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  • Race building negative

    Was there ever a negative trait for race building that was "Characteristic cannot advance after character creation"? I found one that limited it to a d6, but not what I am looking for...

  • #2
    That's the only one, AFAIK.

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    • #3
      Officially? Not that I know of.

      But you are free to create whatever Racial Abilities you think you need. A negative ability that "freezes" a Trait after CharGen is probably worth -2 per attribute, or -1 per skill. Other factors may adjust value.

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      • #4
        Thank you, will stop searching

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        • #5
          Originally posted by JmOz01 View Post
          Was there ever a negative trait for race building that was "Characteristic cannot advance after character creation"? I found one that limited it to a d6, but not what I am looking for...
          No, but there were two that had that as part of their mechanics.
          Between publishing cycles, a "cannot increase with Advances" ability was printed. It was discontinued for unspecified reasons. Based upon my own experiences, it encouraged min-max builds, discouraged character growth, and codified horrible racist stereotypes into the rules; all reasons to cut it.
          The other was the Elderly hindrance. In previous editions, a character that was Elderly had their Pace reduced, Strength and Vigor reduced by one die type (minimum d4), and could never increase those Attributes with Advances. Changing that was one of the many improvements of Adventure Edition.
          I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

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          • #6
            There was in the older editions of the game. But there is not one in SWADE.

            The previous version had three options.
            -3 One attribute can never advance beyond a d6, even during play.
            -3 One attribute requires two points per step to raise during character generation and the character must dedicate two leveling opportunities to raising the attribute during game play
            -2 One attribute requires two points per step to raise during character generation.


            These same restrictions are handled better in SWADE with the following abilities.
            −2 Attribute Penalty: One attribute (but not its linked skills) suffers a –1 penalty.
            −3 Attribute Penalty: One attribute (but not its linked skills) suffers a –2 penalty.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
              No, but there were two that had that as part of their mechanics.
              Between publishing cycles, a "cannot increase with Advances" ability was printed. It was discontinued for unspecified reasons. Based upon my own experiences, it encouraged min-max builds, discouraged character growth, and codified horrible racist stereotypes into the rules; all reasons to cut it.
              The other was the Elderly hindrance. In previous editions, a character that was Elderly had their Pace reduced, Strength and Vigor reduced by one die type (minimum d4), and could never increase those Attributes with Advances. Changing that was one of the many improvements of Adventure Edition.
              I can defiantly see how it could cause problems with character growth and min/maxing, and DON'T want to know about the racist stereotypes. My intent was for robots who cannot exceed their physical design (feeling a little need to explain why I was looking)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Ndreare View Post
                There was in the older editions of the game. But there is not one in SWADE.

                The previous version had three options.
                -3 One attribute can never advance beyond a d6, even during play.
                -3 One attribute requires two points per step to raise during character generation and the character must dedicate two leveling opportunities to raising the attribute during game play
                -2 One attribute requires two points per step to raise during character generation.


                These same restrictions are handled better in SWADE with the following abilities.
                −2 Attribute Penalty: One attribute (but not its linked skills) suffers a –1 penalty.
                −3 Attribute Penalty: One attribute (but not its linked skills) suffers a –2 penalty.
                So, want it to allow over d6
                the other two do allow for it to expand....

                The SWAE versions again do not prevent them from becoming stronger or what have you...just weakening them in general...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JmOz01 View Post
                  My intent was for robots who cannot exceed their physical design
                  How is that different from the default d12 limit?
                  Human characters cannot exceed their physical design, but their current status may be sub-optimal. Extensive effort and resources can improve performance up to the limits of the design.
                  Unless you want to set those limits lower than d12, in which case the robot is explicitly less capable than a human, there is no need for that change.

                  On a separate note, if a creature is allowed to reach d8 in all Attributes then further limits are at most a -1 racial ability. This is because d8+ is the requirement for all associated Edges (ignoring Jack-Of-All Trades).
                  I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
                    How is that different from the default d12 limit?
                    Human characters cannot exceed their physical design, but their current status may be sub-optimal. Extensive effort and resources can improve performance up to the limits of the design.
                    Unless you want to set those limits lower than d12, in which case the robot is explicitly less capable than a human, there is no need for that change.

                    On a separate note, if a creature is allowed to reach d8 in all Attributes then further limits are at most a -1 racial ability. This is because d8+ is the requirement for all associated Edges (ignoring Jack-Of-All Trades).
                    The idea was that not all robots were the same (So at character creation the player chooses the physical aspects), after character creation though the robot would not be able to change it's physical abilities, but could improve skills and such via programing.

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                    • #11
                      So all robots are either physically or mentally inferior to organics. That is going to discourage folks from playing robotic characters and limit stories involving robots.
                      I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In Savage Rifts Empires of Humanity there is an option to lock in physical attributes post character creation for intelligent constructs. Of course Savage Rifts is something of a different animal from the core rules.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JmOz01 View Post

                          The idea was that not all robots were the same (So at character creation the player chooses the physical aspects), after character creation though the robot would not be able to change it's physical abilities, but could improve skills and such via programing.
                          So once the character is built:

                          ... it cannot improve Strength with better hydrolics /higher tensile myomer fibers?

                          ... it cannot improve Agility with better joints /frictionless materials /rapid response chips?

                          ... it cannot improve Smarts with faster processor units /more RAM /better AI?

                          ... it cannot improve Spirit with a boosted empathy chip, or anti-magic coating (in settings that use magic, natch)?

                          ... it cannot improve Vigor with reinforced materials /armor plating /redundant circuitry (to bypass damaged parts)?
                          ____

                          If so, that's fine. If this is the setting you're creating, then there's probably some in-game reason why robots are locked-in like that. I'm just letting you know that this is the impression the proposal gives off.

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                          • #14
                            A) I did say physical, so talking just Agility, Strength, Vigor (Slightly Pedantic). Important distinction to me due to skills (i know agility can be viewed as most important)
                            B) I do get your point, however at the same time I can defiantly see the other argument: Humans just need to exercise, but a robots need to be rebuilt/upgraded...
                            C) Characters do get the rather large advantages of Construct

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JmOz01 View Post
                              A) I did say physical, so talking just Agility, Strength, Vigor (Slightly Pedantic). Important distinction to me due to skills (i know agility can be viewed as most important)
                              B) I do get your point, however at the same time I can defiantly see the other argument: Humans just need to exercise, but a robots need to be rebuilt/upgraded...
                              C) Characters do get the rather large advantages of Construct
                              For point B, though, you're presenting a path for improving a robotic character's physical attributes. Sci-fi stories often have robotic or AI entities performing redesigns on themselves. Sometimes it's just a matter of moving the positronic brain into a newer model body.

                              You can detail your setting to rationalize why these things aren't a possibility, but I don't think I'd willingly choose to place a robot with the limitations you describe. If I wanted to play a physically oriented 'bot, I'd need to min/max physical Attributes on creation, but thereafter, I can only improve associated skills by essentially paying double when they exceed my Attribute. I'll never increase my damage in melee because my STR is stuck. I'm probably shut out of many higher rank Edges because I can't improve to meet the prereqs, and to make sure I can get at least some of the ones I want requires extra planning at character creation.

                              I realize Construct is a pretty big Racial Modifier that needs lots to offset it, but this isn't the way I'd go. The example Android race is pretty well done (though the Pacifist Hindrance would rule out a combat model, at least until it was bought off. You can tell when that happens because their eyes glow red).

                              Another option - completely off the top of my head - is to delay/skip Advancements. Each level would be a -2 modifier to Race.

                              For instance, a robot with two levels of Delayed Advancement would be treated as requiring two Advances to even be considered Novice Rank, and gains no benefit from those two Advances. This will means they'll always be behind in Rank compared to the rest of the party by a couple of advances. Or, Advances apply to Rank as normal, but their first two Novice advances provide no benefit. No Attribute/Skill improvements, no Edges and no buying off Hindrances.

                              This would emulate the trope of android/robot characters who initially seem very machine-like, but then new experiences let them start to discover new abilities and become more "human" and relatable over time.

                              So, a robot (Construct, +8) with Dependency (Power Source) [Major] and Delayed Advancement (2) [Major] would be -6, for a net +2 racial bonus as normal.

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