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SPC Power Balance: Growth

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  • SPC Power Balance: Growth

    Since the feedback section is solely for errata, I'll post this here.

    Growth is ridiculously overpriced. It was already overpriced last edition at 3/level. Now it's 4/level. Let'S take a look objectively. Growth is basically a Super-Strength and Toughness power that can be powered down at will. Each level of Super-Strength is worth 2 points, and each level of Toughness is worth 1, so it means that at its barest, Growth should be worth 3 points per level. Sure, when you increase one's size you have circumstantial perks, like being taller, but you also have similar disadvantages like trouble finding cover. So I believe they balance themselves in the end.

    But that's not all. Things really begin to fall apart when you change scale. A Large creature gets -2 to all its attack and everyone gets +2 to attack it. That's worth at least 6 points to compensate (In fact, it would cost 8 Super Power Points to compensate) . So by reaching Size 4, Growth suddenly becomes way too costly. There is a slight bonus to changing scale, most notably +2 Pace, minor bonuses to Grapple and Push, as well as an additional wound, A fourth wound isn't as powerful as you might expect. It's about as good as a +1 Toughness according to extended testing on combat simulators. This math also holds up when you think about it. +1 Toughness means you will reduce the number of wounds you receive 1/4 of the time. Having a fourth wound means you have an extra 1/4 ''life'' before getting Incapacitated. +2 Pace is also very, very minor in a Supers game. For 2 points, you can double your Pace. So +2 Pace is worth less than 1 point in that regard.

    Let's be generous and say the Pace improvement is worth 1 point, the extra wound 1 point and the Push/Grapple bonus is worth 1 point, that's still at least 3 points unaccounted for. The only redeeming feature of Growth is the fact it stacks with Super Strength and Toughnesss once you reached the Power Limit. But that means the only time Growth would be worth is if you spent all the points you could spend on increasing your Strength and/or Toughness and wanted to specialize even more. Reaching Hige/Gargantuan also allows for a SBT melee attack at no penalty. It's neat, but the fact it's a simple Strength damage roll with no possibility of increasing damage gives it a very limited use.


    At this point, anyone who wants to make a Growth-based Supers is going to be significantly less powerful than a similar character who just invested in Super-Strength and Toughness. So he's effectively paying a ''cool'' tax on Super Power Points.

    I see two ways of resolving this. Either reducing the cost of the power everytime they increase scale, or give the power added utility. Regardless, it needs the cost also need be dialed down to 3/level. My personal preference would be to add the follwing abilities:

    Large and bigger supers: Each time the character's scale change, he receives the following abilities. +2 Reach, +1 extra wound, +2 Pace.
    Stomp: The character is also able to use it's size to make powerful strikes. His unarmed attacks affect everyone under a template (which may be improved by Edges or Powers). When attacking it this fashion, it doesn't suffer any penalties from Scale. Large supers affect everyone under a Small Burst Template, Huge ones affect everyone under a Medium Burst Template and Humonguous characters affect everyone under a Large Burst Template.


    With these added benefits and a cost of 3/Level, I think the attack bonuses against them and their attack penalties for everything except their Stomp melee attack are balanced by the added ability. It also does stuff Super-Strength and Toughness cannot do, which helps differentiate them.

  • #2
    I agree with this 100%. How do you represent those big heavy hitters who turn into 80' tall monsters when even at 20 point cap you stop at size 6 (5 levels of growth, plus brawny).

    I think the scale modifiers do a lot here for balance and the "right balance" would be something more like 2 per level even with all the scale modifiers.

    Comment


    • dentris
      dentris commented
      Editing a comment
      I wouldn't reduce Growth below 3/level. Because it's totally possible to have a character who increases in size, but not as much as to become Large. (Modern) He-Man being a prime example.

  • #3
    There is a lot more built in to this power than it used to be. You get bonus pace based on size, extra wounds, an AoE attack (Stomp.) Changing the power back to how it was originally (Size/Toughness + Strength) and putting it back to 3/level would be fine by me. Most of the rest was available in one way or another as modifiers anyway. So I'm not saying it's overpriced as is because I don't think it is but I'm not sure why they needed to make so many of the features standard. It's like modern car manufacturing. Always moving stuff to the standard feature list whether it needs to be or not.

    Comment


    • dentris
      dentris commented
      Editing a comment
      Radecliffe Swat isn't the issue. The penalty in itself is not a problem. Point-wise, however, it should be reflected in the Growth Power and it isn't. You are better off just being super strong and tough.

    • Radecliffe
      Radecliffe commented
      Editing a comment
      Well, I disagree but ok.

    • dentris
      dentris commented
      Editing a comment
      Radecliffe

      Ok, let's use math and real numbers to prove my point. Two characters. Tall Guy and Power Dude. Considering a base d6 in all traits.

      Tall Guy has Growth with 8 levels and Swat, for a total of 36 points. He has d12+5 Strength and a Toughness of 13. However, his increased size gives him +4 Pace, +2 wounds and the ability to make a melee attack under a template for d12+5 damage with no chance of ever adding damage from Edges or Powers. Everyone also has +4 on all attacks against him.

      Power Dude has 8 levels of Super Strength and Toughness, for a total of 24 points. He has a D12+5 Strength and 13 Toughness. The exact same values than Tall Guy, but without penalties and costing 12 points less.

      Do you consider the very limited bonuses a Huge character gets to be worth 12 points especially considering the bonuses others get against you, which would cost 8 Super Power Points to compensate?

  • #4
    What if each increase in Scale provided an additional die to Strength and Vigor?

    So the benefits for becoming Large would be:
    • (+2) one additional Wound
    • (+1) Reach 1
    • (+1) +2 Pace
    • (+2) +1d Strength
    • (+2) +1d Vigor
    ...for a total value of +8, offsetting the -8 value from the -2 Scale modifier.

    This is in addition to the Size increase, meaning that a Size 0 super who grows to Size 4 would increase Strength by 5 die types and gain +5 to Toughness (1 point of which comes from the increase in Vigor).

    Comment


    • Grave Knight
      Grave Knight commented
      Editing a comment
      Just want to point out toughness only increases after two die increases after getting vigor to d12. So even if vigor was at d4 it would only increase toughness by 4 not 5 (it would raise vigor to d12+1 which is still toughness 8 before armor and other powers). You need to get to vigor d12+2 for the next increase.

    • Deskepticon
      Deskepticon commented
      Editing a comment
      Grave Knight Good catch.

  • #5
    Originally posted by dentris View Post
    Large and bigger supers: Each time the character's scale change, he receives the following abilities. +2 Reach, +1 extra wound, +2 Pace.
    No other comments at this time, but larger characters already get +1 Reach for each additional Wound per SWADE.
    Clint Black
    Forum Admin & Rules Answer Guy
    Savage Worlds Brand Manager

    Comment


    • dentris
      dentris commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks. Good to know. The information on scale modifiers is scattered at like 3 different places in the core rules and I have trouble keeping track
      Last edited by dentris; 10-21-2021, 03:39 AM.
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