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  • #31
    Thank you Deskepticon for the initial feedback and time. As stated above, my idea is to pair down to maybe 20, but for the first version wanted to give it the old college try. Some may be folded together with options at a level or two (Pureblooded and Jack-of-All-Trades or Painless and Ironborn).

    My concern with Nimble and a few others was offering copyrighted material. my copy has the verbiage for reference. does it need to be referenced?

    I was being lazy with the Attribute, you are right, I should right it out as in increase.

    Beast, I think maybe i will flip Claws to Seasoned and start with Berserk at novice. Boost is very similar Berserk. Based in the source material, they gain traditional boost type powers. Since it is pretty powerful, i offered it late with restrictions.

    Chanceborn, good catch with the skill, yes a free d4 (d6 if a core skill). Elan, not sure what else to offer maybe Great Luck or Scrounger.

    Charismatic, Followers/Sidekick is a slight increase, but not much sooner. I am not sure how to balance their Boost power, the power point reduction was due it being Spirit based as opposed to a skill. They have a bard type quality, so I think it fits. I did offer a Leadership enhancing to one of the paths, perhaps this can be merged with that one or repeated here.

    Earthbound, I swapped Darkvision to Veteran with Burrow to Heroic. I also added invisibility to their ability to "see" as long as the thing is moving. Yes most of the non-human races gain IV or LLV. I dont think they should gain more, they dont have to take a specific path. Also I see the setting as being very Tolkieneque, where the other races are fading, so they are already second class citizens.

    Faithful, I would consider Holy Warrior a restricted edge in this setting (only bad guys and 3 heroic paths as it stands now have access to Miracles), so they are getting access to something normally off the table, I think I am fine with this being a rank delayed. Also my formula that I tried to stick to is assigned attribute at Seasoned and choice attribute at Veteran.

    I am not sure how to handle if they have them, perhaps I can offer an alternate list. Even if they have them as Arcane caster (only magic generally available) they would be scentless casting for the ability to be tracked in the setting and new powers is not normally available for heroic path arcane backgrounds, noteable exception is the Dragonblooded, a super caster if you will.

    Thanks again,
    Please come on down and see my SWAG. There I have a Settingless line of pdfs to enhance your Settings with new Setting Rules. Also I have a variety of 3D models for you to print your own Wild Card, Extras, Templates, and Status play aids.
    https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse....ristian%20Merz
    Happy Gaming

    Comment


    • Deskepticon
      Deskepticon commented
      Editing a comment
      P.S. - If you want to throw up props in your product, you certainly can. Something like: "The mega-magic powers in the document originally appeared in Rifts for Savage Worlds." Technically (i.e., legally) it's not required, but it's always nice to give credit where credit is due.

  • #32
    my copy has the verbiage for reference. does it need to be referenced?
    The nuances of copyright are often misunderstood. This isn't made any easier in this day-and-age of blatantly frivolous "copyright strike" claims on a particularly popular video-hosting site.
    The main point of copyright is to protect the financial interests of the party. This extends to "intellectual property" as well, and this is where nuance plays a part. In order for a product to become an IP, it needs many connected parts making up the whole. Copyright secures the whole, but not the individual parts. There is numerous case law on copyright claims being dismissed based on this fact.

    Generally speaking, copyright does not secure "ideas" that don't meet the grounds of an IP. This includes game mechanics. However, trademarks are a separate issue that play into copyright. A trademark is anything that signifies and identifies a brand. It could be a logo, a slogan, a symbol, a certain combination of colors, and (for the purpose of gaming systems and settings) names.
    ..."Savage Worlds" is a trademark of Pinnacle, as are all the names of Edges, Hindrances, powers, Setting Rules, et cetera as they apply to their given description. This last part is important. The term "Dodge" is a trademark only when combined with its mechanic. This means that: a) the term "Dodge" can be used in other gaming products with different mechanics attached, and b) the mechanics of Dodge can be reproduced under a different name.

    Both the Fan Licence and SWAG Licence award you the privilege of referencing PEG's trademarks. Essentially, you can use the term "Dodge" to refer to the applied mechanic, and even include a brief description of that mechanic if it holds some further merit to your product. What's expressly forbidden is making a list of all (or even many) Edges, Hindrances, powers, et cetera, with attached mechanics, for no other reason than reproduction. As cheesy as it sounds, you can create an Edge called "Side Step" and give it the listed benefit of Dodge, and it would be perfectly legal. Corny and unethical, but legal.

    The crux of the matter is whether or not your product poses a financial risk to whoever you are copying. If you make a perfect clone of Savage Worlds, changing only the names, you'd be safe from trademark violations, but the parts that make up the whole would infringe on PEG's intellectual property claims. That could constitute a copyright claim since the two products would be virtually identical. It also depends on whether or not the infringed-upon brand wants to press charges. That's why Pathfinder exists, because WotC weren't interested in maintaining their 3.x brand any longer (also, they were still selling books because of the compatibility between systems... so it came down to "make a bit more money" or "spend money in lawsuits and still lose revenue." Kind of a no-brainer).

    The long-winded point is, no company owns a claim to a game mechanic, just the trademark attached to it. Courts will dismiss claims that show no direct impact to the sales or integrity of an infringed brand, meaning lawsuits are uncommon except in extreme cases. Specifically, the mechanics of mega-magic can be recreated in your product with little to no impact on the viability and integrity of the Rifts setting. At the very least, you can change the names to fit your setting better.

    Hope this helped ease your mind.

    DISCLAIMER: I'm not a lawyer, so don't treat this as legal advice. It's merely an opinion derived from reading case law and judging the practical turn of events from taking the actions stated above. Always do you own research!

    Comment


    • Crimson
      Crimson commented
      Editing a comment
      I will have to look into this. Thank you for your time and understanding on the matter. I have not looked into the Fan License or SWAG yet

    • Deskepticon
      Deskepticon commented
      Editing a comment
      Crimson Make it a priority to familiarize yourself with the Fan Lincense, since if you ever want to release your Midnight conversion it would have to be under those terms.

      Also, if you want me to clarify anything in the above post, just ask. I tried to cram about 50 pages of case law into a few paragraphs, so naturally things got condensed.

  • #33
    Okay, so to avoid repetition, I won't list entries that have similar feedback to things I already addressed. Namely, the wording on attribute increases and Edges gained at a Rank after they are already available. I know you have a pattern you want to adhere to, but open mind can be beneficial here.

    Fellhunter
    • Detect undead says it ignores line of sight, but doesn't give a range for the effect (note that the Range listing of a power is the distance to the target; you've already changed this to Self).
    • Iron Will is an expansion of Strong Willed. It doesn't work unless the character has Strong Willed to base it off of... so what's up here? Does the path give both Edges, or did you intend to give Strong Willed instead?
    • "Disrupting Attack [2]: Once per encounter..." Is there a reason you aren't using the "spend a Benny" mechanic for these abilities? Also, why not just give them the banish power since they already have an AB? I'd suggest giving them the power (a 1 point ability) and add the following text: "On a successful melee attack, the hunter may spend a Benny to immediately cast banish as a free action. The target of the attack is also the target of the power."
    Feyblooded
    • The power list is incredibly short. After char-gen, three New Powers Edges would give them the lot. Maybe bump the PP to 15 to compensate?
    Giantblooded
    • The issue I have with giving the path Brawny is that it necessarily precludes the character from other options. What if they wanted to play a smaller than average Giantblooded? Or a fat one? Can't do it with Brawny. I'd give them Size +1 instead and scrounge up another 1 point ability somewhere. Or... replace Distinctive Appearance with Big (-2) and give them Brute, Size +1, and a Strength die increase.
    • Fearsome Charge is a pretty cumbersome ability. There's a lot to unpack... ignore running penalty (+1), +2 to damage (+2, see No Mercy), and free Push result without a roll or MAP (+2). I'd simplify it by tweaking the existing SWADE mechanics of Wild Attack. Consider: "If the giantblooded makes a Wild Attack while running, they do not become Vulnerable." The bonus from WA cancels the running penalty and the character still gets the +2 damage. The benefit of the ability is doing that without becoming Vulnerable. Push attempts can always be made as a Multi-Action if the giant wants to knock someone prone.
    Guardian
    • For formatting reasons and also for consistency, I'd separate the Command Edge and the Fear bonus into two abilities. Something like: "Moxie: any Extras in the Command radius receive +1 to their rolls to resist Fear."
    • Man, you love those custom Arcane Backgrounds, don't you?! My concern here is if you are going to give the path warrior's gift, why the heck wait to Legendary to do it, when it is arguably going to be the least useful? Additionally, why saddle the player with Power Points at this stage in the game? Just say, "The guardian can spend a Benny to gain a one-time use of any Combat Edge he doesn't know, but meets the requirements for." Easy-peasy.
    Healer
    • Rejuvenation. I'm confused, six different ways. Why are you replacing the Crippling Injuries mod with something that does exactly what the Crippling Injuries mod does??? Also, the last part about rerolling failed Healing attempts reads like it's part of the Power Modifier. Does the character need to spend the +20 PP to get the reroll? Or is this, as I suspect, a different ability and it's just clumsily worded?

    Anyway, that's all I have time for now. Catch ya later!

    Comment


    • Crimson
      Crimson commented
      Editing a comment
      Thank you again Desk for your input.

      Generally, my players dont like spend a Benny type power, the vocal ones feel like it is a tax. But with the new deadlands, it seems more of a thing and it is growing on me.

      Quick side note, maybe with Holy Warrior, it can extend to an adjacent target's soak roll to make it a Veteran power?

      Fellhunter - I have added that it works within double Occult range when when outside of line of sight. i am not sure how to handle Iron Will, as it is just for Undead and relatively late in the progression maybe give them both Strong and Iron will but limit to Undead, or just give a stackable Arcane Resistance that only applies to undead. I was thinking of giving them something like Born on Christmas knack (negate power and cause them to roll or become shaken), I think I may go that way instead. I really like how you unraveled the Disrupting Attack, great solve.

      Feyblooded - I may increase their power list, but again being they are not Arcane casters, this magic is scentless a huge boon in this setting. They are not precluded to taking the Arcane Background (Magic) to round out powers they want. I may consider boosting the power points to 15, neat idea.

      Giantblooded - about the smaller then average option, i see you but that doesn't fit the idea of the path. You are Hodor, giants are in your lineage, you cant even take most of the Fey (dwarves, elves, gnomes or halflings by design). I don't love Brute as written, I have seen your House Rules and have considered that version of Brute. I am pretty sure on the Brawny being built in. I like the Distinctive Appearance, and the idea and certain characters will become magnets for problems and since in the setting their are next to no giants (outside some ogres and hill giants) and they are effectively used as slave labor for hauling and/or living siege weapons. I effectively too Charge and Overrun (I believe is the improved version) from Rifts and melded them together as they are a bit specific on their own. Your idea is interesting, I am not sure if it is a great ability considering it is heroic, but it is something that doesn't exist and that has its benefits, maybe they ignore the running penalty or instead of +2 it is +4.

      Guardian - I agree with your assessment that the Fear bonus should be broken out into its own line, it makes it less likely to be missed. I see the Gifted as a good way of circumventing the settings restriction on magic and . The benny idea is an idea is intriguing, but then they loss the versatility of giving it to others. Giving options I don't see as saddling, I see it as how you are a walking magic item that can do various need things in a moment.

      Healer - you do have a point, Crippling Injury is effectively Regeneration, I saw it more limited it can help a lame arm, not replace one. It is all in the trappings. I see how Rejuvenation can be confusing. How about this
      Raise Dead [1]: The Healer gains the Resurrection power with the following exceptions: The power suffers only a -4 to the casting roll (instead of the normal -8), but only works on decease only a day or 1 week if the Power (+5) modifier is applied.

      Rejuvenation [1] The Healer no longer is limited to one casting to attempt to remove a Crippling Injury. This power modifier also only takes an instant instead of one hour and finally, the recipient is no longer Exhausted for 24 hours after a successful casting.

      Again thank you for your time and advice.

  • #34
    That's one heck of an endeavor Crimson... well done.

    Personally, i'm still unsure how i would proceed with Heroic Paths... they are an integral part of the Midnight settings, but much less needed in Savage Worlds.

    My current thought on how to go about Heroic Path is either:
    1. Use something like previous edition Super-Powers starting at Novice with d4 and increase it by one die per Rank
      • optional: Every time the hero uses the power, the dice go down by one type, but will still allow the hero to roll as if unskilled (d4-2)
    2. ​​​​​​​I'm not very familiar with the super powers companion, but from what i saw, it might be a good fit as well, given the players a small number of points
      • This might be a better fit since it allow much more flexible powers along with harder skin, improved senses, etc..

    of course, i would have the players look over the originals to get some ideas... but i'm not averse to letting them create their own Heroic Paths

    Cheers,
    -arnon

    Comment


    • Crimson
      Crimson commented
      Editing a comment
      I am A) not familiar with Supers and B) rather have powers that are within the range of other abilities in the setting without opening that can of worms which Supers can be. Perhaps the open nature of SW verses 3.X allows for more choices where it is less needed, but I like this idea of an additional bonus each rank to make players feel special (i.e. chosen) in the down-trodden setting. Also with Supers not being SWAdE yet, I would prefer not yet go down that rabbit hole..

      for my players, I would allow them to either mend or build their own HP, but most want something to choose from. I one campaign, we had a character modify feyblood drastically to be a reborn elder fey, but otherwise I did an overhaul with a friend on all the HPs on the old Against the Shadow fan site.

      Thank you for the props,

      Good luck with your game and heroic path builds. As mentioned prior, I am thinking about pairing down since some repeat, but also I feel more options for players is great idea then limiting and everyone wanting to play the same 3 paths.

  • #35
    Originally posted by Crimson
    Generally, my players dont like spend a Benny type power, the vocal ones feel like it is a tax. But with the new deadlands, it seems more of a thing and it is growing on me.
    Spending a Benny to gain an ability has always been a integral part of Savage Worlds. I don't know how that can be perceived as a "tax." Spending and earning Bennies is an inherent part of the system.

    Quick side note, maybe with Holy Warrior, it can extend to an adjacent target's soak roll to make it a Veteran power?
    For the Faithful path, right? And I think you mean Veteran "ability," not power (just so we're clear on the intent here).

    Honestly, if I were you, I would seriously reconsider the order abilities were earned. Edges should be gained at their earliest possible Rank. Otherwise, as I've stated before, what's stopping a character from simply taking it normally, and then having their Heroic Path offer them nothing at the next Rank? That is a serious issue.

    It also stifles creativity and choice. If a Faithful wanted to take Holy Warrior at Seasoned because that's how they envisioned their build going, they are forced to wait so they aren't jipped by that decision. It all makes for a rather poor system design.

    I am not sure how to handle Iron Will, as it is just for Undead and relatively late in the progression maybe give them both Strong and Iron will but limit to Undead, or just give a stackable Arcane Resistance that only applies to undead.
    Hmph. Well the write-up doesn't mention anything about it being limited to just undead, so that's new information to me. If the goal was to just make the Fellhunter more resilient to undead magic, then Arcane Resistance would have been the better option. Go with the Improved version, but limited only to spells cast by undead.

    Born on Christmas is a good option too (just change the name to thematically fit the setting). I would leave in the Edge's restriction to certain ABs, since this is a fairly powerful Edge; spending a Benny to completely negate a spell AND have a chance of Shaking the caster is pretty dang good.

    Giantblooded - about the smaller then average option, i see you but that doesn't fit the idea of the path. You are Hodor, giants are in your lineage, you cant even take most of the Fey (dwarves, elves, gnomes or halflings by design).
    I'm confused. Why can't there be a smaller-than-average giantblooded? I mean, if you take all the giantblooded as an aggregate, some are going to be bigger and some are going to be smaller. The average is what the basic path represents. I'm not suggesting one is the size of a halfling, just smaller than the average giantblooded.

    I don't love Brute as written, I have seen your House Rules and have considered that version of Brute.
    I made house rules on Brute???
    Link, or it didn't happen!

    I am pretty sure on the Brawny being built in.
    A mistake, in my opinion, as Brawny is intended to represent someone larger than average for their species, not larger than the average of all playable races (same goes for the Small Hindrance). Also, that means no one can play an Obese giantblooded, and that makes me sad.

    I like the Distinctive Appearance, and the idea and certain characters will become magnets for problems and since in the setting their are next to no giants (outside some ogres and hill giants) and they are effectively used as slave labor for hauling and/or living siege weapons.
    None of this is lost if you use Big instead. Being Big is, by it's very definition, being distinct. Keep in mind, the racial abilities in the core rulebook are intentionally broad and general; you need to "fluff" them to make them fit your setting. Since Midnight downplays the use of technology, replace the "-2 to devices" aspect of Big with "marked for capture," or something similar.

    I effectively took Charge and Overrun (I believe is the improved version) from Rifts and melded them together as they are a bit specific on their own. Your idea is interesting, I am not sure if it is a great ability considering it is heroic, but it is something that doesn't exist and that has its benefits, maybe they ignore the running penalty or instead of +2 it is +4.
    Hmm, on further evaluation, my proposal probably is less than a +2 ability. However, I'm not sure about doubling the damage bonus. Going back to your original concept, I'll revise my proposal:

    If the giantblooded makes a Wild Attack while running, they do not become Vulnerable. Furthermore, if the target is at least Shaken by the attack they must make an Agility roll or fall prone.



    Guardian - I see the Gifted as a good way of circumventing the settings restriction on magic and . The benny idea is an idea is intriguing, but then they loss the versatility of giving it to others. Giving options I don't see as saddling, I see it as how you are a walking magic item that can do various need things in a moment.
    Sure, but you don't need to use an AB to do that. Many of these ABs only give one power, with (presumably) no option to take New Powers. Many of the paths bestow the AB at Heroic or Legendary Rank, meaning that players that spent this whole time not worrying about tracking PP are suddenly "saddled" with that responsibility... and for only one, single power. For many of these cases (especially the Self-only one), it'll be much more FFF to uncouple the benefit from the AB system. Perhaps attached to a Benny mechanic instead of burning Power Points.

    As for the Guardian's warrior's gift, that was my bad. I think I just assumed it was supposed to be Self-only. If he can cast it on others, then he probably wants access to the Additional Recipients mod.

    Healer -
    Raise Dead [1]: The Healer gains the Resurrection power with the following exceptions: The power suffers only a -4 to the casting roll (instead of the normal -8), but only works on decease only a day or 1 week if the Power (+5) modifier is applied.

    Rejuvenation [1] The Healer no longer is limited to one casting to attempt to remove a Crippling Injury. This power modifier also only takes an instant instead of one hour and finally, the recipient is no longer Exhausted for 24 hours after a successful casting.
    Raise Dead - A couple things... what if the character already took the power at Heroic? And does this replace the original power. In other words, can the Healer still attempt to resurrect people up to a decade dead at -8? It's not clear from the wording what the intent is.

    Rejuvenation - I had to read this a couple times to figure it out, but I think I got it. I'd restructure the paragraph to flow better and avoid the potential confusion I encountered. Something like:

    When using the Crippling Injuries modifier, the Healer ignores the 1 hour preparation time and the subject is no longer Exhausted upon recovery. If the initial attempt fails, the Healer has one chance to try again. If that fails, they cannot heal the injury.



    The reason for the "one time" retry limitation is because, if there was no limit, you might as well just consider it an instant success. With enough time, the Healer WILL succeed, so at that point any rolls just become a formality (and ultimately frivolous).

    ________

    There is a wider concern I have with the design of these Heroic Paths (some of which I alluded to in my opening paragraph) and that is expectation.

    Take the Healer, for example. Her "Hands of the Healer" ability, gained at Veteran, increases her Healing skill and natural maximum. Her magic is also governed by her Healing skill *. This means the character has every incentive to pump Healing to d12 before Veteran so she gets a free d12+1. Upon hitting Legendary, her first Advance should arguably be Professional, making failure ever so rare and meaning that the free retry attempt from Rejuvenation is now a lot less attractive. While the retry is a cool, thematic ability, it's probably something that should be offered earlier, when it would be more useful.

    I've noticed similar things in other paths. To reiterate what I said earlier, I'd strongly advise reworking the progression of these entries.

    I apologize, but I don't have the time or inclination to go through all 30+ paths. But browsing them, I'd probably only be repeating myself anyway. I earnestly wish you good luck, and hope you didn't think my critiques were overly harsh.

    Cheers!

    * This is a very dubious design decision I forgot to address in my initial critique. By making the Arcane Skill the same as the skill for mundane healing, you are doubling the character's potential. If she fails a magical healing roll, she can essentially "try again" with Mundane Healing at the same exact die type. This is a "hidden" benefit that does not get factored into your ability values.
    Last edited by Deskepticon; 07-19-2020, 11:09 PM. Reason: Fixed typos

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