What's the point in Pushing?

[ZenFox42]

So, I've been thinking about doing TV-show fist-fights in SWADE (maybe I'll make a fuller post on that later), and one common tactic when 1 hero is up against 4-6 mooks is to spend the first round or two to push them back and possibly knock them down. Unfortunately, getting up and moving back to melee range doesn’t impose a time penalty in SW (max push distance is 2”, plus 2” for getting up, well under the 6” per round limit). So why bother Pushing? What if, on a Raise, they fall down and become Shaken? That way, even if they get back to the hero, there's at least a chance they won't be able to attack in the same round.

In addition, since Pushing is an Opposed roll, depending on the circumstances, the chances of the hero succeeding against even one opponent are often lower compared to, say, just punching them. So, what's the point? And add in the MAP for pushing more than one mook per round, and the chances are even lower. I don't know what to do about this.

[ValhallaGH]

When my character needed to defeat the kung-fu psychic warrior on my airplane, shoving him through the hole in the fuselage that his psychic powers had created was vastly easier than trying to hit his Parry (about 9, plus or minus because of deflection).

In TV and cinema, pushing establishes a character's power while maintaining motion and minimizing a need to fake combat skill. It also allows the initial action to establish the visual space the fight will be in. In TTRPG, none of that is needed. You Push either to use environmental factors (like the airplane damage in my anecdote), to slow the foes by forcing them to spend Pace standing back up, or to force a foe out of / into a specific position for fleeting tactical advantages.

The other reason a TV hero might shove folks around is to escape a pile of foes. Escaping a grapple. Shoving all the lesser foes away is just a matter of style, displaying the hero's overwhelming power.

[Doctor Crunch]

I'd treat that kind of shove in the flow of combat to buy time or get an advantage as a Fighting or Athletics test rather than a shove.

[SteelDraco]

If the hero is all alone, not very much, as you said. The enemy will often go again before the hero can, stand up, and re-engage. If the hero has allies, or is doing a multi-action, then it can make more of a difference because people who are prone have a penalty to their Parry. So if you have friends around, knocking someone to the ground and having your friends stomp them while they're down is a viable (though dishonorable) tactic.

Remember that in SW, there's no guarantee that you won't go before your opponent gets a chance to go again - in a one-on-one fight if there's no iniitative-modifying Edges or Hindrances in play it's 50/50 that either of you will go first in the next round. If you're lucky you can push at the end of a round and then stomp them before they have a chance to get up again.

That said, more fights SHOULD have interesting stuff to push people into or off of - cliff ledges, rickety bridges, into gears, off planes, toward lava or fire, etc.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well you are pushing against Mooks? Since mooks work a little different from Wild Cards, I don’t see a problem with them wasting a full action just to get up. Only elite mooks like say ninjas might be able to make a DEX (or appropriate sill) roll to stand up and re engage. Normal thugs? Nah, they go down and stay down for at least an action.

[ValhallaGH]

That's not how standing up works. Standing uses 2 Pace. That's it.
Even a bunch of Extra thugs can stand back up, walk the 1 or 2 Pace to get in your hero's face, and use an Action to stab your hero.

[amerigoV]

Its not used often, but sometimes you need to create space for others in tight quarters. Its also useful for nearby cliffs and pits. I use Push as "create movement" - so push, pull, slide, etc.

IMO its one of those rules to help cover limited situations, but if you do not have it people will be on the forums/facebook/discord asking how one should do it.

[Ninja-Bear]

ValhallaGH, I did say that the GM could rule that the effect of Pushing is different against mooks than Wild Cards. I never said that it was RAW. And I don’t have a problem with it either since other rules specifically work differently if the the opponent is a mook or a Wild Card.

[Radecliffe]

When mentioning a house rule it's just a good idea to say it's a house rule just to avoid confusion. Just sayin.

[Deskepticon]

If a player really wants to grab a target and plow him halfway across the room, just let them do it. Bend the Push rules slightly to allow movement up to the character's Pace (plus Run die on a raise), but then the target doesn't need to check for falling Prone.

[Corax]

Pushing someone is very useful if the hero has the First Strike Edge, or if she wants to flee from combat without Extraction and wants to avoid a free attack.

"What if, on a Raise, they fall down and become Shaken?"
Than it's basically a Test, right? I have been thinking that the Push mechanic could easily completely handled by Test mechanics, but the extra mechanic has its merrits. I would simply ask the player "What do you want to achieve by pushing?". If the answer is "Hinder him" it is a Test. If the answer is "Push him down the cliff" it is a Push.

"If a player really wants to grab a target and plow him halfway across the room, just let them do it."
I think I'd handle this with Grappling and simple movement, but it's almost the same as "Push".

[Deskepticon]

"If a player really wants to grab a target and plow him halfway across the room, just let them do it."
I think I'd handle this with Grappling and simple movement, but it's almost the same as "Push".

Yeah, in hindsight, I realize I misunderstood the OP entirely. (That's what I get for posting when tired.) Grappling is probably the better option there. Interestingly enough, though, there's no rules on movement during a Grapple. Sure, the target cannot initiate movement (being either Entangled or Bound), but can they be dragged and shoved around? Is this a Push attempt during a Grapple?

Might be a good side conversion to have...

[Corax]

"Is this a Push attempt during a Grapple?"
Depends on how complex you like to handle it. But yes, why not. "Pushing" an entangled target gives -2 for resisting the Push, and Pushing a bound target would give the Pushing person additionally +2 on the attempt. Optionally also apply Difficult Ground to restrict movement. So, basically no extra rules required, it's all there to be combined. Even if you like to handle it RAW...

"Sure, the target cannot initiate movement"
When entangled (not Bound) we could discuss if the victim could still initiate a Push attempt, since this is not movement (but an Action with -2 due to Distracted). The Not-Really-RAW but logical side condition would be, that the entangled victim must "move" (or better change position) or knocked prone together with the grappling entitiy.

I can see both options as Fun and Furious, but if it's Fast depends on how organized you can think this through in the heat of the battle.

[Deskepticon]

Corax "No extra rules required" would also mean that Pushing during a Grapple suffers a MAP. And as ZenFox points out below, that is now two separate opposed rolls. Sure, it's rules-legal, but it not very Fast, nor does it sound Fun... and succeeding at one roll only to fail the next is sure to make a player Furious!

When entangled (not Bound) we could discuss if the victim could still initiate a Push attempt, since this is not movement (but an Action with -2 due to Distracted). The Not-Really-RAW but logical side condition would be, that the entangled victim must "move" (or better change position) or knocked prone together with the grappling entitiy.

Right, an Entangled character cannot move, but they aren't barred from taking any other action (albeit, at -2 for Distraction). Theoretically they can Push their captor, but unless they first succeed at breaking free, they are still Entangled at the end. Like you said, it's only logical that they must move as well.

I wonder if revamping the Grapple rules is needed...?
::thinking::

[mikeawmids]

IMO, Pushing is only real worth trying if you're pushing the target into/off something that will cause damage.

[Ninja-Bear]

Radecliffe I thought my suggestion as to being considered was obvious.

[Deskepticon]

I knew what you meant... you're all good.
::thumbs up::

[ZenFox42]

Thanks everyone for your input, but I don't see many suggestions to solve my main problem - how to keep Prone, Pushed characters from simply getting back up and getting back into melee with their opponent.

Someone said Pushing is used "to slow the foes by forcing them to spend Pace standing back up", but that only slows them down if they're heading to someone other than the one who Pushed them.

Doing a "Push/Pull" after a Grapple means two opposed rolls, so the chances of success are even lower (maybe the Push would have a better chance of success with the Grapple modifiers, but you still have to make the Grapple, and unless the Push's chances are 100%, the combined Opposed rolls will always be lower than a single Opposed roll).

Someone suggested "a Fighting or Athletics test rather than a shove" to make them spend their next round getting up and heading back to the Pusher (and not arriving until the next round). But (like Push), Opposed rolls are almost always harder to succeed at than a regular attack. However, that's no different than Push, so this is reasonable.

Someone said "Bend the Push rules slightly to allow movement up to the character's Pace (plus Run die on a raise), but then the target doesn't need to check for falling Prone". This is reasonable too.

Between the last two options, I suppose creating a special house move using a Test would be less of a problem than altering the basic Push mechanic.

But there's still that pesky Opposed roll...I almost want to make it a single "attack" roll against the target's Parry. On success, the opponent is moved their Pace+1 (and goes prone on a Raise, eating up another 2" of movement).

Thoughts? Too overpowered?

[Doctor Crunch]

I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I was suggesting simply doing a Fighting or Athletics test with the normal consequences (distracted or vulnerable on success, shaken on a raise) to represent the moment in a fight you were trying to model as a push.

I think what you're trying to model is pushing as a way to absolutely guarantee an opponent cannot reenter combat and that seems distinctly unfun for the person pushed.

[Deskepticon]

Someone said "Bend the Push rules slightly to allow movement up to the character's Pace (plus Run die on a raise), but then the target doesn't need to check for falling Prone". This is reasonable too.

Hey, that someone was me!

To be fair, I misunderstood what you wanted to do. I thought you had wanted to shove someone further than the max 2", so I suggested the acting character move with the target too. But upon re-reading, I realized you had wanted to prevent the Pushed target from reengaging too quickly.

I suppose the easiest way to achieve that would be to spend a Benny to create a narrative/mechanical adjunct to the Push. For example, let's say you're fighting in a warehouse. Spend a Benny and inform the GM there's a pile of empty cardboard boxes nearby that you want to Push your foe into. If you succeed with a raise, you expect the boxes to cause the target to become Entangled for one round (no breaking free roll, it justs wastes a turn). A reasonable GM should probably agree to those terms.

[ZenFox42]

Doctor Crunch - I suppose a -2 to attacks and possibly Shaken is pretty good. It would lower the chances of the opponent landing a blow on the next round or two. And since the opposed roll would be Fighting (probably high) vs. Agility (possibly low), it might have a fair chance of succeeding.

Deskepticon - for a single opponent, spending a Benny is reasonable. But in TV fights, it's often 4-6 mooks against the hero, and the Bennies would run out too quickly.