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  • Defensive Magic

    Hi,

    we are playing a Deadlands Game and i have 4 Spellcaster (5Player).
    We are noticing that you can realy bolster your defense very good with magic.
    Just using Deflect + Shroud and you get -5 to attack for the whole Party with one spell.
    Stack that with something like Invisibility and/or Protection it gets realy hard for Badys to hit them.
    I can always bring bigger Guns but it kinda gets realy silly realy soon when I bring Monster with like dice + 7 to hit.
    Also it cost a lot of PP but with 8 you get the whole group for 55 rounds protected.

    Did someone else encounter that problem? Did you solved it somehow or have tips to do so?
    Is it only a problem with higher levels perhaps? We play Hero Grade.

    Greetings from locked-down-Germany,
    kyan

  • #2
    AoE attacks, Suppressive Fire, and Tests don't worry about deflection.

    Comment


    • NoJuice
      NoJuice commented
      Editing a comment
      Tests are a good idea for applying vulnerable to foes and even shaken to foes. Deflection probably does apply to shooting and fighting tests and always applies to suppressive fire.

    • Deskepticon
      Deskepticon commented
      Editing a comment
      NoJuice Shooting and Fighting can also be used to Support. If the target is under a "blur" or "displacement" Trapping, attacks can Support by showing an ally where the target isn't.

      **BWWAATT-TA-TAT-TAT** "Nope! He ain't there. Aim to the left!"

    • NoJuice
      NoJuice commented
      Editing a comment
      Deskepticon that is a 10/10 idea. I will have to remember that for the future. Its also worth mentioning that making opponents "waste" actions trying to negate your deflection bonus is part of why deflection is so great. A really good exploding roll that gives +2 to an ally's shooting might have instead hit the target if it was an attack instead of a test. Probably best used having a lot of mediocre opponents supporting an enemy who has a powerful weapon and good shooting.

  • #3
    Deflection is very strong in SWADE. I personally don't recommend just raising bad guys' bonus to hit a lot unless you are playing a super power or science fiction game. You can "counter" deflection with gang-up bonus and wild attack in melee. Area of effect (AOE) attacks like blast and dynamite ignore deflection and even invisibility if the bad guys can guess where the party is.

    Comment


    • #4
      Tactics are also a good thing to use.

      If the bad guys notice the defensive spells, then they should back-off and wait for the spell to expire.

      Scouting and ambushes are great. If the bad guys see that a certain spell caster always casts deflection at the start of combat, then they should set up an ambush to take out the spellcaster at the start of combat.

      Use the Support rules. Support doesn't worry about modifiers. Two guys bracket the target with gunfire only need a 4 to give a +1 each (+2 on a raise) to a third shooter.

      Comment


      • #5
        Grenades.
        Grenades solve all kinds of problems.
        Can't hit a person? Hit the area with a grenade.
        Need your bad guys to be able to hit the heroes but don't want to give the bad guys huge bonuses to attack, or massive penalty negation? Grenades.
        Need to hit a large group of foes? Grenades.
        Need to do a bunch of damage? Grenades deal good damage, and benefit from a Raise on the attack roll.
        Evasion allowing them to avoid grenade damage? Grenades come with a "cooking the grenade" rule.
        Bad guys aren't smart enough to reliably cook grenades? Grenade launchers usually have grenades explode upon either impact or within a couple yards of impact.
        I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

        Comment


        • gigacanuck
          gigacanuck commented
          Editing a comment
          Beat me to it. Much like alcohol, grenades are the cause of, and solution to, all modern problems.

        • Deskepticon
          Deskepticon commented
          Editing a comment
          gigacanuck +1

      • #6
        If we’re talking literal counters, the baddies could always have a caster on their side with Dispel. Let the heroes blow 8+ power points on all their defensive spells only to see the spell canceled with a measly 1 power point spell.

        Comment


        • #7
          Like others have said, there are a number of ways for foes to reliable strike at a target protected with a deflection+Shroud power. Gang-up, Wild Attack, Infravision, Vulnerable (via Tests or powers), Support, and Area-Effect attacks can quickly drop that -5 to 0.

          Another important thing to remember is that Savage Worlds puts a lot of faith in a GM's common sense... some bonuses, if too similar, simply might not stack. If deflection+Shroud+invisibility+darkness all share similar Trappings, common sense would dictate that the character shouldn't receive full bonuses from all of them. For instance, a deflection power that blurs the target is going to have very little effect (if any) if the character is standing within Pitch Darkness; the target can only become unseen so much.

          Comment


          • #8
            The 'Aim' action can grant a character a +2 bonus to hit, OR allow them to ignore up to 4 points of penalties. That means that if your baddy takes a turn to Aim they fire at -1, instead of -5. Simply applying the Marksman Edge can negate 2 points of penalties, allowing individual snipers to hit your characters relatively easily.

            Other than that, smart tactics can also be devastating to your players. Set the building they're in on fire. They'll have to avoid the flames, and make Vigor rolls to avoid Fatigue from smoke inhalation. Then you can have villains firing into the burning building when they get too close to the windows or doors. They can cast their spells, but they'll have to spend more time in the burning building to do so.

            Powers like Havoc, Confusion, and Stun are great for starting off an ambush. Cause all of those casters to become Distracted, Shaken or Stunned. This makes it much harder for them to cast their spells unless they're receiving massive bonusses somehow.

            Comment


            • #9
              I have this exact problem right now. There are two casters one of them have invisibility and the other deflect, they have totally different trappings and one is a sorceror the other a priest.
              So even if there is an NPC caster with dispel one of the dispels will be a -2. But often the NPC caster gets two max power bolts in the face as soon as they show themselves so it hardly matter.

              So far everyone is having fun, but to be honest it's trivializing combat, the players just haven't realized have bad it is yet. At least I am no longer afraid to use to many or too good monsters

              Last game they both got a raise and the monster had -10 to hit. At least they often fight a bunch of creatures that don't use sight. When the tank have high parry, I think the lowest have 9, the Extras they fight have maybe a d6 or d8 in Fighting an need a 19! to hit. The gang up bonus quickly drops with First Strike, Counter Strike and Block.

              I guess need to add more Extras and more use of support (+1 or +2), test (maybe +2, with vulnerable) and wild attack (+2). That can give +5/+6 on attacks, still not quite enough to remove all penalties, but enough that combat isn't trivialized ...

              Comment


              • #10
                Introduce your players to the joys of high ROF guns. Yes, high ROF does not cancel out their magic penalties, but more attacks is more attacks, and sooner or later those extras will start to get lucky.....

                Comment


                • #11
                  Swarms. Swarms hit automatically.
                  In the area of a swarm on its turn? Take damage. The damage of typical swarms are pretty low, but Acing helps tremendously and you can have special swarms that hit a lot harder.
                  I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    I have been thinking about adding an Accuracy power that works like Smite but instead of +2 damage it gives +1 to attack or cancels -2 of penalties. With a raise it would do +2 or cancel -4 worth of penalties.

                    Comment


                    • ValhallaGH
                      ValhallaGH commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Deadlands: Reloaded has the Aim power that is similar.
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