Play Session FC 1.2 rules

[Psitraveller]

I have not updated my play sessions for a couple of sessions now. We have not had a lot of playtime, just a couple of shorter sessions. The group has had advances though, and things are getting interesting power wise.

The Warlock double classed into Summoner. This shares the same casting stat, so no loss in casting power skill. The Powers selected were Beast Friend, Boost/Lower Trait, Summon Ally, Summon Monster and Burrow. This gives the Warlock Summonable Monsters and Allies for 5 minutes for a discounted cost (-2 points min of 1) (pg 92)
improved their Smarts, looking the improve their casting and Occult skill next Advance. The Tinkerer took more Power Points.

Combat and exploration took an interesting turn. The Warlock/Summoner spent some points and Mind rode an earth elemental to slide around inside the walls of the dungeon, peeking out and looking for targets/guards/monsters. They described the rooms as they went and a rough map was made. The group found an area they wished to explore/attack and headed off to attack.


The SWADE adventure deck reared its head. At the beginning of the session an Uh-Oh card had been drawn. This let the players draw and use a second Adventure card, but the group would be attacked by a strong and dangerous monster out for blood. So a nasty underground battle erupted as the group was headed to their objective, a patrol found them in the halls and mayhem ensued.

I mean that literally. The Death Cleric tried out their new Havoc power, with excellent and bone breaking results. The Tinkerer had a critical failure on their first attack roll of the evening, a funny and disastrous event. Their best weapon was down until an hour of repair time. (Burst flamethrower). They shifted to their Bolt gun and continued fighting, but wanted to leave the area. Several other cards were played. The enemy Necromancer's attack (an extra pointed Bolt spell) was turned into a Critical Failure. This caused a Corruption event for the Necromancer. This did not matter as a Burst from the Warlock ended any issues the necromancer would ever have. An Adrenaline Surge allowed another attack that caused even more mayhem. The Sorcerer was summoning an Attendant every round and causing issues from behind the patrol as a distraction. These Attendants were all combat enhanced to be more effective.

The group was successful but decided to return to the dwarven area to allow the TInkerer to repair his flamethrower. As more enemy approached the Summoner summoned Crocotta after Crocotta, one per round (Summon Monster page 132), These cost 2 points each. He summoned 4 of them. he sent the Crocotta on an attack run. So he had spent 10 points total as a Summoner, 8 of them on Crocotta. These now had fighting d8, and d8+d8 damage. These monsters held back the second wave of attacking bandits and undead, dealing some very good damage against the enemy. They were destroyed, but the delay allowed the party to retreat.

The party is now resting for an hour while the Tinkerer repairs his device, then may rest another hour to regain all their power points spent. Their next move will be to attack the area they first mapped out.
The Warlock/Summoner is planning on spending his 15 points on several Crocotta and some cockatrices. These flying, petrifying death chickens fly at pace 9 and drain a Agi dice with a hit (not even damage). So the Summoner will send in a few of them flying ahead of the party to soften up the enemy. They cost 2 points each with the Summoner discount, 3 with a raised trait (fighting most likely),

A handful of Crocotta will add some muscle to the flying corps . The Warlock will use his Warlock points to fight with. So double classing has given him 30 points to play with in 2 15 point blocks. 15 for the Summoner and 10 for the Warlock and 5 for the Warlock familiar. They are planning to take Power Pool at Seasoned to have 30 points in a single pool, and then they will no doubt Summon a flock of death chickens.

So that is the group as it stands. All casters, all ready to attack the evil guys in their lair, using all sorts of Summoned critters to soften up the enemy. I am waiting to see their faces when I trot out the Dispel AoE on them.

[Psitraveller]

Follow up post: Issues the players have raised.

1: How often can a player prepare a Power? The Warlock wants to prepare a 5 hour Protection Power, cast it on the entire party. Then prepare a Burst spell for use in combat. A prepared Burst is cheaper than a scroll of burst and can be modified for a cheap 10 gold a point by the Warlock. This is a good investment in time and gold, but only if powers can be prepared more than once a day.

2: Where can Rituals be cast? How long does a Ritual take? Having a spell last 5 days is a useful thing, and if a Ritual can be cast in under 5 hours, a prepared Boost Trait (Occult skill or Arcane) then all the better. Warlocks are excellent at Prepared powers, but the Sorcerer can Overpower to make sure a success is achieved. Cana group prepare a ritual in a dungeon setting if they have the time, space and components? Or do they need a lab? If they need a lab, what use is a ritual that only lasts minutes? (the 3 point version?)

[Donald Schepis]

We updated both Prepared Powers and Rituals in the next version, which have a much more robust design and should answer your questions.

[Psitraveller]

Awesome! That is excellent to hear. I am looking forward to seeing what the new rules are.

[SeeleyOne]

FYI: Regarding the Adventure Deck, if there are any cards that a GM does not want for a particular campaign, the GM may remove those cards so they cannot be drawn for characters in that campaign. For example, my son hates the Love Interest card, so he removes it whenever he is the GM.

[gigacanuck]

>All casters
>double classing
>using all sorts of Summoned critters
Ayo I think I spotted your problem, your players are a bunch of freaks. Quite frankly, they all deserve the Dispel you're about to drop on them, but on the other hand you need to have a genuine conversation with them about how the game is more fun for everyone involved when the party is mostly warriors being buffed and/or backed up by casters.

[Psitraveller]

Have to disagree with you gigacanuck. The group is having a lot of fast furious fun playing what they want to play. They wanted to try magic when the FC came out, so they each tried something.

And who defines what a warrior is? The Warlock may be the best swordsman in the group. His Parry might be low, or it might not be. That's the great thing about Savage Worlds, the choices you can make with a character.

A caster may be an awesome sword fighter as well as a caster. Light armor +2 Toughness, Protection Power for +2 Armor or Toughness (Add on a shrouding modifier to make it a little bit harder to hit him.) and he becomes a rather tanky player.

The double classing is a bit of a rules test. Multiple arcane backgrounds allows faster gaining of points than taking the Power Points Edge. A single Edge of AB Summoner gives 15 points. A second Edge at Seasoned allows Power Pool, combining the 15 points with the Warlocks 10/5 (personal/Familiar). Gaining 15 points the usual way would be 3 Edges of Extra Points, One per Rank), So no 15 points until Veteran level. So multiclassing is a bit of a rules dodge, but it makes for interesting characters. The class features are interesting as well. The long duration Summon and cheaper summon costs allows more tactical play with added tokens on the table.

As for the Dispel, there is an interesting thread about the DIspel power in the Chat forum. It needs some explanations added onto the Power description, to say the least. This is where the Prepared Powers and burning gold/cost of doing business can impact choices. Can/should a caster improve their casting dice if it will strengthen the power of other Powers cast during play. This increases the cost of doing business, and is a constant drain of money from the group. This makes players irritated (nothing annoys a player more than losing money), so is a lot of fun as a GM.

Bottom line we are having fun with the new rules and trying out the new system.

[Donald Schepis]

We've also updated the was dispel works in the new version to clear that issue up.

[gigacanuck]

You say all that and yet you're going to drop a Dispel on 15+ power points worth of summons. If it's fun to let your players run wild with their shenanigans, it seems counterproductive to Thanos snap their toys away.

[Psitraveller]

Of course the enemy will use spells as effectively as the party. Their warriors will be buffed, they will summon animals, monsters, allies, undead. They will Dispel and counterspell as often as they can. I am looking forward to seeing the updated Dispel description because I want to see how it handles the issues raised in the threads on this forum.

I'll use ambushes, traps, poisoned arrows to counter any and all shenanigans. It's the back and forth that makes for fun, memorable times. Well, that and the occasional hilariously bad roll or the amazing exploding dice that changes the fight in an instant.

So yes I am ready and willing to cast a Dispel on a pack of summoned creatures. Here is hoping the Warlock has a buff on his casting roll to win the opposed check.

[Deskepticon]

The double classing is a bit of a rules test. Multiple arcane backgrounds allows faster gaining of points than taking the Power Points Edge. A single Edge of AB Summoner gives 15 points. A second Edge at Seasoned allows Power Pool, combining the 15 points with the Warlocks 10/5 (personal/Familiar). Gaining 15 points the usual way would be 3 Edges of Extra Points, One per Rank), So no 15 points until Veteran level. So multiclassing is a bit of a rules dodge, but it makes for interesting characters. The class features are interesting as well. The long duration Summon and cheaper summon costs allows more tactical play with added tokens on the table.

This is precisely why wizard, warlock, sorcerer, summoner, etc. SHOULDN'T be their own ABs with their own PP pools, but just trappings of Spellcasting. The individual benefits could easily have been handled by regular Power Edges that make a caster better at a particular aspect of magic without adding the complication of an additional pool.

The original concept of "classes" was niche-protection. There was the tripod of combat/healing/magic, each with it's own strengths and weaknesses(*). Multiclassing was intended to bridge between niches. A warlock/sorcerer multiclass makes very little sense since they are both filling the same niche. Granted, Savage Worlds is a bit different since combat ability is directly tied to a skill, not a "class," so niche-protection is already blurred, but then that just reinforces my point that multiple ABs/magic classes is redundant and pointless. The bloat only serves to encourages min-maxing, or exploitation of some flaw where the mechanics converge (as your post illustrates).

Ultimately, I'm disappointed the Fantasy Companion seems to be trying to emulating the "Nu-DnD" model rather than embracing the roots of the genre.

(*) - Later on, the niche of "skill" was included with the addition of the thief class, leading to "the core four," and there's a good argument that the cleric should have been removed since it was just a fighter/magic-user multiclass, but I digress.

[paladin2019]

Ultimately, I'm disappointed the Fantasy Companion seems to be trying to emulating the "Nu-DnD" model rather than embracing the roots of the genre.

My feelings exactly.

[Psitraveller]

The skill based system of savage worlds makes classes problematic. A Warlock could be an olympic level fencer at 0 XP if they choose to be. d10 fighting skill is expensive to get, but will make a caster an incredibly dangerous opponent in a sword fight. This is far different than D&D with the attack skill going up as you advance in level. Even the Mystic Powers Edge showcases this issue. What are the "class" requirements for each Mystic Power? a d8 in a skill or Stat at Seasoned level.

The only classes that DON'T have healing are Diabolist, non-Water Elementalist, Tinkerer and Wizard. So the magic/healing distinction Deskepticon mentioned above is blurred. (Summoner is self only, but still, it saves a healing from another Healer)

The other major issue is that all the Powers, or every rank are pretty cheap to cast. There are only a few powers that cost more than 10 points. Major Healing, Mystic Intervention, Resurrection, Wish, Blessing. Modifiers may push the cost of a spell up, but the points regenerate fast, 5 points an hour or more. This makes magic always available to a party. Epic Mastery at Veteran level opens up a high fantasy level of power. Gates to other cities for under 10 points. So international travel via gate is available every 2 hours. If you take the fast recovery edges and have a familiar you never need a long rest to be able to do something magical.

Magic Item creation is profitable at Seasoned Rank. 500 gp in components and you can make 1000 gold to 2000 gold (with a raise) in a week. 500 gp profit a week is 70 gold a day. That is well above Opulent and almost at Lavish level of income. Magic Shops are bound to be a thing with RAW. Doubling or quadrupling your money every few weeks is bound to be something casters will be interested in.

Going into casting as Edges could also be problematic. My experience is with D&D 3.0 and 3.5. Feat combinations were an issue. You could make very powerful combinations of magic (and martial characters as well) with the right selection of Feats. If I could take the Warlock hex bag and the cheap Summoner Edge that would be awesome for Prepared Powers. Cue the Young Dragon for 5 hours at Veteran level. 90 gold for a dragon would be awesome. (Of course I think 700 gold for a Dragon is a good investment as well, which is what a Summoner in the book would pay right now.)

Until now Magic in savage worlds has always been short range (smarts X 2 is the long range standard, aside from Sound at Smarts X5). Duration was 5 rounds, 30 seconds. Now you can get 5 days with a Ritual, hours with a prepared powers. (Subject to the GM allowing whatever rare ingredients to exist and be available). Personally I see these types of enhancements as a money drain/investment and a way of giving players something to worry about, agonize over and debate the investment. It also offers new treasures to offer. Finding a caster's stash of ingredients is a good way of giving treasure, in a form you know they will likely use up. A thousand coins means shopping and haggling. A thousand coins worth of magical incense means a Ritual and 5 days of Arcane Protection. The party has burned through treasure and feels great about it, even if the spell only protects them a couple of times. I think it is a creative addition to the rules, but it cab definitely shift how a party operates, and some groups may not be happy about that.

So you have a system of classes tacked onto a skill based system. A powerful upgrade to magic tacked onto a fast and cheap magic system, and a magic creation ruleset added to a system that invites mass production of magic.

My players (freaks they may be) refer to a world like that as a "target rich environment"

[ZenFox42]

Deskepticon said : Ultimately, I'm disappointed the Fantasy Companion seems to be trying to emulating the "Nu-DnD" model rather than embracing the roots of the genre.

Psitraveller said : Doubling or quadrupling your money every few weeks [by making magic items] is bound to be something casters will be interested in.

I was SO looking forward to the not-since-SWEX-updated Fantasy Companion. Now from what I'm hearing about it, I'll probably never use it (I hate classes of any kind! - the five magic "classes" in the core rules are generic enough for me). And why did they add new Powers - if it's appropriate for a fantasy setting, couldn't it be potentially appropriate for any setting, and have gone in the core rules? Altho I might have to take a look at its magic-item creation rules, and tune them down a bit to lose the incentive to sell them - I've always liked the idea of PC's being able to make their own items...

[Deskepticon]

Years of playing 3.x and seeing the endless bloat of new classes /new feats /new spells suck all the life out of the game, I became very jaded with class-based systems. Recently, however, I've decided to look back on the TSR days with fresh eyes, particularly the Moldvay "Basic DnD" ruleset.

When you understand that classes were originally meant as different ways to engage with the game, and not just a means to get special snowflake abilities, it brings a new appreciatiation to the design. Even the concept of race-as-class (which I hated when I first heard of it 25+ years ago in my AD&D days, and held that opinion for a LONG time) started to make sense.

But the wider point is that classes need to operate within a class-based system. Beyond the "duh, obviously" statement, this means the entire system needs to recognize the role of each class as a form of system balance. Savage Worlds operates off a completely different sense of balance, so it can get away with blurring the lines between traditional classes. That also means that any attempt to add classes (or even the semblance of classes) to the system will require special rules interactions. That adds a degree of crunch that I personally find a) unnecessary, and b) unenjoyable.

That said, the Fantasy Companion still has a lot to offer, just as long as you remember to remove the baby from the bathwater before you dump it.

[Psitraveller]

I liked the old Fantasy toolkit Gear book idea. Take an Edge, Enchant 1 item. Artificers could Enchant an item to +1 when they first took the Artificer edge. Each advancement after that they could make a +1 item OR try (at -4 to the roll) improve an item to +2 Improved Artificer allowed Edges to be crafted into items. It was a simple system, and FC Deluxe copied the items from the gear book, but left out the crafting Edges. I thought that ruleset made magic items rarer and more valuable. FC 1.2 has meager gear worth 100 X d10 and d6-4 magic items. So magic is much more common. (If the GM uses that table)

The new FC just has 1000 gp a week of value or 2000 with a raise. So no limit to how many items you craft. Take the Boost Trait Power and you are set for life crafting skill items or trait items. Not sure what Power lets you craft potions of Recharge, but that's an option as well.

Adding new powers is not necessarily bad. They added some interesting trope Powers Summon monster/Undead/Animal. Blessing to explain why all the farms are successful. Lock and Unlock to mess with thieves. The Epic Powers add in the higher level options that make ore powerful opponents more worrying. The issue I can see happening is the cost is not that high, and the cost of getting points back is pretty low 200 gp for 10 points. Half that if you make the potion yourself. So spending a meager amount of money lets you unleash some pretty powerful effects.

[Deskepticon]

Psitraveller I wasn't sure if your post was intended as a response to mine or not, since it didn't really address the things I said, but rather only referenced them. I'll try to respond in a way that doesn't derail the thread.

The skill based system of savage worlds makes classes problematic. A Warlock could be an olympic level fencer at 0 XP if they choose to be... This is far different than D&D with the attack skill going up as you advance in level...

The only classes that DON'T have healing are Diabolist, non-Water Elementalist, Tinkerer and Wizard. So the magic/healing distinction Deskepticon mentioned above is blurred.

Yes.
The classic notion of "classes" being used as a form of game-balance doesn't exist in Savage Worlds. Instead, players advance their character around a point-equivalency system, where no matter what new skill or Edge they choose, all characters remain at roughly the same power level.

"Niche-protection" exists in a very mild form by making skills more expensive for those with a low linked attribute. The mage who dumped Agility is going to have a harder time learning to fight (amongst other things). It's not impossible to build the mage to be just as good a fighter as the warrior build, but it will bite into resources that might have been better spent elsewhere. Generally speaking, with d6 being the "average" for attributes, the system EXPECTS characters to spend 2 points (full Advancements) on at least a couple skills they want to be competent in. The "niche-protection" stemming from attributes only determines how soon or late that occurs.

The point I was making in my previous post was that there's no really good reason to split the various spellcaster-types into separate Arcane Backgrounds. Savage Worlds has always operated off the "pick your path" philosophy. Want to be a "ranger?" Take Woodsman, Beast Master, and Two-Fisted. You can even "multiclass" by picking any blend of Edges that fit your fancy (or fantasy). There are no issues because every Edge is designed around a point-equivalency.

Arcane Background is the Edge that gives access to magic... that's it. There is some niche-protection involved with the split between Magic and Miracles, delineating power lists and having different rules-interactions, but fundamentally they are the same. It was absolutely a tonal decission to split ABs apart since the Edge could have easily operated off the "pick you own path" philosophy. Want to be a cleric? Take healing. Want to be a classic magic-user? Literally anything other healing would fit. And if you took healing anyway... well, then you "multiclassed."

Now don't get me wrong, I agree with the split. It's a good way to categorize different forms of magic (or magic-like) abilities. Spellcasting is "arcane magic," Miracles is "divine magic," Gifted is NOT magic but looks like it, and Weird Science is an Arthur C. Clark quote brought to life. Blur the lines as needed. All I'm saying is, fundamentally, those distinctions can be handled through trappings. Which brings us to the issue I brought up in my previous post: what is the real distinction between the magic of a summoner and that of a wizard? If it's nothing other than trapping and maybe a couple specialized rules, then maybe it shouldn't be its own Arcane Background. What is the game "protecting" by keeping them separate?

The other major issue is that all the Powers, or every rank are pretty cheap to cast... This makes magic always available to a party... If you take the fast recovery edges and have a familiar you never need a long rest to be able to do something magical.

This was true before the FC update. Back when SWADE first dropped, there was a topic discussing the changes to powers, and I made an observation that the new rules made casters into "real" casters. In previous editions, magic users were often stingy with how they used powers; because of the slow recovery rate, they had to make every power count. With SWADE, they can be more cavalier, slinging bolts around like the fighter swings his sword.

The perceived power difference between Vancian magic and a "magic points" system is largely an illusion. Under a vancian system, a mage who prepares Gate can cast it maybe once or twice a day, but they still have every lower-level slot available to them. With a magic points system, casting Gate eats away the potential to cast those "lower level" spells too. You're simply trading access for flexibility. Also, vancian magic sucks! It's why even 5e has moved away from a "true" vancian system.

Magic Item creation is profitable at Seasoned Rank. 500 gp in components and you can make 1000 gold to 2000 gold (with a raise) in a week. 500 gp profit a week is 70 gold a day. That is well above Opulent and almost at Lavish level of income. Magic Shops are bound to be a thing with RAW. Doubling or quadrupling your money every few weeks is bound to be something casters will be interested in.

>audible groan<
If this isn't strictly a downtime activity, then it's a problem.

There's nothing wrong with characters wanting to make money, but it's how the PLAYERS engage with that concept /mechanic that matters. I can wax for pages on this topic, but this post is getting long enough.

Going into casting as Edges could also be problematic. My experience is with D&D 3.0 and 3.5. Feat combinations were an issue. You could make very powerful combinations of magic (and martial characters as well) with the right selection of Feats. If I could take the Warlock hex bag and the cheap Summoner Edge that would be awesome for Prepared Powers. Cue the Young Dragon for 5 hours at Veteran level. 90 gold for a dragon would be awesome. (Of course I think 700 gold for a Dragon is a good investment as well, which is what a Summoner in the book would pay right now.)

You've invented a problem that only exist in your head. I never said to take the current FC ABs whole cloth and turn them into Edges. I only said the concepts could be their own Power Edges, rather than full ABs. Edge requirements can also form a barrier to entry, so that only characters that are truly dedicated might qualify. For example, Warlock would likely require contact with some otherworldly being first to be the caster's patron.

So you have a system of classes tacked onto a skill based system. A powerful upgrade to magic tacked onto a fast and cheap magic system, and a magic creation ruleset added to a system that invites mass production of magic.

My players (freaks they may be) refer to a world like that as a "target rich environment"

I'm happy to hear that it works for you. Personally, I prefer to engage with the game-world first and rules second (and I encourage my players to do the same). To that end, there are portions of the Fantasy Companion that do not cater to my style. I find that unfortunate, but not a deal breaker. I can always mine the book for the great ideas that are in it, even if I don't use them "off the page."

Cheers!

[SeeleyOne]

The classic notion of "classes" being used as a form of game-balance doesn't exist in Savage Worlds. Instead, players advance their character around a point-equivalency system, where no matter what new skill or Edge they choose, all characters remain at roughly the same power level.

Classes were never about balance. If they were, a level would be only worth a level across the classes. You could take a level in Fighter or Thief (or Rogue, or whatever) and have the same amount of increase as a Cleric or Wizard. But... you don't. UNLESS you are using Savage Worlds where each Edge is worth an Edge. Sometimes Edges are worth more than an Edge and need to be tweaked or broken into two Edges, sometimes an Edge is under powered and needs to be beefed up a bit to be worth an Edge, but overall, most of the Edges are each worth an Edge.

[Deskepticon]

In classic DnD? Of course they were designed around balance. That why certain classes leveled faster than others. If you're only making a blind comparison of the various class abilities earned at each level, then you're missing the bigger picture.

Keep in mind, early DnD placed more emphasis on player skill than character stats. You didn't just roll Persuasion to convince a guard to let you in, you actually had to put forward an argument that the GM would weigh against the guard's Int/Wisdom. The inclusion of skill proficiencies and a stronger emphasis on objective success was born out of the Competition scene, where standards needed to made in order to determine a clear winner. Eventually that was codified into AD&D, with B/X continuing the "rules lite" approach.

But class balance was always a thing the developers strived toward.

[SeeleyOne]

Then it sounds lie we disagree on this one. I started with D&D in the early 80s. The XP table variation had helped, but the core issue was that a level was not worth a level across the classes. By level 7 only the Magic User (aka Wizard in later editions) starts to really leave the rest of the party behind. Another core problem, besides levels not being worth the same (such as an Advance is in Savage Worlds), is that full casters grow exponentially while non-casters, or at least not main casters, grow linearly. In Savage Worlds everyone grows linearly, and that is great.

[Psitraveller]

There is an old article (July 1986 Dragon #111, you can find it online) about the Magical City of Malachi. The author went through the magical rules and thought about how a magical city would be different from a filthy medieval city. So there are illusionists casting theatrical shows, the streets are lit by continual light spells, and temples create food and water to feed the poor.

There is a lot of fun in looking at the tools the rules offer you and building a world from those ideas. I've asked a lot of questions about magic Powers, and the answers I've received on the boards have helped build ideas to incorporate into my game world.

Not sure about the groan about the magic item creation. While player characters will want to make items it is likely NPC's that will be crafting the bulk of items for sale. And the ease with which items are made will shape the world the players adventure in. That being said I think some players will want to craft specific items to get them as soon as possible. Casting boosting items or Occult skill boosting items to make crafting and Preparing powers and Rituals are likely going to be priority purchases or crafting projects. Crafting NPC mages will likely be the rich magical merchant class, possible patrons and interested in hiring a party for missions to find rare ingredients. So the magical item creation rules can offer all sorts of adventuring opportunities.


And some items may warrant more time than strictly downtime. The Cup of knowledge offers a raise in smarts by a die type, a free Edge basically, plus the Curious Hindrance. Some players may want to take 8 months off and craft one of those. Or spend 4 months crafting a Staff of the Mage Lord to get 2 die type increase in casting ability. Those are 2 examples of gear that players may want to craft themselves. They may not be for sale, but will take months of game time to finish, years if you are only working on them the odd week of downtime.

My Warlock and Summoner abilities as Edges were a quick example of turning class features into Edges or Feat like options. Pinnacle is 3 edits into the FC. I doubt a new AB class structure is going to happen. I just gave a quick and dirty take on it. If you have ideas on how you think it should be start a thread, I'd love to see your thoughts on the idea! Or message me if you think the forum is not a good place for the ideas.