast, +1 Handling), so they always succeed, except for when they critfail. Then they shoot at ROF3 with a net modifier of +0 (quad-linked provides +2), or they shoot at ROF3 twice at -2. This will make for a pretty easy victory, as expected. But if you run it from the point of view of Group A, they would be rolling -1 on their Piloting rolls (-2 over twice as fast, +1 Handling), which is not a significant penalty. In fact if they have Ace, it's a flat roll. Let's be realistic and also throw on another -2 penalty for being severely outgunned, now they're rolling -3, -1 if they have Ace. If they succeed, they also roll their Shooting at -1 at ROF 3. It's an uphill battle, but still one that Group A is likely to win because they have no time limit.

              I'm genuinely confused. The chase rules actually do what you want out of a ruleset for dogfights, but you seem to have made your mind up that you're going to use house rules that are inconsistent with how the rest of the game works. What specific issues with the chase rules do you think you have that you also believe your house rules would fix?

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post
                So, other than fewer modifiers, nothing's changed?

                It also seems odd the Support roll uses Piloting, and not... ohh, let's say, Shooting. Or Electronics (radar-jamming). Or Taunt (hazing the enemy over their own frequency). Or anything else that doesn't actually require the pilot to ignore danger to himself.

                My advice?
                Uncouple the Support roll from the "avoid Wounds" Piloting roll and allow Support as normal, with no subsequent penalties. This would also allow crew on capital ship (who don't make Piloting rolls) to provide Support.

                _________

                My advice?
                Eliminate the -2 Shooting penalty entirely. Explicitly call the Piloting roll a Free Action, and allow Multi-Actions as normal. A raise on Piloting adds +2 to one action THAT turn (not next turn), while a failure results in the pilot/crew being Distracted until the beginning of their next turn and results in a Wound. On a Critical Failure the pilot/crew are Distracted and the ship receives 1d4 Wounds.

                ___________

                Clarify the Escort rules.
                Does the protected ship receive an Action Card, or is it a plot device?

                If it receives its own card, then the Escort rules are redundant since the players should be making Support rolls to aid the VIP's Piloting rolls.

                If the protected ship is a plot device, then the Escort rules make a bit more sense as the players' failures result in a few shots getting through. I suggest you fix the nomenclature, though... you don't draw an "Action Card", you simply just draw "a card." Action Card is a specific term used only for inititive. But referring to it as a Action Card, you are implying Edges like Quick and Level Headed work with it. You don't want to create that type of confusion.

                Also, you might want to say what happens if a Joker is drawn. Maybe the protected target takes the Wound, but the players also earn a token (i.e., the enemy kamikaze'd themself).

                That's about all.
                Hope you found this helpful.
                Cheers!

                p.s. - Providing modifiers for Outnumbered forces is only "doubling down" on what tokens already represent. If the enemy outnumbers the players, add more tokens; if the players outnumber the enemy, subtract tokens. Adding modifiers only makes an easy task easier and a hard task harder.

                Your advice has really helped. I have changed it all.
                Now, as I see it, You make a free action piloting roll. If this succeeds nothing happens, if it is successful nothing happens. If you get a raise you get a +2 to your shooting roll on this turn or a +2 to your piloting roll next turn. Shooting rolls and Support roles work as normal. There is not escorting rule since the person flying it will be an extra rolling on their own.

                Also I have eliminated all modifiers. I realized the modifiers I was using was based on the difficulty of the encounter and this is represented by how many tokens are needed to succeed. So for instance if the opponents are faster the players will need more token, if the players are slower and outnumbered, then they have to get more tokens.

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by gigacanuck View Post
                  So why not just use the chase rules? They take into account both Shooting and Piloting, and, unlike your proposed house rules, also take into account the toughness, armament and relative speeds of each vehicle, and it doesn't matter whose perspective you're running the combat from. This is an extreme example, but let's say that 5 pilots get in a dogfight with 5 other pilots of equal skill; Group A is flying Sopwith Camels (Handling +1, Top Speed 113 mph, Toughness 12(1), Weapons: 2× Linked Medium MGs (Fixed Front)), while Group B is flying Supermarine Spitfires (Handling +1, Top Speed 370 mph, Toughness 14(1), Weapons: 8× Linked Medium MGs (Fixed Front)). Normally the GM would look at this scenario, realize how it's going to end, and inform Group A that they will be absolutely destroyed if they engage Group B, but let's assume the combat happens and is played out instead of being handwaved.

                  Under the chase rules, it doesn't matter whose perspective you're running it from, because neither side is reduced to a pile of required tokens. Group A has a -4 speed modifier to their Shooting rolls (which stacks with -2 or -4 from evasive maneuvers) and between speed and Handling, Group B rolls their Change Position with a +3 bonus as a free action or +5 as an action (while Group A would roll +1 and +3 respectively). On top of that, Group B has a slight toughness advantage and vastly superior firepower. In short, Group B is going to fly circles around Group A before blowing them out of the sky - or maybe just blow them out of the sky first and save the fancy flying for later, more credible threats.

                  Under your rules, how the fight goes depends on who you run the fight from the perspective from. If you run it from Group B's perspective, then they're rolling Piloting at +3 (+2 over twice as fast, +1 Handling), so they always succeed, except for when they critfail. Then they shoot at ROF3 with a net modifier of +0 (quad-linked provides +2), or they shoot at ROF3 twice at -2. This will make for a pretty easy victory, as expected. But if you run it from the point of view of Group A, they would be rolling -1 on their Piloting rolls (-2 over twice as fast, +1 Handling), which is not a significant penalty. In fact if they have Ace, it's a flat roll. Let's be realistic and also throw on another -2 penalty for being severely outgunned, now they're rolling -3, -1 if they have Ace. If they succeed, they also roll their Shooting at -1 at ROF 3. It's an uphill battle, but still one that Group A is likely to win because they have no time limit.

                  I'm genuinely confused. The chase rules actually do what you want out of a ruleset for dogfights, but you seem to have made your mind up that you're going to use house rules that are inconsistent with how the rest of the game works. What specific issues with the chase rules do you think you have that you also believe your house rules would fix?
                  For two reasons.
                  1) So I have 6 player, 4 allies, facing 12 opponents. Yes, I understand they are extras and this make it easy. Yes, I know Savage combat is faster than many other games. But I am going to have to set it up and run a full fledged combat. So how long is this combat going to take? 30 minutes and hour?

                  If I run a 4 hour session and the this combat takes 1 hour than it is taking 1/4 of my time. I don't want to spend that much time on the combat. There are other combats that I would rather play out.
                  Just a side note here....I was watching Critical Role the other day and in one of the 4 hour episodes they took 2 hours to run a combat that was nothing more than an quick encounter.

                  2) My second reason....I am not sure I understand the dogfight/chase rules as written.
                  • Okay I get the 4x4 grid (16 cards) I find it troublesome that on these 16 cards I need to put 22 mini's or tokens. Sure we can go to 5x5 (25 cards) and take up more space.
                  • What about facing?
                  Forget my 22 opponents take a simple WW2 fight between a US Plane and a Zero Fighter.
                  The Grid is
                  1 2 3 4
                  5 6 7 8
                  9 10 J K
                  A B C D

                  The US Plane starts on 1. The Zero starts on D. Which way can the move? I now they cannot move diagonally, but what directions. How do you determine direction of movement? Do they just get go wherever they want. The rules as written imply that the facing is important, but gives no rules for how to change facing or determine. Do you get to change facing just whenever you want?

                  The rules specifically mention a naval ship with only broadsides and watching firing arcs. Let's say I am that ship and am on D. I roll and move....where? Do I have a choice between 8 and B or does my facing matter? Once I get to the card of my choice, what keeps me from just saying...here is my facing.


                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by savagegm View Post
                    2) My second reason....I am not sure I understand the dogfight/chase rules as written.
                    Given that most participants are in formations, you can use a couple of tokens for the two enemy formations, and then use one for each player character and their allied wingmen.

                    Facing is mostly irrelevant. Three dimensional movement means that even fixed front weapons can fire in any direction without changing the position card. Vehicles are limited to attacking with one "facing" of weapons, but can use whichever facing they can justify with descriptions that match the action.

                    Vehicles move and shoot "orthogonally (no diagonals)" (page 120). The fighter on 1 can move along the lines of 1 - 4 and 1 - A; the fighter on D can move along the lines of D - 4 or D - A.
                    Both vehicles can move along those lines using the Change Position maneuver, which allows changing position up to two position cards. Note that the second card of movement is optional, due to the phrase "up to".
                    Both vehicles can attack within Range along orthogonal lines. If they attack after moving then the areas they can target change to match their current position(s).

                    "Use common sense when determining weapon arcs and vehicle facings." If a B-17 is being attacked by a BF-109 then the GM describes the direction of attack and any weapons that don't bare can't attack the Messerschmitt this turn. Conversely, the BF-109 is described as heading towards the bomber, so its Fixed (Front) weapons can all be used on the bomber - but none of them can be used on the Mustang that sweeps in from the side and nails the German before it can finish the U.S. bomber.
                    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                    Comment


                    • gigacanuck
                      gigacanuck commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Maybe it's because I'm more simulationist, but I have to strongly disagree with you on facing. Being able to turn 180 degrees, or even 90 degrees, without any difficult or additional movement flies in the face of both the known mechanics and the dramatic conventions of dogfighting. It should be a knife fight in a phonebooth, with opponents circling and chasing each other, desperate to get on the enemy's tail while keeping them off your own.

                  • #12
                    Originally posted by savagegm View Post
                    1) So I have 6 player, 4 allies, facing 12 opponents. Yes, I understand they are extras and this make it easy. Yes, I know Savage combat is faster than many other games. But I am going to have to set it up and run a full fledged combat. So how long is this combat going to take? 30 minutes and hour?

                    If I run a 4 hour session and the this combat takes 1 hour than it is taking 1/4 of my time. I don't want to spend that much time on the combat. There are other combats that I would rather play out.
                    In my (admittedly limited) experience, it shouldn't take much longer than a normal combat. Yes, vehicles have higher toughness and far more wounds than most extras, but you're throwing around heavier firepower than in most ground combats, most extras lack the ability to soak vehicle wounds even if the GM has bennies to give them and the Out of Control and Critical Hit tables can be dangerous if not outright deadly - 9 or 10 on the Critical Hit table being particularly likely to take a vehicle out of the fight in one shot.

                    Besides, you're only looking at this from a GM perspective. The combat and chase rules in SWADE are fun to use, so unless your players absolutely abhor tactical combat then an hour spent dogfighting will be an hour your players will be having a good time. And really, how many dogfights do you need to pull off in a 4 hour session anyways?

                    2) My second reason....I am not sure I understand the dogfight/chase rules as written.
                    .......
                    • What about facing?
                    Forget my 22 opponents take a simple WW2 fight between a US Plane and a Zero Fighter.
                    The Grid is
                    1 2 3 4
                    5 6 7 8
                    9 10 J K
                    A B C D

                    The US Plane starts on 1. The Zero starts on D. Which way can the move? I now they cannot move diagonally, but what directions. How do you determine direction of movement? Do they just get go wherever they want. The rules as written imply that the facing is important, but gives no rules for how to change facing or determine. Do you get to change facing just whenever you want?
                    These are planes we're talking about, they must move forward or fall out of the sky and can't turn on a dime. Not an official ruling, but here's how I'd run it: If you score a normal success on your Change Position roll, you move forward or backward one card based on your current facing. If you succeed with a raise, you can move forward or backward up to two cards and also have the option of changing your facing 90 degrees after moving one card, after which you can move forward (but not backward; note that in a dogfight moving 'backward' is just moving moving forward less quickly relative to everyone else). You can also take a -4 penalty on your Change Position (reduced by Ace as normal) to add an additional 90 degrees turn to your maneuver. You can perform this turn before or after any card, even your first, but you can't move backwards after you've made it. Facing at the beginning of combat should, of course, be informed by the starting conditions of the dogfight.

                    As a side note, the Frozen Skies setting offers more detailed dogfighting for Deluxe or Weird Wars rules. It's worth looking at, and if dogfighting is going to be the most common form of combat in your campaign, then I would recommend that you add the setting's Evasion rule:
                    ...the addition of a Parry-like score called ‘Evasion’ which acts as the TN for a pilot’s aircraft. Evasion is half the character’s Piloting skill, plus two, plus the Aircraft’s Handling...
                    Last edited by gigacanuck; 03-03-2020, 06:46 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      Originally posted by savagegm View Post

                      Okay I get the 4x4 grid (16 cards) I find it troublesome that on these 16 cards I need to put 22 mini's or tokens.
                      Nope. Break them up into four or five formations, each represented by a single mini (token). Keep a scratch pad noting how many Extras are left in each group.

                      What about facing?
                      ...
                      The rules specifically mention a naval ship with only broadsides and watching firing arcs.
                      I think ValhallaGH nailed it, but just to reiterate, if the naval ship is on 6 (from your grid) and it can only fire broadsides, then it can target opponents on either 5 & 7, or 2 & 10. It cannot target 5 &10 on the same turn since that violates it's firing arc. It doesn't matter where they were aiming on the previous round since movement and repositioning is just an assumed fact. In other words, facing is determined on a case-by-case (round-by-round) basis.

                      Gigacanuck has some interesting ideas concerning movement and maintaining facing (good for simulationalism), but the core rules seem to favor a looser approach
                      Last edited by Deskepticon; 03-04-2020, 01:54 AM.

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                      • #14
                        With everyone talking here I took another look at the Chase rules. Under Fixed Weapons it says:
                        The captain or pilot chooses his target and makes an opposed maneuvering roll as an action. Failure means he can’t line up a shot this turn. Success means the attacker may fire up to half his guns on one
                        side at the target, and a raise means he may fire all of them at that target


                        As I interpret this this roll is not actually an action, just a roll to see if how many weapons can be targeted.
                        Now if I use this and formations I think I can use the "chase" rules as written.

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