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Wait, What? (RE: Power Points at Character Creation)

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  • Wait, What? (RE: Power Points at Character Creation)

    This post asks whether selecting Power Points as an Edge at character creation counts as its selection for Novice Rank. PEGClint responded in the affirmative and this has me confused. I was under the impression that character creation was separate from ranks for these purposes, just as you can raise attributes (via Hindrances, natch) during character creation and then once more with a Novice Advance.

  • #2
    The rules restricting extra attributes comes from the Advancement section. They are two separate rules.

    I think I did ask the same question 5 years ago, but from the other side. Now I see the rules limiting attributes to once per rank is listed under Advancement, while the rules restricting various edges is listed in the edge itself. The way Clint rules really makes sense based on how they are written.

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    • #3
      Character creation phase is all done as Novice rank. It has always been done this way. This matters for Edges and Powers.

      However, as noted above, the attribute limit is only for Advancements and does not happen during creation. Buying more attributes is done with points for Hindrances and not done with Advances.

      Comment


      • #4
        Previous editions of SW allowed Power Points as racial abilities, and those DID stack with the PP Edge. But with SWADE's overhaul and general beefing-up of powers, presumably the devs felt that characters didn't need excessively high amounts of PP anymore.

        But more to the point, at character creation, a player is creating a Novice character, with all the restrictions that implies. As SeeleyOne pointed out, this has always been the case. For example, in the DL:R Edge, Veteran o'the Weird West, it explicitly tells you build a character as normal (i.e., limited to Novice Rank) then add 20XP to bring him up to Seasoned, following gameplay rules at the point.
        The SWADE equivalent would be 4 progressive Advances, so the character would only qualify for one Seasoned Edge by the time the character is completed.

        If character creation was separate from Rank, then no Edge can be selected during the process since they all list a Rank requirement. Thankfully, that isn't the case.

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        • JamGame
          JamGame commented
          Editing a comment
          Deskepticon so now we're "doing it wrong"? yea, sure, whatever you say (geez, I mean really?)

        • Deskepticon
          Deskepticon commented
          Editing a comment
          JamGame So you're telling me your group was so unbelievably lucky at rolling, that a 1 on Spellcasting occurred only couple of times over years of gaming? Because that's how Backlash is triggered, on a roll of 1, not a failure. Instead of getting sore, maybe explain how you've been playing it.

        • SavageErica
          SavageErica commented
          Editing a comment
          Let's all try to remember to keep it friendly, folks...

      • #5
        Let's all try to remember to keep it friendly, folks...
        'But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: 'we're all mad here.'

        The Order of the Dice... OF DOOM!

        Comment


        • #6
          I too think this is a very confusing distinction, and even after reading the explanations here, and even Clint's answer from way back when :

          Originally posted by Clint
          Attribute increases are only limited to once per Rank under the section on using advances from experience, so there's nothing limiting increasing them from Hindrance points too. Note however that is specific to Attributes; some Edges (like Power Points) state they can only be taken once per Rank and it does not matter how they are taken; the limitation is still once per Rank.
          I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the distinction. It's like you have to know what's not being said in order to get it.
          Savage Summaries-RAW, with added info from Clint:Combat Actions,Cover,Healing,Using Powers,Grappling,Chases
          Also:Persuasion,Better Bosses,Better Combat Rating
          And:historical tech levels,generic SW sci-fi tech levels

          Comment


          • #7
            Also, like Attributes, Edges are only acquired at character creation through Hindrances*. When the opportunity cost of Power Points at chargen is an Attribute point, I'm okay with taking it again with a Novice Advance. Thus, my confusion.

            In SR, the number of IFs that give it out at chargen coupled with the gonzo, over the top feel of the setting amplifies my view.

            But, this is the rules' intent. It doesn't break stuff one way or the other.


            *I know humans get one Edge for free, but they can't get Power Points with this option because they need AB first.

            Comment


            • #8
              A summary paragraph describing what you can and cannot do in creation would help, something to explain things clearer since all the posts here seem to show there is confusion.

              During creation a character can take Hindrances. With the points generated from these Hindrances they can improve their characters in various ways.
              Players can improve attributes during creation for 2 points of Hindrances. Players can take Edges they qualify for (Players are considered Novice characters during creation). If an edge can only be taken once per rank taking the Edge during creation qualifies as taking the edge at Novice rank.

              Attributes however can be improved during play at Novice rank since increasing attributes during creation is not an advancement, but done through Hindrances.

              Clearly this needs editing, but the gist is there.

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by ZenFox42 View Post
                I too think this is a very confusing distinction, and even after reading the explanations here,
                Power Points is limited in the Edge itself. The limitations apply any time the Edge comes up.
                Attributes are limited in the Advancement rules. The limitations apply during Advancement only.

                It's that simple.
                I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
                  Power Points is limited in the Edge itself. The limitations apply any time the Edge comes up.
                  Attributes are limited in the Advancement rules. The limitations apply during Advancement only.

                  It's that simple.
                  In retrospect, it's that simple. The subtlties of the wording in the rules, however, makes it very hard to get to your very concise description.

                  I've been using SW for 5 years, and never noticed that difference. I had seen a different explanation of Clint's of how Attributes could be raised on a Novice Advancement after being raised during character creation (he did not discuss Edges), and figured the same applied to the Power Points Edge, despite it saying "once per Rank" (because raising an Attribute on an Advancement is also "once per Rank").
                  Savage Summaries-RAW, with added info from Clint:Combat Actions,Cover,Healing,Using Powers,Grappling,Chases
                  Also:Persuasion,Better Bosses,Better Combat Rating
                  And:historical tech levels,generic SW sci-fi tech levels

                  Comment


                  • ValhallaGH
                    ValhallaGH commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Sometimes the simplest explanations are the hardest to recognize. I'm glad it made sense.

                • #11
                  I don't remember the exact thread or I would've linked it, but it was confirmed that the "once per Rank" Edges are not retroactive either. So if a character misses Power Points at Novice, they can't take it twice at Seasoned.

                  I get the intent behind that, but it still bugs me a bit. It means that anyone who develops powers later in the game cannot "surge" to greatness. That's worthy of a houserule in some settings, I think.

                  Comment


                  • steelbrok
                    steelbrok commented
                    Editing a comment
                    It seems like something of a holdover from when Background edges were (without very good reason) limited to character creation

                  • mac40k
                    mac40k commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I seem to recall a discussion that the once per rank Attribute increases can't be taken later either.

                • #12
                  Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post
                  I don't remember the exact thread or I would've linked it, but it was confirmed that the "once per Rank" Edges are not retroactive either. So if a character misses Power Points at Novice, they can't take it twice at Seasoned.

                  I get the intent behind that, but it still bugs me a bit. It means that anyone who develops powers later in the game cannot "surge" to greatness. That's worthy of a houserule in some settings, I think.
                  "A houserule in some settings" would be what we call a Setting Rule.

                  And that's absolutely feasible and would allow for a character to "surge" up to be as powerful as a character who started with an AB. The current rule works for where a "Johnny-Come-Lately" won't be able to match the total power of a character who committed to the AB build from the beginning. In effect, it ties power to commitment in a way.
                  Clint Black
                  Forum Admin & Rules Answer Guy
                  Savage Worlds Brand Manager

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