Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

WW2 aircraft with lots of guns

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • WW2 aircraft with lots of guns

    Some time ago Ron answered a question:
    https://www.pegforum.com/forum/savag...otal-dice-pool

    This fits existing rules. Probably also makes sense from playability point of view (rolling all those dice causes massive amount of damage). Unfortunately it fails to model the reality well, planes did shoot all of their guns...

    I started wondering why exactly did those planes have all those guns and found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_harmonisation
    It pointed me to the possible solution. We divide the guns into linked groups as usual. First group is used directly for shooting. The rest is set up to one of the convergence modes (on the ground, it can't be changed in flight). It can either provide its to hit bonus (pattern harmonisation) or damage bonus (point harmonisation).

    Example: Spitfire with 8 machine guns can be set up as follows:
    - pattern: rolls 3 dice (ROF 3) with +4 to hit, +4 to damage
    - point: rolls 3 dice (ROF 3) with +2 to hit, +8 to damage

    Optionally the bonus from additional set of guns may be limited to one of the ranges: short or medium. It is probably a good idea to disallow more than one attack in a round (to avoid problem with massive damage...).

    If those bonuses seem too high they may be reduced to +1/+2. This doesn't work well with planes equipped with different armament (like Bf109).

    Another solution I see is allowing pilots to shoot each set of guns on different actions but without MAP (like Two Fisted), this may show up to be too deadly, though (imagine hurricane with 12 guns...).

    EDIT: One more idea: we link up to four guns. Each extra pair gives one re-roll (for Spitfire this would give attack roll using 3 dice with +2 to hit, +4 damage and 2 re-rolls).

    What do you think?
    Last edited by zgreg; 02-14-2020, 07:01 PM.

  • #2
    I've been running it as two weapon sets you can fire with Multi-Actions. Or alternate between to stretch your ammo out over a long battle. This has worked well for me and mine.

    The weapon link rules already include Gun Harmonization. That's why sets provide bonuses to attack and damage. Adding another level of harmonization is a potent setting rule but an obnoxiously complex addition to the core rules for a very niche and corner case. From a simulation perspective, it also leaves some doubt about why anyone would have stopped using barrages of machine guns given how accurate and powerful this rule would make them.
    For your house rule ... I'll have to get back to you. Need to consider it further.
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

    Comment


    • #3
      Something I've sort of brainstormed on the subject is possibly having lots of extra guns increase the RoF, maybe every four additional linked weapons? Let's assume a RoF 3 main gun. So two guns are dual-linked obviously (3 shooting dice at +1/+2), four guns are quad-linked (3 shooting dice at +2/+4), but six guns is "dual-linked" plus four guns (4 shooting dice at +1/+2). Eight guns is "quad-linked" plus four guns (4 shooting dice at +2/+4, RoF 3 +1 for the extra set of guns), and 12 guns is "quad-linked" plus eight guns (5 shooting dice at +2/+4).

      This isn't perfect, especially since that 6-gun combination is more of a trade-off with quad-linked fire rather than a strict upgrade, but it's clean and your ammo consumption goes up since you're using more guns. I think it's a little bit better than just multi-action firing two sets of guns that theoretically should be on the same trigger mechanism (and is a little more manageable than "I fire all eight of my RoF 3 guns, that's 6 Shooting dice and two Wild Dice with the +2 cancelling out the MAP!")

      There's also an issue with RoF 4s increasing to RoF 6 for 10- or 12- gun fighters, which theoretically makes Rapid Fire not able to increase RoF any longer.
      Last edited by DoctorBoson; 02-14-2020, 11:47 PM.
      Join the Unofficial Savage Worlds Discord! Check out Expanded Wealth!

      My thoughts, musings, and general character adaptations on Savage Everything.

      Comment


      • #4
        Sorry for long silence.

        Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
        The weapon link rules already include Gun Harmonization. That's why sets provide bonuses to attack and damage. Adding another level of harmonization is a potent setting rule but an obnoxiously complex addition to the core rules for a very niche and corner case. From a simulation perspective, it also leaves some doubt about why anyone would have stopped using barrages of machine guns given how accurate and powerful this rule would make them.
        For your house rule ... I'll have to get back to you. Need to consider it further.
        From a simulation perspective I wonder why someone would put so many guns when it doesn't improve anything More ammo is irrelevant to me (especially that it's not the reason why it was done, it's not what I feel we should model). There are a lot of negative modifiers during dogfights (Unstable Platform, range, enemy Evasion), I think it leaves some space for additional to-hit bonus. I'm not sure why you find it "obnoxious", it's a simple extrapolation of linking weapons rules.
        I agree that's a corner case. But since I've been disappointed by the aircraft combat rules in WW2 that's a pet peeve of mine

        Originally posted by DoctorBoson View Post
        Something I've sort of brainstormed on the subject is possibly having lots of extra guns increase the RoF, maybe every four additional linked weapons? (...)
        That's another interesting idea, thanks! On the first glance I like mine better as I think static bonus has a lesser impact than an additional die.

        One potential issue I see when allowing to shoot every gun on-board on a single action is massive damage it delivers. This gets even more severe in SWADE, as it allows up to three attacks per round. If we allow shooting both sets of quad linked guns of the Spitfire on one action (almost RAW, with only "trigger shoots everything" modification), in one round we get 18 shooting dice (+3 wild dice), each with -4 to hit (+2 for linking, -2 for Unstable Platofrm, -4 MAP). Assuming a d8 skill pilot (an extra, for simplicity) If I'm not mistaken this should result with 1-4 hits. The same guns shot twice in a turn (12 dice, -2 to hit) should result with 3-6 hits. One attack in a round (6 dice, no to-hit mod) gives us 2-5 hits (with a strong peak for 4). Better than I thought but still massive amount of damage. This would get worse in a Hurricane (12 guns!).

        For comparison full RAW, again Spitfire and d8 extra, one set of quad-linked guns shot per action. Fired three times in a turn (9 dice, -4 to hit) should give 0-2 hits. Two times (6 dice, -2 to hit) should give 1-3 hits. Single shot (3 dice, no to-hit mod) results in 1-3 hits. In game terms I must admit it seems more reasonable. In simulation terms not so much (shooting on more than one action in a round looks like a waste of ammunition, hitting more than 3 times is not too probable).

        At the moment I think that the best way to solve that problem is to treat all guns on a WW2 airplane as a single weapon (not as a collection of linked guns).

        Comment


        • ValhallaGH
          ValhallaGH commented
          Editing a comment
          Statistically, a static bonus is vastly more powerful than an additional skill die.

        • DoctorBoson
          DoctorBoson commented
          Editing a comment
          I think you've misread the mechanics of the post. It's just "this Spitfire has eight guns, so it's "quad-linked" with a RoF up by +1 'cause of the extra weapons." Using the core rules Spitfire, that's RoF 4 with the quad-linked bonus. That brings the '×3 all guns in one round' scenario from 18 Shooting dice to 12 (plus 3 Wild Dice), and with a d8 Shooting Extra will result in about 0–1 hits on average (1.5 hit average if firing twice at a –2 MAP, and 2.5 hits on average with a single attack). The hurricane's 12 guns would be RoF 5 with the quad-linked bonus (3 hits with a single attack, 4 hits with a multi-action, 2 hits with 3 attack actions).

          But yeah, the idea is 100% that a Spitfire with 8 guns should be laying on the hurt way more than some dinky fighter with only 4 cannons. The biggest benefit you get out of these weapons is more hits, so more shooting dice allows for that possibility without going overboard—and the higher Rate of Fire burns way more ammunition so if you dump all of your hits into a single action you're pretty much launching half of your plane's ammo capacity. That's a pretty significant trade-off; you're actually far better off never doing more than 1 attack per round in a Spitfire until you get ahold of Steady Hands.

        • zgreg
          zgreg commented
          Editing a comment
          You're right, the bonus die has a lesser impact than a static mod. My mind took a bad shortcut

          Although my static mod gives options. I'd say that:
          +2 to hit mod gives most hits with regular damage
          +1 ROF increases hits with regular damage
          +4 damage doesn't increase hits, causes bigger damage
          I don't have the time now but I'll give it some more thought later.
      Working...
      X