SPC 3 Power pricing issues - Pace, Super-Powered Allies and Growth

[dentris]

Many elements in this, but I think it's better to regroup them into a single thread.

Pace: In a world where doubling your Pace has the same cost, it's way overpriced. The alternative also already exists in the form of the Fleet-Footed Edge, which is even better for the same price (Super Edge). It's only redeeming feature is the +1 modifier to ignore difficult terrain, but for 4 points instead of 3, you can instead fly at a Pace of 12, which does everything Pace+Strider does, but way better for a meager 1 additional point. I would simply remove that power altogether. There are other ways to incease your Pace (Fleet-Footed and Speed), which are just better anyway. The Strider Power, however, is a nice addition, and could also represent someone hovering above ground as well as long legs.

Super Powered Allies: The Sper Powers modifiers for Sidekick and Minions is problematic. There are a lot of Powers and tricks which can be used to break the balance of the game with them. The fact bennies are also shared between the master and the sidekicks also opens up some weird interactions. I don't have obvious solutions to that one, except maybe reminding GMs of rule 0 and make sure they are confortable with flat out refusing some combinations of powers.

Growth: The price tag has been reduced, and the additional abilities when changing scale has been clarified. So a big thank you for that. But I think it isn't enough. +2 Pace, +1 Reach and +1 Wound would be worth less than 3 points all things considered, and the penalties from being Large or bigger is -6 per scale (arguably even worse). That still leaves a deficit of 3 points compared to someone who just invested in Toughness and Super Strength. The solution, I think, is already in the rules, however. The Stomp ability should be expanded. If you allow an attack under a SBT at Large, MBT at Huge and LBT at Gargantuan, ignoring Scale Penalties, I think it would be a nice, unique ability that would lower the impact of scale penalties quite a bit. In addition, melee damage modifiers (like Brawler and the Melee attack Power) should stack as well. I see no reason why they shouldn't.

[ValhallaGH]

No comment on Pace. That power does seem like it doesn't fit.

Good point on Minions and Sidekicks with powers.

Note that Growth can stack with Toughness above the limit. At Level II, Armor and Toughness have a combined cap of +10, but the +5 from TBTI Growth can add to that for +15 Toughness. It seems that PEG's valuation of Growth includes this fact.
Area attacks always ignore Scale penalties because they don't attack characters, they attack the ground. Characters in the area just happen to get hit as collateral damage. I'm guessing the note is in Stomp as a reminder / clarification for players that are expected to be kind of ignorant about how the rules work.
I don't like the idea of a 8' tall* super using Stomp to "step on" the 6'4" super punching his jaw. I suspect PEG feels similarly, which is why Stomp only works on creatures 2 Scale smaller (Normal or smaller for Huge; Large or smaller for Gargantuan).

*Correction: 13' tall.

[enmel]

I really like it, as it allows for powerful summons with powerful effects. Which is a common trope in anime. Talking about sidekicks and minions.

[Radecliffe]

Growth now costs the same as it did in SPC2 and you still get more from it than you did in the last edition. I certainly can't see reducing the price further.

For Pace I might agree that it should probably be 1 point except you are getting exactly what you'd get with the Fleet-Footed Edge which would cost 2 points as a super edge. Not every power cost will be equivalent even Pace and Speed for reasons. If you are making a hero that uses Pace instead of Speed there is probably a reason for it. If you think Pace is too expensive then don't use it.

[Radecliffe]

As to Growth we still disagree on disadvantages of being large and occasionally huge. I'm not even getting into the extreme edge case of gargantuan. I don't care if they can hit me if they can't hurt me and the swat modifier takes care of the offensive penalties. Also, +1 wound (same as a legendary edge), +2 pace (half of fleet-footed edge or a +1 racial mod) and +1 reach (also same as +1 racial mod) is objectively in the context of Savage Worlds worth 4 points per scale level. I think objectively that the size mods to hit and be hit are worth -4 per scale.

[Radecliffe]

Why? Because as I see it Pace and Speed are for two different kinds of Supers campaign. There is no need to use one to determine the cost other because you would use them for two completely different kind of heroes. Again I ask is Pace exactly like having a second copy of the Edge Fleet-Footed or is it not? It is so pricing it the same as the Edge is completely acceptable. As it says in the description if you want real speed use the speed power. What exactly is the benefit of offering a half price edge instead of leaving it as is?

[dentris]

I think we'll need to agree to disagree.

[Ghilz]

I really like it, as it allows for powerful summons with powerful effects. Which is a common trope in anime. Talking about sidekicks and minions.

The issue isn't having powerful allies. the issue is that you can break the math entirely, At higher PL, Sidekick and Minions becomes a power point multiplier. And that's without going into how Sidekick becomes essentially a massive benny pool. Powerful minions are fine but the rules shouldn't let them explode out of control with everything else.

Like I put on the feedback thread: It especially gets insane considering that both powers can be taken multiple time, leading me and my friend to hypothesize a scenario where my character in a PL 3 or more game is named "Zordon" and has 5 sidekicks named Jason, Zack, Billy, Triny and Kimberly in colorful outfits. All 5 each have 1/3 of my Power Points but theres 5 of them and thats 5/3 my Power Points basically created out of thin air and I now have 6 characters, 16 bennies between them and the shenanigan I can get up to now only get wilder from there.

[Radecliffe]

I think the issue with sidekicks and minions is something the GM would chime in on. It's up to them to decide if multiple sidekicks are going to break their campaign or not. For me I'd say it would be a hard no. Of course I'm not a big fan of sidekicks and minions in any SW setting so I'm biased.

[dentris]

Definitively. It would be too hard I think to name every single combination of Powers and circumstances that would break the game. But reminding any Sidekick or Minion's Super Powers is subject to the GM's approval would be good.

[Ghilz]

Part of me wonders if a side kick's super powers shouldn't be paid from the main hero's super power points

I mean this isn't like the legendary edge where you're getting a novice character in a legendary rank game here. You start at novice and you get a second (or third, etc...) novice wild card (Unless you're running rising stars). Your sidekick probably should also start with only 2 bennies (As per the Edge version) rather than three. Or the PP cost of giving them super powers should scale with the game PL.

[Radecliffe]

I wouldn't recommend splitting points between them. You'd just end up with two weak supers who are probably going to die quickly and/or horribly.

[dentris]

No comment on Pace. That power does seem like it doesn't fit.

Good point on Minions and Sidekicks with powers.

Note that Growth can stack with Toughness above the limit. At Level II, Armor and Toughness have a combined cap of +10, but the +5 from TBTI Growth can add to that for +15 Toughness. It seems that PEG's valuation of Growth includes this fact.
Area attacks always ignore Scale penalties because they don't attack characters, they attack the ground. Characters in the area just happen to get hit as collateral damage. I'm guessing the note is in Stomp as a reminder / clarification for players that are expected to be kind of ignorant about how the rules work.
I don't like the idea of a 8' tall super using Stomp to "step on" the 6'4" super punching his jaw. I suspect PEG feels similarly, which is why Stomp only works on creatures 2 Scale smaller (Normal or smaller for Huge; Large or smaller for Gargantuan).

My proposition is allowing a Large Super to attack a SBT by default. Size 4 is quite larger than 8'. That's more like an elephant, and I can totally see an elephant stomping through a small template with ease. Anything Size 3 or less gets no additional benefit, as the power is pretty balanced at 3/Level before Scale becomes an issue.

And while you have a good point about the Toughness limit, it would mean it's only a good idea to take Growth after you maxed out, which I feel is bad design.

Growth was overpriced in the SPC2 and while it's less of an issue in SPC3, it's still missing a little something (3 points worth of abilities at each scale to be precise) for it to be balanced with the other similar powers.

[ValhallaGH]

Well, apparently neither of us bothered to check the Size table in the core rules before posting. Large happens at Size 4+, generally a 12-15' tall humanoid or 1-2 tons. That's about the size of a compact car or a hippo, about half the size of an elephant (Size 6).

[dentris]

ValhallaGH My bad, I stand corrected. Thanks for actually checking it out. It might be short for a SBT, but still not impossible. Especially since Super Heroes have a tendency of making concrete fly in all direction when they punch the ground.

[Ndreare]

Not related to the numbers, but to me Growth "feels right" now.
The price is low enough to make it worth taking for my Karsa Orlong rip off character. But not so cheep I want it on any other characters.

[tsunami282]

I'm still not convinced v1.2 has nerfed Minions enough. We are at Power Level II, so the cap is 30 SPP. The PC has The Best There Is Edge, so his power limit is 15. Here's what he's done with Minions:

5 minions (2 x 5 = 10SPP), with the Super Powers (+3) and Summonable (+2) modifiers. Since the minions are subject to the PC's power limit, not the campaign's, they have 15 SPP to use.
- Damage Field (5) + Area Effect (2) + Permanent (-2) + Selective (1) = 6
- Flight (2)
- Intangibility (5) + Permanent (-2) = 3
- Invisibility (8) + Permanent (-2) + Personal (-2) = 4

So he has five invisible, intangible minions with constant 3d6 medium burst template fields of death that don't hurt his allies, all floating around the battlefield at a flying pace of 6.

This seems broken to me, and I'm probably going to issue some rule of max sidekicks + minions tops out at 3, just so that his turn doesn't take 10 minutes. It would be nice to see some sort of tweak to the rules to keep this more in line.

[ValhallaGH]

The PC has The Best There Is Edge, so his power limit is 15.

Yeah, that reads like a problem with the interaction with Minions. I suspect that, like Toughness, super minions should not care about The Best There Is.

Also, you're being entirely too generous to the intangible minions. Their damage only works while they are tangible, which requires a successful Focus roll from them. They're vulnerable to energy attacks, so a bunch of goons with flamethrowers can spray the relevant room and kill them if they enter. The damage field is not a Heavy Weapon, so they're useless against bullet-proof foes.
They're a cool bunch of naked murder-ghosts, great for killing an apartment building full of people in two minutes, but they shouldn't be a threat to villains that are more than human. Arrowhead would have a difficult time with them but Brimstone will kill them first and Warden gets to ignore them entirely.