Savage Midnight (a conversion)

[arnon]

Midnight (link) has been the "setting i love" for a long time now. It's the only one for which i bought all the books, I actialvely participated in forum discussion, etc.. But, i've only run 1.5 campaign in it over the years.

It's a d20 camapaign, and once i discovered Savage Worlds i immedtialty tired to convert (there were other conversion, but i did not like them). I never published them on these forums, since they were always half done, and for years they would sit in the google-drive gathering dust, untill i suddenly get the craving and look at them again and re-work them. With SWADE, i decided to finally give it a serious push.

The elevator pitch for this setting: like Lord of the Rings, except Sauron won.

PCs are the under-dogs, sort of resistance fighters in many campaigns. Fey races (non humans) are hunted down. Only those in alligence with the bad guys are allowed to bear arms. Magic items are rare, praticing magic is illegal and casters are hunted down; there are special demons who can sniff out magic... so all in all, a hard world to live in.

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Savage Midnight

The links lead to a google document in which you may leave comments. Please do. I'll appreciate and consider any comment you have.

Races:

• I've tried to balance the Races with a +3 Racial Point. I had a hard time doing it with 2 points, and besides... with so much going against the PCs, any small edge is good
• I do not like giving races social penalties. This should be a player decision. So i tried to avoid it, unless it was called for (such as Orcs penalty on Persuasion)
• I've played around with the Core Skills here... tried to adjust them to each races, as well as give the players so freedom on who their character is
• Races document

Edges & Hindrances:

• I've tried to keep it to a minimum, just what is really needed and important to the Midnight setting
• I will be borrowing several Edges from various other Savage Worlds setting i have. Those will be mainly Combat Edges
• Edges & Hindrances document

Skills & Setting Rules:

• Removed some unnecessary skills, added some new ones
• Played around with how Language works, and how you learn languages
• Skills & Setting Rules document

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I might add more later...

• Common weapons and gear in the setting
• Commong foes
• etc..

As i wrote above: i'll appreciate any and all comments.

Thanks,
-arnon

[PEGThomas]

Good luck with this. Midnight is a cool setting. Skimmed through your notes so far and its good to see them parsed down to the details. Good luck with the Heroic Paths... Though I'd suggest just making a small set of Edges that can be taken to reflect those or even just using the Racial Modifiers and make a small +2/+3 template for the heroic path. Unpon reaching Seasoned a character can choose one. It might make them a bit more powerful, but given the world it wouldn't be a bad thing. A lot of the heroic Paths could be simplified and condensed so you have a dozen or so rather than the mulittude of the core and splat books..

[arnon]

Thanks PEGThomas,

My thoughts about Heroic Paths were along similar lines to what you wrote:

• Once reaching Seasoned rank the hero chooses a Heroic Path
• The Heroic Path will need to be tailored for each player, I'm not gonna create a whole bunch of them just for laughs.
• I'll have the them look over the original Heroic Paths just to get an idea, and i've got ideas of how to implement some of them already (Shadow Walker, for example, could be giving the Gifted background with Teleport power, and a limiting it's use to starting/ending their teleport in shadows)
• On how to implement, several options come to mind:
  • One option is to give them the Girfted Arcane Background with a d4, and let them increase the die once per Rank. Maybe also put a limit on Power Points regeneration
  • Another option is to give them abilities from the Race Creation table or from the Special Abilities in the bestiary section of SWADE
  • Yet another option would be to use the Superpowers Companion, giving each player a small amount of points to create a unique superpower..

Cheers,
-arnon

[Crimson]

I have played around with this setting to convert too. I feel that Savage Worlds would be a better system then the attrition based 3.5 or even 5e for their settings feel. So onto my view of races. I see the PC races being 4 point builds since they are LA+1 for 3.5 speak.

I am not a fan of Common Knowledge, so I do 4 Core Skills (Athletics, Notice, Persuasion, and Stealth) and 12 points build. Given the fantasy setting of multiple languages, I think race dictates being starting skills plus one-half Smarts as bonus skill points in languages.
I see languages as d4 pidgin, d6 basic, d8 fluent, d10 mastery (dialects), d12 (literacy). I also condensed language list as follows: Colonial (Sarcosan language), Dwarven (no clan dialect), Elven (High), Erenlander, Halfling, Norther (Dorn language), Orcish, Sunder Tongues*, Sylvan, Trader's Tongue (common). I see Black Tongue as pidgin orcish, and Courtier as d10 or d12 Colonial. * Sunder Tongue can only be bought at d4. Persuasion, Performance, Taunt and non-direct Intimidation is limited by the language you are trying to work through.

Human, Dorn
Strength (2) start d6, can advance to d12+1
Fighting skill (2) d6, can advance to d12+1
Cold Resistance (1) +2 verse cold temperature and effects.
no Persuasion (untrained)
Languages: Norther (d8), Erenlander (d8), and Trader's (d4)

Human, Erenlander
Adaptable (2) gain free edge
Skill Points (2) gain two skill points
Languages: Erenlander (d8), Trader's (d4), and Colonial or Norther (d8)

Human, Sarcoson
Adaptable (2) gain free edge
Persuasion (1) d6, can advance to d12+1
Ride (1) d4, can gain a horse for a quarter cost or full cost for a horse with additional edge/quality if Plain sarcosan
Languages: Colonial (d8), Erenlander (d8), and Trader's (d4)
subrace: retrap Ace (Horse only) as Born In the Saddle for Plain Sarcosan and retrap Aristocrat/Streetwise City Dweller for Urban Sarcosan taken at character creation only.


I will submit non-humans at another time. What do you think?

[arnon]

Hi,

Sorry for such a late reply...

I have played around with this setting to convert too. I feel that Savage Worlds would be a better system then the attrition based 3.5 or even 5e for their settings feel. So onto my view of races. I see the PC races being 4 point builds since they are LA+1 for 3.5 speak.

I think 4 points build is a bit too much. In 3.5 the races were stronger in order to compensate the lack of magic and magic items, but in SW, where all the magical stuff is cool but not strictly necessary, i do not think it merits it.

I am not a fan of Common Knowledge, so I do 4 Core Skills (Athletics, Notice, Persuasion, and Stealth) and 12 points build.

I like to try and give my players freedom even in the race selection, and since i believe that not every character of a race is the same (apart from common physical traits, although even with that i was struggling. Who's to say there is no robust elf or slow halfling), i tried to give the players some freedom in further customizing the race. This mainly came to be in at least one trait that could be chosen over another, and another skill point or two from the Core Skills rules, which i did not allocate.

Given the fantasy setting of multiple languages, I think race dictates being starting skills plus one-half Smarts as bonus skill points in languages.
I see languages as d4 pidgin, d6 basic, d8 fluent, d10 mastery (dialects), d12 (literacy). I also condensed language list as follows: Colonial (Sarcosan language), Dwarven (no clan dialect), Elven (High), Erenlander, Halfling, Norther (Dorn language), Orcish, Sunder Tongues*, Sylvan, Trader's Tongue (common). I see Black Tongue as pidgin orcish, and Courtier as d10 or d12 Colonial. * Sunder Tongue can only be bought at d4. Persuasion, Performance, Taunt and non-direct Intimidation is limited by the language you are trying to work through.

I like how you condensed the languages and think i'll steal it.

I do not agree that literacy should be linked to the language skill. It should be bought separately and marked somewhere on the character sheet. A person can have literacy in a language even without knowing all dialects.

Take a look at my Language Rules

[Crimson]

LA in 3.5 is a level, a level in SW is 1 advance (2 points). But I will see if I can squeeze the races into 3 points total. For the brutes (ogres and bugbears), I am thinking about having level roll to advance them, I will look at Zadmar's dragon and what not (though pared down immensely). I don't know if i see a place in the peeking order for oruks (love them, but why do they not control the world [being giant tough orcs], they are not slow aging like elves in Tolkien).

For the core skills, I see them as hero packages, not races. Since advances are how players are made, I leave most choice there. Also too many choices for beginning characters is problematic for

Perhaps literacy should be an edge, but do you get it for each language you know, seems like too much in the setting but too little to be per language. Since reading/writing is rare in the setting. I will probably just make it an edge then, if you are the reader/writer then you read/write and you should be penalized. Maybe the edge gives you literacy in half your Smarts languages each time. Then I need to re-tailor d10 and d12.

[arnon]

RE Literacy: Why a literacy Edge? Why not add it to the Advance, along side improving two skills, allow player to improve one skill and gain Literacy in language?

RE Core Skills: i see your point. I used them as part of the races to symbolize traits. For example, Elves have keen senses so their Core Skill package has d6 in notice; etc...

[paladin2019]

RE: Languages. In d20, language is on/off rather than how well. In SWADE, this translates to a d8, full fluency, and the level every character has in his native language(s). You might consider the Multiple Languages Setting Rule which gives every character the Linguist Edge. Note also that the rules for the Language skill include the caveat about Performance and other trait rolls being limited for foreign languages.

RE: Common Knowledge. Without the skill, how do you handle whether or not a character knows a common bit of information? GM fiat? How does a player define a character who would know the things investing in the skill represents. "We want to go on a journey to [place 2 weeks away]. My studies say it should be that way and that we should or shouldn't do these things." So how do you determine if the player is right? A Smarts roll per SWD or is this all down to the GM's whim?

[Crimson]

1st, Midnight for d20 uses a 5 skill point language system. Second, this is a world which is in a dark ages, the feel of languages separating people (including heroes) is very baked in and should not be overlooked. This is a low fantasy with some high fantasy parts. Mages are hunted and killed (or "recruited") as are most elves and dwarves. Halflings are an enslaved race and gnomes fast talk their way into being freer-servants and humans run the gamut.

Absolutely language caps your persuasion and what not if linguistic based.

2nd, Common Knowledge at my table will be kept as Deluxe was. I see common knowledge as a Smarts tax, it is situational and based on Smarts if you know something or not. Always with GM fiat.

[arnon]

RE: Languages. In d20, language is on/off rather than how well. In SWADE, this translates to a d8, full fluency, and the level every character has in his native language(s). You might consider the Multiple Languages Setting Rule which gives every character the Linguist Edge. Note also that the rules for the Language skill include the caveat about Performance and other trait rolls being limited for foreign languages.

In Midnight (originally a d20 setting) languages were learned at three different levels: pidgin, basic, fluent; and skill points were used to improve them and buy literacy. This translates easily to Savage Worlds, but instead of half Smarts in languages, what we both did is half-Smarts in language points, which you can then spread across to improve Skill in a Language. The Linguist Edge allows a character use his full Smarts die in language points.

[Deskepticon]

It's important to note that you gain "half-Smarts" languages at d6. So if you are instead going with "language skill points" (my personal houserule as well ), then you might want to use "full-Smarts".

By RAW, a d6 in Smarts would get you three languages at d6, which is equivalent to 6 skill points.

[Crimson]

Deskepticon, 1/2 smarts (assuming d6) is 3 points, which is (1 = d4, 2 = d6, 3 = ) d8, fluency in another language (a pretty big deal). As i noted above (sorry i missed it here), language being a separator lends itself to this setting very much.

Also remember that characters gain innate languages based on their race. I have not run SW, but for d20, we would break this if it made sense.

For my idea the humans get 7 language skill points assigned (they are adaptable by nature, center of the continent, where cultures are mixing). The elves and dwarves gain 4 points (edge of the continent, hunted and in hiding), orcs (setting says are polygolts, rules do not support that in d20, but i have idea for that, basically linguist for free) get 6 , also the gnomes and halflings get 6, they are still in the thick of the world's affairs.

I made Dwarrow (gnomes with Brawny) and Dworgs an edge (character creation only, building off dwarves), same thing with the Jungle and Snow Elves. I removed the Elfling and Sea Elves, the former because they were broke and made little sense and the later because no one ever takes them and they are so far removed from the world's plight.

For Goblin folk, i gave them only 3 points (to show their 2nd class state) and ogres only get 1 point (they seem like they are basically living war machines).

[Crimson]

Arnon, I think I agree with you about 3 points. I have tried that with the races.

Human (Erenlander)
Versatile (+2): Erenlanders start with a choice a free edge of their choice. They must still meet all prerequisites.
Skilled (+1): Erenlanders are useful and productive as they are varied. They start with an additional skill point to use at character creation.
Languages: Eranlanders begin with the following languages: Erenlander (d8), Trader’s Tongue (d4), and d8 in the choice of either Norther or Colonial.

Human (Dorn)
Cold Tolerant (+1): Born in the north, the Dorn have learned to endure the cold they gain a +4 bonus to resist cold environmental effects.
Strong (+2): Dorn are powerful. They start with a d6 in Strength instead of a d4, and their maximum strength is increased to d12+1 before the use of Professional and Expert.
Languages: Dorn begin with the following languages: Norther (d8), Erenlander (d8), and Trader’s Tongue (d8).

Human (Sarcosan)
Versatile (+2): Sarcosans start with a choice a free edge of their choice. They must still meet all prerequisites.
Horsemen (+1): Sarcosans learn to ride and care for horses as soon as they can walk. They begin with d4 in the Riding skill. Additionally, cost of horses and tack is ¼ for a Sarcosan.
Languages: Sarcosans begin with the following languages: Colonial (d8), Erenlander (d8), and Trader’s Tongue (d4).

Midnight Dwarf (Variant available)
Arcane Resilience (+1): A Dwarven might extends beyond their bodies into supernatural resistance. Arcane skills targeting the dwarf suffer a −1 penalty (even if cast by allies!) and magical damage is reduced by 1 as well. This effect stacks with Arcane Resistance and the Improved version as well.
Infravision (+1): Dwarves can see in the infrared spectrum, halving attack penalties (round down) for bad lighting.
Lug (+1): Dwarves can carry more than most proportional to their Strength. They treat their Strength a one die-type higher for purposes of Encumbrance and Armor and Weapon Minimum Strength requirements.
Slow (-1): Dwarves have shorter legs which reduces their Pace by 1 and the running die a die type.
Poison Immunity (+1): Dwarves are as tough as the earth, they gain immunity to poison effects, be they from mundane or magical sources. [Sand (+1): Dwarves are as enduring as the Aryth herself; they gain an additional point of Toughness.]
Vigorous (+2): Dwarves are hearty. They start with a d6 in Vigor instead of a d4, and their maximum Vigor is increased to d12+1 before the use of Professional and Expert.
Wanted, Major (-2): All dwarves are hunted by the Shadow’s forces and killed on sight, they begin with the Wanted (Major) hindrance without gaining any extra points for it.
Languages: Dwarves begin with the following languages: Dwarven (d8) and Trader’s Tongue (d4).

• Option: Dworg: Dwarves may sacrifice 2 points gained from hindrances to be a dworg, the despised offspring of orcs and dwarves. Doing so, the Dworg gains Not Slowed (+1) Pace of 6” with no running die reduction, Strong (+2) start with a Strength of d6 instead of a d4, and trait maximum of d12+1, but are Surly (-1) they lose their Persuasion (d4) core skill.

Midnight Elf (Variants available)
Agile (+2): Elves are graceful and agile. They start with a d6 in Agility instead of a d4, and their maximum Agility is increased to d12+1 before the use of Professional and Expert.
Arcane (+1): Elves have magic in their blood, they gain a +5 to their Power Points for the Arcane Background (Channeler). [or Skilled (+1): Elves apply their intuition to increase their proficiency. They start with an additional skill point to use at character creation in place of the additional Power Points listed above.]
Frail (-1): Elves are light and quick but they lack the toughness to take a good hit. They begin with 1 less Toughness.
Low Light Vision (+1): Elven eyes amplify light like a cat’s, allowing them to see in the dark. Elves ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
Perceptive (+1): Elves sense are far keener then most other sentients, the gain a +1 to all Notice skill checks. [or Adroit (+1): Elves make up for their weaker constitutions by training and the virtue of their enhanced reflexes. They gain a +1 to Parry.]
Meditative Trance (+1): Elves do not sleep, but instead they can enter a trace to rest. Elves need only to sleep for 4 hours to gain the full benefits other species get in 8 hours.
Wanted, Major (-2): All elves are hunted by the Shadow’s forces and killed on sight, they begin with the Wanted (Major) hindrance without gaining any extra points for it.
Languages: Elves begin with the following languages: Elven (d8) and Trader’s Tongue (d4).

• Option: Subrace: Elves may sacrifice 2 points gained from hindrances to be a either Danisil (Jungle) or Erunsil (Snow) Elven subrace.
  • Danisil gain Immunity to Poison (+1) as the Dwarves, and increase their Covert (+1) which increases their Stealth to d6, which their maximum Stealth is increased to d12+1 before the use of Professional and Expert.
  • Erunsil gain Cold Tolerant (+1) as the Dorn, and Perseverance (+1) which allows them to begin with a d4 in Survival.

Midnight Gnome
Charismatic (+2): Gnomes are very likeable and shrewd traders, they gain the Charismatic edge for free and may ignore the requirements.
Low Light Vision (+1): Gnomes eyes amplify light like a cat’s, allowing them to see in the dark. Gnomes ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
The River is My Home (+2): Gnomes are as at home in the water upon it. They begin with a d4 in Boating and the cost of watercraft is ¼ for a Gnome. Additionally, they can hold their breath of 15 minutes before checking for drowning. They may also move at full Pace when swimming.
Slow (-1): Gnomes are small, which reduces their Pace by 1 and the running die a die type.
Small (-1): Gnomes smaller than humans. They are Size -1 (which reduces their Toughness by 1 as well).
Languages: Gnomes begin with the following languages: Trader’s Tongue (d8), and two additional languages (at d6 and d4 respectively).

• Option: Dwarrow: Gnomes may sacrifice 2 points gained from hindrances to gain the Brawny edge (ignoring any requirements) as the result of being the offspring of a union between a gnome and a dwarf.

Midnight Halfling
Fortunate (+2): Halflings draw one additional Benny per game session. This may be combined with the Luck and Great Luck Edges.
Healing Hands (+1): Halflings know lore to sooth wounds caused by their oppressors. They begin with d4 in the Healing skill. Additionally, Halflings are never considered without supplies for the purpose of healing.
Low Light Vision (+1): Halflings eyes amplify light like a cat’s, allowing them to see in the dark. Halflings ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
Short (-1): Halflings average only about 3 to 3 and a half foot tall. This gives them a Size of –1 and subtracts 1 from their Toughness.
Spirited (+2): Half-folk are generally optimistic beings. They start with a d6 Spirit instead of a d4.
Enslaved (-2): All halflings are maltreated and enslaved by the Shadow’s forces. They are treated like second-class citizens at best and typically slaves, they begin with the Outsider (Major) hindrance without gaining any extra points for it.
Languages: Halflings begin with the following languages: Halflings (d8), Trader’s Tongue (d4), and an additional language (many times the tongue of their captors) at d6.

Midnight Orc
Alpha (+0): Orc culture is ruled by aggression and fear; they begin with d4 in the Intimidation skill, but lose their Persuasion (d4) core skill. [Alternately, gain -1 to all Persuasion checks.]
Size (+1): Orcs average about 7’ tall. This gives them a Size of +1 which adds 1 to their Toughness and increases their maximum Strength by one die-type.
Cold Tolerant (+1): Born in the far north, the Orcs have learned to endure the cold they gain a +4 bonus to resist cold environmental effects.
Dull (-2): Orcs are followers and uncultured, Smarts trait (but not its linked skills) suffers a -1 penalty.
Heavy as Rocks (-1): Orcs gain the Can’t Swim hindrance without gaining the points for it.
Infravision (+1): Orcs can see in the infrared spectrum, halving attack penalties (round down) for bad lighting.
Light Sensitive (-1): Orcs are sensitive to bright light. When in bright light (sunlight) they take a -1 to all trait checks and reduce their Parry by 1 as well.
Polyglot (+1): Orcs are master linguists; they begin with their full Smarts in language skill points (instead of the half normal Smarts for other races).
Really Strong (+4): Orcs are very powerful, they begin with a d8 in Strength and may raise it to a d12+3 (do to Big) via normal advancement; the Expert and Master edges may raise it to a d12+5.
Tribal (-1): Orcs are born and breed into a strict matriarchal society where they are expected to die for the mother-wives and their brethren. Orcs begin with the Loyal (Minor) hindrance without gaining any extra point for it.
Languages: Orcs begin with the following languages: Orcish (d8), Dwarven (d4), Elven (d4), and Trader’s Tongue (d4).

• Option: Motherless (-2): Orcs that have abandoned or been abandoned by their tribes (lose Tribal) aren’t trusted by most other races or their any brethren, and so Secret (Major) hindrance or Outsider (Major) instead of the Loyal hindrance, gaining no additional points.

Also I agree with you as above that the main languages can be d4 (Pidgin), d6 (Basic) and d8 (Fluent), that 1 point (as lower-linked Attribute skill) for fluency is brilliant and I should not have overthought that one. I was also thinking to use it as a "Race Knowledge" too (like Classic Deadlands: Area Knowledge), I know Norther at d8 and I am very familiar with their lands, culture and customs.

[Crimson]

Desk, I will look at these when i have time and will comment. Thank you for thoughts and feedback though, talk to you soon.

[Crimson]

overall i am sorry that i had not qualified this. I assume anyone reading would be familiar with the source material. There is a lot of baked in ideas, that might look strange to outsiders (read the reaction to languages above), but Arnon and I it makes sense since we are familiar with the setting and not assuming typical d20.

I do agree that languages are important and I understand the balance aspect, but the game (atleast in my interpretation) swings very LotR towards exalting the time of Men. The fey (dwarves, elves and halflings) are very much hunted for enslavement and in the case of dwarves and elves outright killed. Humans live in the center of the lands, dwarves have retreated to the mountains in the east and are losing a slow war of attrition. Elves are cut off (some by their choice) and fight a war hiding in the magical woods to the west. Humans have lost their war and now fight rebellion style, but even that is unwanted by the masses as it only brings harder times with crackdowns and purges.

Adaptable is the new name, I can change, the name was most likely a hold over from the pre-SWAdE version I wrote. Even Peg is inconsistent with naming powers, they have same name for different things.

My mistake, the dwarf and elf alternate abilities are place holders, most likely not character choice. Arnon and I differ where he wants character choice and I like races to be set. So i intend the races to have 1 or the other.
Dwarves are very tough in midnight, they had natural armor. I may tend towards the poison resistance because yes, that makes them very high Toughness. I like your interpretation of Sand, very useful but moderated by Benny economy. Health and Hale are really neat concepts, I think the issue is poison seems weak since it is not a normal encounter stat, and toughness is too powerful since it is any combat encounter. I think though, I may just settle to poison immunity, very classic dwarf and toughness may be too powerful, especially when stacked.

I prefer the sub-races (or half-races, love that midnight doesn't do half human) to be character build only. i guess you can always say at character creation only under requirements for background edges to avoid racial swapping in-game.

Dworgs are pretty rare, but even the creators know that players will flock to them that they gave a sidebar to talk about them. I understand not wanting to swap out hindrances for them, but I feel in the setting (again or atleast my interpretation of it) their is a give and take, and to be outside the norm, there is a cost. I like where you have to sacrifice your background for it. Effectively it is semantics about is this an edge (CC only) or is it +2 ability (with a further +1/-1 attached) built in.

no kidding, this is long...

[Crimson]

I may leave the elves as you suggested with proficient (nice d&d reference), but my original idea was either or, not choice. i just hadn't landed at a decision yet.

I always go back and forth about abilities that give you more then one thing, since my experience with players is they miss it if it is not tabular at times. at seasoned they go, oh i never saw the +1 Parry, i thought i just got +1 Notice. But this is like the ability above where i hadn't figure which i was going with.

Elven subraces, as I mentioned above, I see it as tomato-"tomato" situation. Take the hindrances and buy this alternate set of traits.

I feel like the Dwarrow (half-dwarf half-gnome) was a cheat to even them out. So I have my opinion about them, and see that is the way to emulate this half-race. I see them as a bit slow (mentally) but loveable instead of gnome likeable. There was a broken half-elf and half-ling race (Elfling) that I removed because it didn't make sense to me and was just for fanboy service.

Halflings
Fortunate was left over from pre-SWAdE, I may leave it. I dont know if I will keep the joker's wild rule. We ran it and felt it cheapened the Benny economy.

I agree that Healing Hands is closer to +2 ability, but unless you really keep trace, it is effectively at most tables as +1. I like it and lets them stand out a bit more.

Orc, Alpha, again my apology. I meant either remove the Persuasion point or have a penalty. I am thinking i will keep the penalty since 1 skill point can not erase it.
Light Sensitivity in our games it came up infrequent, so that is why I chose costed it at 1, I may remove the parry penalty though if it becomes too much of a determent.
Polyglot, i think i will remove RAW Linguist edge.

I will fix the language on Really Strong and remove "big" I think i meant "size". Thank you, always a separate set of eyes helps!

Motherless is so you can play an orc, otherwise you are a bad guy and you don't last long with the other PCs. Their are certain social advantages you would gain being an orc (social latitudes even most humans don't get), remember in the setting Orcs are a dominant race. Again it is a dissuasion from playing them by making PC orcs less mechanically balanced. The in balance is intentional.

Thank you again for the conversation and thoughts.

[Crimson]

Here are my Evil Races for Midnight (outside Orc).

Midnight Goblin (Hand of Shadow Race)
Agile (+2): Goblins are swift and agile. They start with a d6 in Agility instead of a d4, and their maximum Agility is increased to d12+1 before the use of Professional and Expert.
Infravision (+1): Goblins can see in the infrared spectrum, halving attack penalties (round down) for bad lighting.
Short (-1): Goblins average only about 4’ tall. This gives them a Size of –1 and subtracts 1 from their Toughness.
Sneaky (+2): Born from the shadows, Goblins are at home in its ways. They begin with d6 in the Stealth skill instead of the normal d4. Additionally, they gain a d4 in Thievery. [Alternately, they gain Skilled as Erenlander, instead of Thievery]
Yellow (-2): Goblins are bullies at best, they never fight without advantage. All Goblins begin with the Yellow hindrance without gaining any extra points for it.
Languages: Goblins begin with the following languages: Orcish (d6) and Trader’s Tongue (d4).

Midnight Hobgoblin (Hand of Shadow Race)
Infravision (+1): Hobgoblins can see in the infrared spectrum, halving attack penalties (round down) for bad lighting.
Prideful (-1): Hobgoblins are determined to claw their way to the top but will take no insults. They gain the Thin Skinned (minor) hindrance without gaining any extra points for it.
Warlike (+2): Martial prowess is the lifeblood of Hobgoblins. They may choose to begin with d6 in the Fighting skill or gain any Combat Edge for which they meet the requirements for.
Languages: Hobgoblins begin with the following languages: Orcish (d6) and Trader’s Tongue (d4).

Midnight Bugbear (Hand of Shadow Race)
Flawed (-3): Bugbears are a horrible experiment that continue well past their time. All Bugbears must begin with 2 points Hindrances, without gaining any extra points for them. They may additionally gain 2 more points of hindrances (to the normal maximum 4 points) for which they do gain points at character creation. Also they gain the Mean (minor) hindrance without gaining any extra points for it.
Improved Size (+2): Bugbears average over 7’ tall, long limbed, and dense. This gives them a Size of +2 and adds 2 from their Toughness and increases their maximum Strength by two die type.
Infravision (+1): Bugbears can see in the infrared spectrum, halving attack penalties (round down) for bad lighting.
Sneaky (+1): Born from the shadows, Bugbears are at home in its ways. They begin with d6 in the Stealth skill instead of the normal d4.
Trackers (+2): Bugbears can smell very well and can practically taste the fear of their prey. They begin with d4 in the Survival skill and gain a +2 to all Survival rolls when tracking.
Languages: Bugbears begin with the following languages: Orcish (d6) and Trader’s Tongue (d4).

• Immature (-1): Bugbears start as adolescence for their kind at character creation. Before they advance to Season Rank (maybe no choice, must be taken at 1st advance), they must sacrifice one of its advances to on the following:
  • Powerful (*): The bugbear becomes stronger; they increase their Strength by a die type.

Midnight Ogre (Hand of the Shadow)
Big (-2): No creatures are as large as Ogres, so little materials are made for them. The Ogre subtracts 2 from Trait rolls when using equipment that wasn’t specifically designed for them and cannot wear their armor or clothing. Equipment, food, and clothing cost double the listed price.
Fast (+2): Ogres have giant strides. They begin with a Pace of 8” and a running die of d8.
Hardy (+2): Ogres are brutes; a second Shaken result in combat does not cause them a Wound.
Improved Size (+2): Ogres average over about 8’ tall. This gives them a Size of +2 and adds 2 from their Toughness and increases their maximum Strength by two die type.
Dull (-3): Ogres trained from infancy to follow commands and little else. Their Smarts trait (but not its linked skills) suffers a -2 penalty.
Strong (+2): Ogres are very powerful, they begin with a d6 in Strength and may raise it to a d12+3 (due to size) via normal advancement; the Expert and Master Edges may raise it to a d12+5.
Infravision (+1): Ogres can see in the infrared spectrum, halving attack penalties (round down) for bad lighting.
Poor (-1): Ogre’s receive what is left over, the better to keep them in their place. Ogres begin with the Poverty hindrance, without gaining any extra points for it.
Languages: Ogres begin with the following language: Orcish (d4).

• Immature (-1): Ogres start as runts, for their kind at character creation. Beforethey advance to Season Rank (maybe no choice, must be taken at 1st advance), the Ogre must sacrifice one of its advances to on the following:
  • Growth Spurt (*): Ogres have grown into their size. They increase their size by one (to a total of +3), increasing their maximum strength to +4 (or +6 with the Professional and Expert edges), as well as their toughness by an additional point. They gain the Reach +1 feature.

[Deskepticon]

Following my thoughts on counting Language points, Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Bugbears each have Language (+3), meaning I would give them an extra point somewhere. Likely make Orcish a d8.

Ogres are three points shy on Languages, but this is okay. Simply count it as a negative and beef them up elsewhere.

Bugbear: I'm unclear on the intent behind the Immature ability. Is this optional? (Why not just take Young?) It's valued at -1 presumably because it forces the player to dedicate an Advance on Powerful, which is clearly a benefit in every way; if Powerful was just a racial Background Edge, most bugbears would take it anyway since it stacks with the regular attribute increase. The point I'm trying to make is the -1 value for Immature simply makes no sense unless the player really wants to play a weak bugbear, or they have a very tight build-plan where they can't sacrifice even a single Advance.

"...(maybe no choice, must be taken at 1st advance)..."
Don't know what this is trying to convey. Are you questioning whether is should be a choice or not? Or is meant to read: "may be no choice"? And does the player spend their very first Advance on Powerful or their first Seasoned Advance?

Aside from being a non-hindrance, it's very difficult to figure out what you are trying to achieve here.

Ogre: Same concern with Immature here. This is a boon with no drawback whatsoever. Forcing the character to take an Edge that makes them Tougher and giving them Reach 1 is not going to be sniffed at.

[Crimson]

Desk,
Midnight is not a fair place, the races are not equal. My point is to have them lower with languages to emphasize their second class citizenship. I am ok with this and de-incentives players wanting to play monsters. The Hand of Shadow races (gobs, hobs, bugs and post especially ogres) are rare as PCs and they do lose out on language points. This is intentional and reinforces tropes in the setting.

Immature is meant to denote Bugbears and Ogres are a +3 race (other Hand races are +2). Again this is part of the unfair character build (in d20 midnight, these races had a major flaw that could be bought off with an advance, so +1 penalty isn't as bad), it was called Goblin Scourge representing their lack of resources and cultural upbringing drawback.
But Bugs and Ogres have Immature as a drawback they have to sacrifice an advance, I am not sure if I am requiring it to be their first (Deluxe's 5 XP) advance or just before they get to Seasoned (i.e. in their first 3 advances). Since they gain +2 points but have to take it as part of their advance to buy off the higher character creation point, this is like d20's level adjust, it is a throw back. You bring up a good point though, I should make these race specific feats that must be taken at novice (or if I decide at first advance only). That is why I am making them -1, since they limit choice, even though these are good options.

[Crimson]

I was thinking about the following setting rules:
Born A Hero (this might be too powerful)
Conviction
Dynamic Backlash (spellcasting/magic, not for Legate)
Fanatics
High Adventure
Multiple Languages (as skill points, not full languages)
Wound Cap

All For One - all players gain the effects of Common Bond edge (Beast Bond) where appropriate, for characters that they have a real bond with.

I have the following skills banned: Common Knowledge, Driving, Electronics, Focus, Gambling, Hacking, Piloting, Psionics, Repair, Research (combined with Academics), Science (very limited, covered by Academics), and Weird Science.
I was thinking of removing Repair, as I dont really see a place for it, maybe combine with Thievery.

[paladin2019]

Repair is the "make stuff" skill, so all of your smiths, tailors, etc need it. Driving is the skill for carts and wagons and the like. And Gambling/the gambler is a classic trope. If the skill goes, its functions need to be subsumed by something else like Thievery.

And so I understand, Research and Science haven't actually been banned, they've been subsumed into Academics. The effect is then that a character only has one "Uncommon Knowledge" skill to spend points on.

[Crimson]

Paladin,
I will probably allow Repair (remove from the banned list), fair enough thank you. I may replace it with a Crafts proper skill.
Carts and wagons will be rare, so I am coupling this with Riding (Accursed does this IIRC).
Gambling is removed, since money is not a thing (it is all barter) and most characters are subsistence serfs, slaves, or refuges. I guess if someone needs it, I could be a Smarts roll, Persuasion or Thievery depending the way they play it.
Fair enough that Research and Science aren't banned proper, but instead combined into the Academics. This will not come up to often in the setting, so I don't see it as a problem and anyway GM will say you can't do that since the skill cannot do much in the setting.

[ValhallaGH]

I have the following skills banned: Common Knowledge, Driving, Electronics, Focus, Gambling, Hacking, Piloting, Psionics, Repair, Research (combined with Academics), Science (very limited, covered by Academics), and Weird Science.
I was thinking of removing Repair, as I dont really see a place for it, maybe combine with Thievery.

So no one has the ability to:

• Recall history, songs, plays, stories, poems, or other cultural touchstones.
• Operate a land vehicle other that isn't hauled by animals. Probably true if such vehicles don't exist. Note that the riding skill explicitly includes animal drawn vehicles.
• Control electrical and control devices. Likely true if these devices don't exist.
• Use powers from Arcane Background (Gifted).
• Get good at games of chance and skill. No card sharps, card counters, dicers, etc. Which implies a lack of humans in the setting, since humans will wager their teeth on outcomes of events.
• Alter programing, especially to do things it was never meant to do.
• Control air craft of any kind - gliders, balloons, blimps, airplanes, helicopters, UFOs, skyships, etc.
• Control powers from Arcane Background (Psionics).
• Fix or manufacture anything. Armor, swords, shirts, wheels, axles, wagons, rope, pottery, or anything else that isn't raw materials pulled from the environment.
• Quickly sort through stuff, like a librarian.
• Practice hard science, including advanced mathematics (geometry or higher), engineer anything more complex than a great pyramid, perform chemistry or alchemy with rigor and skill, understand the interactions of biological systems, or study rocks, stone formations, geologic behavior, and material strength.
• Use or control powers from Arcane Background (Weird Science).

Some of that makes a lot of sense for a world of roughly medieval technology relying upon magic to solve many of the problems that real world had to invent new systems. The things those skills are for don't exist in the setting.
Some of the 'existing applications are now covered by this other skill' are good setting notes - bad for the overall rule system but a great consolidation for a specific setting. Also a nice way to highlight very limited knowledge that leads to tons of confusion - similar to medieval ideas of biology, chemistry, and physics.
Some of those changes imply that the one making changes has no idea what the skills do, and they are being deleted because the one changing things doesn't see a use for them.

That last category is the one that needs attention and care.

[Crimson]

Desk, thank you this is a great idea and I will work that up to be more descriptive Settling rule on languages and common knowledge. What I am presenting here are thoughts and ideas, not a finished product of a conversion.

I dont see in SWAdE's Repair description that it is the build skill.

As I mentioned above, I don't see a game use for Gambling. The folks are not hopeful, that has passed for most. Their is an example where a hero saves a villager from an attack, but the villager's family rats out the hero to the authorities since a rebel will bring more problems for the town.

In some settings Academics as a superskill could be a problem, but in the Midnight Setting it would not be. Same is true with the CM skill being linked with languages (their is only one content of play and races aren't super diverse in location or culture where mechanically this would be game breaking). I had a character in our d20 game, that knew some elven language (its complicated, he was human) and had some experience with levels to get it so he had some knowledge of elven culture and the other characters were in awe since they never even saw an elf before play.

I do see what you say about the person being the repository of information, I get a Fahrenheit 451 type tension that is actually built into the character class (Hermetic Channelers, the wizard subclass whom have a class feature of literacy; and also in a prestige class or 2). Illiteracy should be a setting rule as well.

Thank you for your input.

[Crimson]

Val, I see your point about Gambling and will not ban it, but I will mention a comment somewhere how it is rare and players or characters will need to drive the skill as a sidebar as a warning.

[paladin2019]

RE: Repair and making stuff. What other skill would you use? You can ban Repair and add Crafting, but what do you get? Can Crafting be used to fix stuff, too? Now you're just changing the skill's name. Given your players, this may be right answer if they're coming to SW from d20, but it's a general disservice to them not to use the published terms they can use to refer back to the rules. YMMV

RE: Driving. I concede the point. I had it in my head that it wasn't restricted to horseless carriages and Riding was riding rather than a more general handle beasts skill.

[strike]RE: Gambling and hope in general. The peasants who turned in the rebels DO have hope, hope that their obedience means they aren't punished for harboring the rebels. And they're gambling that they're right about the way the BBEG's mooks will see it[/strike] Already discussed

RE: Illiterate. Have you considered that an Illiterate character can't do more than simple arithmetic? (No calculators/apps/smartphones/scratch paper or long division at the table!) Do characters get the hindrance point? For a concept, how do I build a character who is a member of the underground librarians' guild and has to keep his literacy a secret? Can I swap Illiterate for Secret (Major)?

[ValhallaGH]

A universal Hindrance can be a fine setting rule. Just make sure you include a fitting Edge or other setting rule for those characters that have overcome the very common drawback.

A good example is Poverty in Deadlands: Noir. For a game set during the Great Depression, everyone starts with Poverty. You can take the new Comfortable Edge to remove that, getting your character to a stable wealth on par with the default assumptions. Comfortable is now required to take the Rich and Filthy Rich Edges.

Universal Illiteracy would require a specialized edge to counter. Something like:
Educated (Background)
Requirements: Novice
The character has been taught the forbidden arts of letters and mathematics! These forbidden skills let the character decipher ancient markings, transmit messages through pictograph codes, manipulate large numbers, and much more. It also makes the character a repository of lost and illegal knowledge, easily coming afoul of the forces in power.
In addition to removing the Illiterate Hindrance, the character's Smarts is considered one die type higher when advancing the Academics skill.

Then note that Scholar requires the Educated edge.

---

Savage Worlds, rather pointedly, has no rules about creating anything except for the McGyver and Artificer Edges.
Artificer uses Power Points and magic.
McGyver uses the Repair skill.

From that we can infer that crating either happens automatically or, for new or improvised or experimental creations, uses the Repair skill.

[Crimson]

Val, there is a way to overcome it. As Arnon suggested you can spend a point (effectively a skill lower then linked attribute) to gain literacy in a given language. This illiterate is slightly different then the flaw as it doesn't stop other learning skills. I had suggested maybe a feat that opens it, but he was right that the skill point is a simple and smart fix.

I also have were PCs and companions will gain for free Common Bond.

Fair enough that Repair is implied (but not explicit) to be the build things, but I don't want a Investigate means Research Deluxe issue with players. So I will add it to the description and hopefully people understand that. I think it is because they don't focus on characters crafting or having a profession. My character is going to go be a tailor, so let's make money building things instead of adventuring or continuing the story.

[Deskepticon]

Crimson No problem.
I think a majority of the changes you've made fit the setting very well.

One of the most important things to understand about Savage Worlds is that the skills are intended to be broad and fairly nebulous. There's no "one true" definition for each, as that definition would change with each setting.

Healing in a modern setting would likely focus on disinfectants, antibiotics, and notions of "sterility." In a setting like Midnight it might mean chewing on leaf of athalas and stuffing it into an open wound... or maybe using leeches in lieu of disinfectants. Methods, however, do not change the mechanics of the skill.

And that's really the crux of the issue: look at the mechanics of a skill to determine its application.

The argument for the traditional use of Gambling has already been made, so I won't beat that dead horse. Mechanically, though, Gambling is at its heart an alternate way to make money/procure items. In Midnight, a "gambler" might be the guy who knows how to get things. His "ante" represents the bribes he must pay to keep mouths shut, and 'cheating' fits this re-conceptualization pretty well too.
Mechanically, the skill remains the same, only the connotation changes. And in a setting with no functioning economy, "Gambling" might be the ONLY way to get anything.

_____

SWADE as consolidated most "knowledge" skills into Academics (soft sciences), Science (hard sciences), and Common Knowledge (current events/politics/worldly awareness). Keep in mind, that EVERY skill has a knowledge application attached to it: Healing deals with forensics; Battle can cover historical events related to war; Miracles can ponder the mysteries of theocracy; etc.

In a setting where formal education doesn't exist, combining Academics and Science into one skill can make sense. Likewise, in a setting where language plays an important role, it makes sense to inject a bit more utility into each Language skill by giving it a limited capacity for geographical/cultural knowledge. As mentioned, it's a good idea to "formalize" these changes as a Setting Rule.

_____

And of all the changes, the ones involving Language look to need to most attention. As I mentioned, Language (having the importance it does) should have a point-evaluation attached to it. Especially considering they now double as a source of information.

This can be addressed in the aforementioned Setting Rule. Each race can be given a number of free, pre-allocated Language points built into their racial build (I'd go with 4), then perhaps an additional number of points equal to half Smarts die to reflect the importance of Language. If a character needs more, they might take the Linguist Edge or simply spend their skill points.

You also need to clarify how the Orc's Polyglot ability interacts with the Setting Rule and Linguist (that is, if it doesn't simply provide the Edge).

_____

I haven't looked over the revised races yet, but I will. Stay tuned.

[grandmastergm]

Did anyone see the Midnight Chronicles? It was a quixotic attempt to turn the setting into a TV series and I think they even put in a conversion to 4E with some versions of the DVD. Did they ever attempt to update it to 5E?

[ValhallaGH]

You don't "convert" from 4e to 5e. You rebuild the concept with the entirely new mechanics.

[Crimson]

I did see the following for 5E (from 3.X, which the game orginally was made for, both 3.0 and updated to 3.5 with its second edition):

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2ztdvg/5e_midnight_campaign_setting/

specifically https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...xDaEhHl3A/edit

But I think that the attrition based DnD is not the best vehicle to this setting, which is why I and Arnon are looking to do conversion with Savage Worlds.

Midnight Chronicles was a direct release movie, and it was a train wreck, glacial was a buddies best digest of it.