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  • Green Martian (Adamant Mars)

    Ok, one thing that is bugging me is how the Green Martians have Size +3 and are denoted as Large +2 to hit. The only reason why it’s bothering me is that I was trying to figure out their Racial Traits cost. According to SWD creatures that are +3 Size aren’t considered Large for mechanics purposes. So I’ve come to the conclusion that either Large for the alien is a retrapping of -1 Parry as mathematically it should work out the same or it’s a custom Hinderance-minor or major? Because it’s hindering them separate of Size. So does anyone know?

    Thanks in Advance.


  • #2
    I don't have the book so I can't answer specifically, but generally, Size and Scale should be tracked as separate abilities when applied to a playable character. Also worth noting this sentence from the Size Table:
    Mass is usually enough to determine its Size and Toughness bonus, but account for overall dimensions as makes sense.
    Basically what that means is creatures can have whatever Size and Scale they need to. The relationship between the two is just a "common sense" guideline when creating most creatures. An good example where Size and Scale diverge would be an floating alien "gas bag." The bloated creature might be Large, because it's easy to hit, but have a much lower Size because it needs to have a low mass in order to float. A lower Size of course mean lower Toughness, which would make sense if the creatures are known to violently explode from a single shot.

    As for the value of Large Scale, I would break it down in the following way:
    • (+2) Additional Wound
    • (+1) Reach 1 (optional)
    • (-4) -2 penalty to attack Normal Scale
    • (-4) Normal Scale receives +2 bonus hit
    Tentatively, this is about a -5 or -6 racial ability if plucked straight from SWADE, or a -8 ability if using the Deluxe rules.

    Hope this helps!

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    • #3
      Thanks Deskeption! Do you off hand know where Scale is in Deluxe? Iirc it in vehicles cause you reminded of reading something about scale and Blimps.

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      • Deskepticon
        Deskepticon commented
        Editing a comment
        Page 155

    • #4
      A follow up of sorts. First without listing all their Racial Traits, Green Martians are roughly Ogres in size and Strength. Also when I reread the chapter on creating new Races in A:Mars, it said that they were the rules from the Sci-fi Companion. I wonder if it was from an older rule set because it lists Size +1 per +1 point and Toughness +1 per +1 point. However my copy of Sci-Fi Companion lists Size and Toughness together for +1 per +3 points. I’m thinking that they also gave them Large so as to make them a little easier to hit and kill. Red Martians are the main Race. And using -4 for Large gets me a total of +3 Racial total.

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      • #5
        Originally posted by Ninja-Bear View Post
        I wonder if it was from an older rule set because it lists Size +1 per +1 point and Toughness +1 per +1 point. However my copy of Sci-Fi Companion lists Size and Toughness together for +1 per +3 points.
        You're reading the entry wrong.
        SciFi Companion list it as "Size +1 (3)", meaning the ability can be taken up to three times. Under the "Value" column it says 1.

        I’m thinking that they also gave them Large so as to make them a little easier to hit and kill. Red Martians are the main Race. And using -4 for Large gets me a total of +3 Racial total.
        Are Green Martians a playable race, or are they listed as enemies? Because enemy stats in Savage Worlds don't always need to follow the same build rules.
        Last edited by Deskepticon; 09-22-2021, 03:07 PM. Reason: Formatting

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        • #6
          Mars is pretty old (over a decade old), so it uses a lot of old values, including some of the Sci-Fi Toolkit rules (originally written by Wiggy and darn difficult to find for sale now, not to be confused with the more modern Companion), and applies them inconsistently.
          If you look at the NPC Green Men, you'll see that they are only Size +2 in their Toughness, so the rules are clearly not applied consistently.

          The Red Men are a +3 race (+4 by Adventure Edition rules), despite the Other Races section saying that all races should be +2 races. So as long as the other races work out to about +3, they should be pretty balanced.
          I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

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          • #7
            Okay, because I'm a bit compulsive, I found the book on a "free-to-read" website just to look up the stats.

            Green Martians get the following:
            (+3) d6 Strength, max d12+3
            (+2) d6 Vigor
            (+3) Size +3
            (+1) Natural Weapons
            (+2) Natural Armor +2
            (-4) Large (but only AGAINST attacks, not FOR them)
            (-3) Hampered Smarts
            (-2) Bloodthirsty
            Total +2

            There's also the free d6 Survival, but it looks like everyone gets that so I'm not factoring it in.

            The one part of the Green Men's description that's dubious is "+3 to Size and to Toughness." Size already adds to Toughness, so the "and" part is confusing. I think it's just meant to reiterate what Size does, and not be a separate ability. Otherwise, the lowest a Green's Toughness would be is 13(2), before increasing Vigor, and that doesn't seem right.

            __________

            Just for completeness, this is probably how I'd bring the race into SWADE:

            (+4) d8 Strength, max d12+6
            (+2) d6 Vigor, max d12+1
            (+4) Size +4
            (+1) Natural Armor +2
            (+2) Claws, Str+d4, +2 climbing
            (+1) Tusks, Str+d4, +4 damage after a 5" Run
            (-2) Big
            (-2) Bloodthirsty
            (-3) -2 to Smarts rolls
            (-5) Large Scale (+1 Wound; Reach 1; +2 Scale modifier)
            Total +2

            ___________

            Version 2
            After actually reading the description, Green Men are noted as being about seven to eight feet tall. Here's an arguably better representation, based on that given information. (Note that the different versions use different ability values)

            Original, redux
            (+3) d6 Strength, max d12+3
            (+2) d6 Vigor, max d12+1
            (+2) Size +2
            (+2) Natural Armor +2
            (+1) Claws/Tusks, Str+1 (or Str+d4)
            (-2) Big (can't use common clothing or gear)
            (-2) Bloodthirsty
            (-3) Hampered Smarts attribute
            Total +3

            Adventure Edition
            (+2) d6 Strength, max d12+3
            (+2) d6 Vigor, max d12+1
            (+2) Size +2
            (+1) Natural Armor +2
            (+2) Claws, Str+d4, +2 climbing
            (+1) Tusks, Str+d4, +4 damage after a 5" Run
            (-2) Big (can't use common clothing or gear)
            (-2) Bloodthirsty
            (-3) -2 to Smarts rolls
            Total +3
            Last edited by Deskepticon; 09-23-2021, 07:59 PM.

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            • Deskepticon
              Deskepticon commented
              Editing a comment
              Radecliffe Correct. Initially I had them at +3, just like the original writeup, but that valued them at only +1 total. So, I bumped up Size since they already were Large Scale anyway.

            • paladin2019
              paladin2019 commented
              Editing a comment
              How is Large an additional penalty to the already Large Scale the +4 Size imposes? I'm not sure they should be any more than Size 2 (which is ogre sized) to begin with.

            • Deskepticon
              Deskepticon commented
              Editing a comment
              paladin2019 I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking why I listed Size and Scale separately?

          • #8
            Radecliffe there is the rub. They’re listed as +3 Size and listed as Large with the +2 to be hit. Hence my questioning.

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            • #9
              Ok, I just re read their Racial Traits-again and for those whom exact wording matter, it says they are considered Large targets. So I take that that they are Large by mechanics and not due to Size (per se).

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              • #10
                Originally posted by Ninja-Bear View Post
                Radecliffe there is the rub. They’re listed as +3 Size and listed as Large with the +2 to be hit. Hence my questioning.
                As I recall size and scale got a bit of a refurb between SWD and SWADE so making them Normal sized as opposed to Large shouldn't be a big deal.

                Deskepticon I would go with +1 Toughness rather than making them Large. That's my two cents anyway.

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                • Deskepticon
                  Deskepticon commented
                  Editing a comment
                  They already had Large from the original setting. I just tried keeping as "true" as possible. I would agree the race probably doesn't need Large, but then you'll need to finagle the ability list to bring them down to +2 or +3.

              • #11
                Well I could ditch Large and say “Bulky” -2 Parry. Net effect should be the same.

                I don’t mind that they used Large in Racial Traits. I wish that if it was supposed to be a negative trait hence negative points then they would’ve said something like even though they aren’t Large by Size we’re still giving it to them as a Negative Trait worth X points. I’m fine with giving a creature a penalty separate from its implied benefits.

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                • Deskepticon
                  Deskepticon commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Well I could ditch Large and say “Bulky” -2 Parry. Net effect should be the same.
                  -2 Parry would not be the same. Parry is only challenged by Fighting rolls, whereas the Scale modifier for Large applies to all attacks (Fighting, Shooting, throwing, and direct-attack powers).

                  A -2 to Parry is worth -2 points, while "+2 to all attacks" is -4 (a value I feel comfortable with due to diminishing returns).

                  I wish that if it was supposed to be a negative trait hence negative points then they would’ve said something like even though they aren’t Large by Size we’re still giving it to them as a Negative Trait worth X points.
                  But.... that's exactly what Adamant did.
                  They said the race is considered to be Large, and listed the penalty. They didn't provide a point value because most settings never do. But the wording is clear it's intended to be a negative ability. It could have been more clear on how much of the Large ability is supposed to apply, but it's probably safe to assume it's only what's written.

                  I’m fine with giving a creature a penalty separate from its implied benefits.
                  The Large ability in Deluxe didn't have any "implied" benefits (those started in SWADE); it was all negatives. Small/Large/Huge were never intended to be playable abilities. The penalties for being Large or Huge (which translate as bonuses for Normal characters) are to help score raises for bonus damage; really the only way to beat the creature's higher Toughness. And of course for the verisimilatude of bigger things being easier to hit.

              • #12
                Btw, this has been really helpful discussion. Thanks for everyone’s input.

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                • #13
                  Ok, thanks again I got it. I missed that the Parry only affects Fighting rolls. And I got the implied part Deskeption when you listed other traits for Large up-post.

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                  • Deskepticon
                    Deskepticon commented
                    Editing a comment
                    That's my bad. I probably should have stuck to discussing only the Deluxe ruleset. I think I just assumed you were going to update the setting to SWADE.

                    But just to clarify, Large for the Deluxe rules only applied the +2/-2 modifiers to attack rolls. Adventure Edition added the additional Wound and optional Reach bonuses. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

                • #14
                  Added an update to this post.

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                  • #15
                    Fwiw, I’m keeping with Deluxe Explorer’s edition.

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