Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Powers and Game Balance

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
    Nox Stripes
    Registered Member

  • Nox Stripes
    replied
    Originally posted by Rick J'onzz View Post
    The "we win" button in my recently completed Deadlands game was Deflection applied to the whole group. It meant that the Huckster was pretty much useless for the rest of the fight (having thrown all their points into covering the group), but it also meant that the rest of the group didn't have to worry about cover and such. But I used a bad guy who used Deflection on himself and Dispel on the PCs which led to the hardest fight in the game and a PC almost dying.
    Yep, it is all about countering. Even if the players all have deflect going, Area Effect's like blast would still hit them directly. Against something like that ttheres not much protection except with the Arcane Protection Power.

    And if players abuse Speed / Quickness, theres nothing preventing their adversaries from utilising such strategies, is there?

    Leave a comment:

  • Rick J'onzz
    Registered Member

  • Rick J'onzz
    replied
    The "we win" button in my recently completed Deadlands game was Deflection applied to the whole group. It meant that the Huckster was pretty much useless for the rest of the fight (having thrown all their points into covering the group), but it also meant that the rest of the group didn't have to worry about cover and such. But I used a bad guy who used Deflection on himself and Dispel on the PCs which led to the hardest fight in the game and a PC almost dying.

    Leave a comment:

  • ValhallaGH
    Registered Member

  • ValhallaGH
    commented on 's reply
    Good luck!
  • Sablemage
    Registered Member

  • Sablemage
    replied
    OK, so I think I can summarise the advice as "read carefully what the power description actually says", which sounds less damaging than anything I came up with.

    I'll try that first.

    Thanks again, all!

    Leave a comment:

  • Sablemage
    Registered Member

  • Sablemage
    commented on 's reply
    Nope, that was one of the players talking the rest of the group out of facing down the NPCs.
  • ValhallaGH
    Registered Member

  • ValhallaGH
    commented on 's reply
    Buffs are always better when they augment someone that's already expert, and sharing the love makes it feel more balanced. But that doesn't make the older versions of quickness actually balanced.
  • gigacanuck
    Registered Member

  • gigacanuck
    replied
    Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
    ... Yeah, that's why the quickness power was cut and turned into a (much weaker) modifier for sloth/speed.
    But I have such fond Totems of the Dead memories of the caster character casting quickness on multiple characters, usually prioritizing the warrior characters over himself.......you know, however overpowered magic may be in any system, it's infinitely more tolerable if it's buffing allies instead of dominating the game on your own.

    Leave a comment:

  • ValhallaGH
    Registered Member

  • ValhallaGH
    replied
    Originally posted by Sablemage View Post
    Thanks everyone
    You're welcome!

    Campaign 1 used core Deluxe powers with the No Power Points setting rule (all others used Power Points). There were two spellcasters, the one with AB: Miracles didn't cause too many problems (Boost/Lower Trait was available but used sparingly) but the one with AB: Magic was overfond of Blast. However, the players concerned controlled themselves in the interests of the story. This was the least badly broken campaign.
    Yeah, 'buff' powers combine with NPP to be pretty strong. The cumulative penalty limits how many of those pile up, but that can still be brutal when a powerful character has a +4 Toughness and +4 to weapon damage.
    The overuse of blast might be an issue, but the innate -2 to casting and the mediocre damage should make it only useful for clearing out trash mooks on one side of a fight.

    Campaign 2 used Deluxe with the Beasts & Barbarians setting. The Enlightened Monk loaded up on Edges and Powers to increase both attacks per turn and damage per attack, and by Heroic level the party felt that if they could hold the line for the 3-4 turns it took him to power up, he could deal with whatever they were facing. (They were right, except for once.) The power that broke the camel's back here was Speed, by doubling the number of attacks. The player concerned resolved this unprompted by voluntarily retiring the PC and starting a new one.
    ... Yeah, that's why the quickness power was cut and turned into a (much weaker) modifier for sloth/speed.
    Also, most combats only last 3-4 rounds. If the other characters in the party could fight then the combats should have generally been over by the time the Monk was ready to fight.

    Campaign 3
    I don't think I need to comment on this one.

    Campaign 4 is ongoing, again using vanilla SWADE. ...There were NPC opponents with the Puppet power, and the group was talked into fleeing the area of space they inhabited by the second player since "Puppet is so overpowered there is nothing we can do against it" (that despite the party having thoroughly defeated said NPCs once in combat).
    Damn, that is one impressive Persuasion (deception) result! Tricking murderous adventurers into thinking that puppet could work further than 72 yards (d12 Smarts with the triple Range modifier) away is an amazing exploitation of ignorance. Kudos to those NPCs.

    Leave a comment:

  • PEGClint
    Admin/Savage Worlds Brand Manager

  • PEGClint
    replied
    Originally posted by Sablemage View Post
    ...by the second player since "Puppet is so overpowered there is nothing we can do against it"
    Not trying to call this person specifically out, but it sounds a lot like someone who once tried to say that a Puppeted character should do anything as long as it doesn't physically harm themselves or allies.

    I pointed out that the power says nothing about physical, and that it's limited by anything that could be defined as "direct harm," no matter the type of harm.

    And of course as Radecliffe pointed out, the power is very specific that the controller does not get to dictate how the command is carried out.

    I have to admit I think it's kind of funny the players were convinced to leave "the area of space" they were in because of a power with most likely a maximum 60-72 yard range. And if it's a futuristic game, it would also be a power that could be "defeated" with a smoke grenade or heck, possibly even a good Stealth roll (a character has to be able to see their target to affect it with a power).

    Leave a comment:

  • Radecliffe
    Registered Member

  • Radecliffe
    replied
    Well, at the very least in SWADE Speed as been retooled so it's not really broken especially given the action economy in SWADE. It's certainly possible to get to the point where a character can perform three action without MAP but it's still a three action limit and most players can get to the point where they can do 2 actions without MAP so there is less of a monopoly on having the most actions.

    I'm not a huge fan of puppet myself even when used by the PC's. If allowed to its ultimate extreme it can make it so the puppeteer is the only one in the party that matters. Not much fun for everyone else. Having said that, however, there are counters to deal with it. Set guidelines as to what kinds of creatures can be puppetted and those that can't. It is a resisted power so it's not a gimme and it's not like the targets can just turn and slaughter teammates. At the least that's another check to resist the power. Also, the puppeteer doesn't get to give detailed instructions to their puppet. So whether NPC or PC there is a certain amount of wiggle room in following instructions.

    Me: Kill them!
    Me: Wait, what are you doing?
    Puppet: Killing them with kindness, master.
    Me: But that takes so loooooong!

    Leave a comment:

  • Sablemage
    Registered Member

  • Sablemage
    replied
    Thanks everyone - so, more information and reflections...

    In all cases, the NPCs can access the same ABs and powers as the PCs. Maybe I'm just not as good at using them, maybe I need to read the power descriptions more carefully and be harsher in what I allow the PCs to do.

    Three of the campaigns were sword & sorcery. The fourth is SF.

    Campaign 1 used core Deluxe powers with the No Power Points setting rule (all others used Power Points). There were two spellcasters, the one with AB: Miracles didn't cause too many problems (Boost/Lower Trait was available but used sparingly) but the one with AB: Magic was overfond of Blast. However, the players concerned controlled themselves in the interests of the story. This was the least badly broken campaign.

    Campaign 2 used Deluxe with the Beasts & Barbarians setting. The Enlightened Monk loaded up on Edges and Powers to increase both attacks per turn and damage per attack, and by Heroic level the party felt that if they could hold the line for the 3-4 turns it took him to power up, he could deal with whatever they were facing. (They were right, except for once.) The power that broke the camel's back here was Speed, by doubling the number of attacks. The player concerned resolved this unprompted by voluntarily retiring the PC and starting a new one.

    Campaign 3 used vanilla SWADE as an experiment. Here someone with AB Magic did a lot of damage with Beast Friend, spying using the Mind Rider power and controlling various animals to attack on his behalf. (One thing I definitely did wrong here was allowing him to control multiple animals by controlling the herd/pack leader; he may be correct that horses follow the herd leader (he rides horses, I don't) but in game terms he should be charged 2-3 power per horse.) This was not helped by the party being mostly evil characters, with the AB Magic guy being the most out-and-out evil of all; that is not something I will allow again. The other players said they felt they were just along for the ride, watching the spellcaster solve all the encounters.

    Campaign 4 is ongoing, again using vanilla SWADE. Here we have one psionic PC who has not done anything game-breaking, but is constantly being told by another player that powers must be nerfed because they are grossly overpowered (second player being the one with the AB Magic PC in campaign 3). A third player wants to try out AB Weird Science and is getting the same story. There were NPC opponents with the Puppet power, and the group was talked into fleeing the area of space they inhabited by the second player since "Puppet is so overpowered there is nothing we can do against it" (that despite the party having thoroughly defeated said NPCs once in combat).

    Re-reading those paragraphs, it seems like the problem is one specific player. That suggests the answer is a conversation with him rather than reworking the rules.

    Leave a comment:

  • Oneiros
    Registered Member

  • Oneiros
    replied
    Originally posted by Joe Brown View Post
    Tweak the Benny=5 PP rule. Limit it (possibly to zero), and see what happens. Seems the least drastic option.
    One iteration of the Savage Pathfinder rules had a version where a Bennie = 1d4 extra Power Points (or was it 1d4+1?). They eventually rolled that back, but I thought the impacts were interesting.

    Leave a comment:

  • ZenFox42
    Registered Member

  • ZenFox42
    replied
    Originally posted by Sablemage View Post
    [c] ...and restricting the New Powers Edge to one power, which may only be taken once per Rank. Fast, easy, probably gets the job done, but risks throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
    One Power per Edge, and only once per Rank seems excessive. Try one Power per Edge only. Keep in mind, then if they're taking multiple Powers per Rank, they are not improving their Traits, taking other Edges that might be useful, etc.

    Leave a comment:

  • Joe Brown
    Registered Member

  • Joe Brown
    replied
    Tweak the Benny=5 PP rule. Limit it (possibly to zero), and see what happens. Seems the least drastic option.

    Leave a comment:

  • mikeawmids
    Registered Member

  • mikeawmids
    replied
    How exactly are they using Powers to 'break the game'? More intel required.

    I mean, sure, I've had power-users ace on their spellcasting/damage rolls to one-shot a villain, or perhaps bypass an elaborate trap/set peice because I forgot they had Intangibility, but I would not describe that as game-breaking. Moderately annoying at worst, but usually - brutally honest smackdown incoming - it was my fault for not designing/adapting the scenario to present an appropriate challenge.

    There's a reason most high level dungeons in D&D or Pathfinder have some (usually bullshit) reason that players can't use Teleport or Dimension Door to just warp to the last room, or leave at a moments notice for a lovely long rest. I guess what I'm saying is, you might need to wield the in-game narrative as a club to nerf troublesome players.

    Saying that... I did throw my group into an arena fight once, with a nullifying aura that prevented powers or magic items being used. The power user did not respond well, felt personally attacked, etc... You would think grown men would behave better, but I am often suprised.
    mikeawmids
    Registered Member
    Last edited by mikeawmids; 10-12-2021, 09:16 AM.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X