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  • AB (Adept)?

    From a fluff standpoint, I don't like Adept. Specifically, I don't like that it requires AB (Miracles) and then changes fundamentally the way certain powers work. What are your thoughts on removing AB (Miracles) from the requirements list and making Adept its own Arcane Background, with available powers limited to those the Edge can modify? In doing so, I see this version granting the same 10 Power Points and 2 powers as AB (Miracles) as well as sharing the Protector "backlash".
    Last edited by paladin2019; 12-07-2018, 08:55 AM.

  • #2
    Adept is giving you more than a simple AB, it also gives a bonus to unarmed damage (if memory serves right) and the ability to activate Powers as a free action. These bonuses should be compensated with a ''weaker'' starting point. Maybe just give them one starting Power, or 5 PP.

    Aside from that, I see no real issue with having the AB (Adept) Edge. It disallows an Adept from taking the Holy Warrior and Champion professional Edges, but new Professional Edges could be devised to replace them. Like one allowing two power activations without MAP and another boosting unarmed damage even more.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
      From a fluff standpoint, I don't like Adept. Specifically, I don't like that it requires AB (Miracles) and then changes fundamentally the way certain powers work. What are your thoughts on removing AB (Miracles) from the requirements list and making Adept its own Arcane Background, with available powers limited to those the Edge can modify?
      I think it ignores the warrior-monk* inspiration of the edge, overlaps with Super Powers** too much, and that an AB with only five powers is nearly worthless as an AB.

      *Monk has had a holy man connotation for centuries. For most of history, being a holy man was the denotation of monk, and is still part of the denotation of other monastic words.
      ** Free Action casting / Self Only is a well balanced and well established trapping trade-off.
      In doing so, I see this version granting the same 10 Power Points and 2 powers as AB (Miracles) as well as sharing the Protector "backlash".
      Now I'm questioning the point of this house rule. What goal is it meant to achieve or problem is it meant to solve? Because this proposal simply relegates Adepts to a minor footnote of Miracles - a weak cousin that is okay at one aspect of being a holy man but sacrificed the versatility, utility, and firepower of a real holy man to do it.

      Contrast with an existing core rules Adept. One that has blast, greater healing, and divination in addition to boost Trait, deflection, healing, smite, and speed. This core rules adept is an easy match for most D&D monks, and can also drop a Flamestrike on blasphemous existences, cure the blind, and commune with their god (or divine representatives) to gain important information.

      Your proposal has all the limitations of the core rules version, including having to be holy by the tenants of a particular faith, but none of the growth options. In the narrative, your proposed version is in a worse place than the core rules version. Whatever issues you have with the narrative of Adept (issues you have not defined, and so we cannot help you address) are not fixed by this proposal.
      I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

      Comment


      • #4
        I should have started with consider everything I'm talking about through the lens of looking at how to adapt a D&D campaign to SW. Magic and Miracles, with the Troubadour edge from FC thrown in, are the only Arcane Backgrounds I'm including.
        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Contrast with an existing core rules Adept. One that has blast, greater healing, and divination in addition to boost Trait, deflection, healing, smite, and speed. This core rules adept is an easy match for most D&D monks, and can also drop a Flamestrike on blasphemous existences, cure the blind, and commune with their god (or divine representatives) to gain important information.
        This is exactly what I don't like. This is the version AD&D2 gave us in the CPH, a radical departure from the Bruce Lee/Kwai Chang Caine inspired monk of AD&D (one that's almost a thief sub-class). If you want "not-Jedi" (and the game includes laser swords, so why not?), then what you suggest is just the thing. But I'm more interested in Drunken Master or Fists of Fury.

        I also dislike the way that Adept handles the core powers. They stop working the way they did. How is this narratively explained? Is is kosher to re-learn a power if it has different trappings?

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        Now I'm questioning the point of this house rule. What goal is it meant to achieve or problem is it meant to solve? Because this proposal simply relegates Adepts to a minor footnote of Miracles - a weak cousin that is okay at one aspect of being a holy man but sacrificed the versatility, utility, and firepower of a real holy man to do it.
        I want skills and the inner techniques to be the focus here. Advancement is focused on a narrow list of powers supplementing Fighting, "athletics", the Martial Artist tree, and other Edges. I don't want the archetype focused on more spell power.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
          I should have started with consider everything I'm talking about through the lens of looking at how to adapt a D&D campaign to SW. Magic and Miracles, with the Troubadour edge from FC thrown in, are the only Arcane Backgrounds I'm including.
          Troubadour is garbage (mechanically it's a power loss for the character; they spend an Edge to become weaker) and makes no real thematic sense - bardic magic is divine in nature!? Maybe if the God of Performance is a thing, but vanishingly few settings have that, and to my knowledge D&D has always held bardic magic to be arcane in nature.

          Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
          I also dislike the way that Adept handles the core powers. They stop working the way they did. How is this narratively explained? Is is kosher to re-learn a power if it has different trappings?
          What a game mechanic looks like in setting is setting dependent; personally, I explain it the same way I explain a character's Champion edge activating - they've internalized divine power such that it works differently for them than it does for other characters. Adepts focus their miracles on their own battle prowess, able to become swifter, stronger, tougher, and more almost instantly - some even master healing their own wounds without slowing combat. It's a heck of a fighting style, built around turning their bodies into instruments of divine retribution.
          Yes, it is generally okay to learn a power a second time to get different trappings.

          Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
          I want skills and the inner techniques to be the focus here. Advancement is focused on a narrow list of powers supplementing Fighting, "athletics", the Martial Artist tree, and other Edges. I don't want the archetype focused on more spell power.
          Then use the core rules super powers. Arcane Background (Super Powers) is nearly perfect for wuxia style mystical martial arts. Make the arcane skills a bit easier to get started (half an advance, free with New Power, or something else) and set the power list at something you're comfortable with and Super Powers monks will have the technique focus of a Shonen character - with a sane power level.

          If you want Bruce Lee then take a ton of Combat edges, notably including Martial Artist, Improved Martial Artist, and multiple iterations of Master Martial Artist. You'll have a character with an insane Parry (up to 14), cool tricks to handle almost every combat scenario (groups, holding actions, being shot at, charging, one-on-one duels, etc.), a furious fist that can reliably one-shot a dragon, and no magic to distract from kicking butt.
          if you want to use magic to make something that can mimic Bruce then the Adept edge is pretty good. Alternatively, the Super Powers variant of Arcane Background will serve well.
          I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
            Troubadour is garbage (mechanically it's a power loss for the character; they spend an Edge to become weaker) and makes no real thematic sense - bardic magic is divine in nature!? Maybe if the God of Performance is a thing, but vanishingly few settings have that, and to my knowledge D&D has always held bardic magic to be arcane in nature.
            Bards started out as divine casters, before the distinction between divine and arcane was made. (Reincarnation was even on the magic-user spell list, albeit with a different table of creatures from the druid version.) AD&D bards are druids casting druid spells, albeit druids who are much more fighty and sneaky and stack extra abilities on their druid abilities.

            BTW, why do you consider Troubadour a power loss? If this is your character concept, it's likely Perform is higher than Faith anyway, and the casting skill having a secondary function (mo' money) that gets to use Charisma is a boon. My only complaint is that maybe changing casting skill isn't worth am edge. As for why it's divine, I suppose it's because FC doesn't allow magic to heal. This all makes me think it needs to be it's own AB with a unique list of allowed powers.


            Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
            What a game mechanic looks like in setting is setting dependent; personally, I explain it the same way I explain a character's Champion edge activating - they've internalized divine power such that it works differently for them than it does for other characters. Adepts focus their miracles on their own battle prowess, able to become swifter, stronger, tougher, and more almost instantly - some even master healing their own wounds without slowing combat. It's a heck of a fighting style, built around turning their bodies into instruments of divine retribution.
            What I don't like mechanically is that the character suddenly can't heal or boost or etc others, even if he can do so faster for himself.

            Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
            Then use the core rules super powers. Arcane Background (Super Powers) is nearly perfect for wuxia style mystical martial arts. Make the arcane skills a bit easier to get started (half an advance, free with New Power, or something else) and set the power list at something you're comfortable with and Super Powers monks will have the technique focus of a Shonen character - with a sane power level.
            So your recommendation is to tie Adept to AB (Super Powers) rather than Miracles? I can work with that.
            Last edited by paladin2019; 12-07-2018, 09:32 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
              Bards started out as divine casters, before the distinction between divine and arcane was made.
              That's a contradictory statement. The logician in me needed to point that out.

              Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
              BTW, why do you consider Troubadour a power loss?
              Because instead of sinning being a role playing choice, it's a die result. Roll a 1 on Perform die? That's a Minor sin, have a -2 on all Perform rolls for a week. Roll a Critical Failure? That's a Major sin and no power use for a week.
              In compensation the character never has to worry about Mortal sins, barring an extreme RP scene, and can make some extra pocket change.

              In my evaluation, that's a power loss.

              Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
              What I don't like mechanically is that the character suddenly can't heal or boost or etc others, even if he can do so faster for himself.
              That assumes the character ever used those abilities on others.
              But I can understand why that might be a sticking point.
              I'll note that Adept is a Professional Edge, representing "many years of training." The changing powers isn't a sudden thing, it's part of an ongoing process where the Adept is transforming her body into a holy weapon - she's actually becoming a holy avenger. There are going to be some oddities along the way, but it's not like a cleric is going to hit 55 XP and suddenly become a monk that can't heal others - not without building up towards it.
              I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

              Comment


              • #8
                Another thing to remember is that Adept, as written, is mostly about giving AP to your unarmed attacks. The character then has the option of changing those powers to self only, and one at a time.

                IMO, if you are an unarmed fighter being able to give your attacks AP is a really nice benefit from an edge.
                I have way too much time but do not always edit myself properly. Please do not take offense.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
                  That's a contradictory statement. The logician in me needed to point that out.
                  3e codified the arcane/divine distinction. Based on how those rules shook out, bards would be divine casters in AD&D.


                  Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
                  That assumes the character ever used those abilities on others.
                  No, it doesn't. If a power has a range of touch and then has a range of self, it doesn't matter if it was ever cast on someone else, it could be and now it can't.

                  Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
                  I'll note that Adept is a Professional Edge, representing "many years of training." The changing powers isn't a sudden thing, it's part of an ongoing process where the Adept is transforming her body into a holy weapon - she's actually becoming a holy avenger. There are going to be some oddities along the way, but it's not like a cleric is going to hit 55 XP and suddenly become a monk that can't heal others - not without building up towards it.
                  No, the cleric is going to hit 5 xp and become a monk who can't heal others. The requirements can all be easily met during character creation. It's two edges and 6 die types.

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                  • #10
                    The Adept Edge by itself is fairly well balanced. Its only stand-alone benefit is gaining AP 2 with unarmed attacks by spending 1 PP as a free action. That gives you a Str+d6, AP 2 weapon that cannot be disarmed every round as long as you continue to spend the 1 PP.
                    ... The Edge's optional benefit re-Traps a particular power once per Rank, but doesn't actually provide the power; you need to buy that separately. You can never convert a power and the Edge would still be pretty darn good.

                    But as an Arcane Background, Adept would be pretty weak. You're limited to only five powers and can't use any of them on allies. Perhaps if you axe the vow backlash and provide more PP you'd approach something more balanced, but at that point you'd be better off just taking AB (Super Powers).

                    Originally posted by paladin2019
                    What I don't like mechanically is that the character suddenly can't heal or boost or etc others, even if he can do so faster for himself.
                    But that's the trade-off for casting it as a free action. Otherwise the Edge becomes way too OP. However, allowing for free-action personal castings while retaining the power's normal utility for other targets is probably worth an Edge by itself, so that's an option for you. You can simple write a new Edge that does that for one of those 5 powers (assuming you have the power in the first place).

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                    • ValhallaGH
                      ValhallaGH commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Str+d4. d6 is at Improved, which is a really weak edge but unlocks the insane combo of Master.

                  • #11
                    Well, I guess it's moot now, with SWADE nixing the edge completely for the once/combat Chi edge....

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                    • #12
                      Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
                      Well, I guess it's moot now, with SWADE nixing the edge completely for the once/combat Chi edge....
                      Yeah, but Chi gives that unarmed warrior a supernatural "oomph" to perform above and beyond. Not to mention the general improvements to the unarmed combat edges (Brawler, Bruiser, Martial Artist, and Martial Warrior).

                      AB (Gifted) is pretty sweet now, too.
                      I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                      Comment

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