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  • Bound and parry feedback

    Hello,

    I'm a new forum user, good day to you all. In regards to characters being bound, according to Pinnacle developers, the victim can still parry even though they are bound and gagged, unable to move or do any actions:

    https://www.pegforum.com/forum/savag...d-or-entangled

    I particularly don't like this ruling because it is not logical. The very definition I am speaking of is the past tense of to bind, which is to tie something up tightly. If you tie someone up to the point of which they cannot move, it is reasonable to assume that they will be unable to dart around and riposte your following sword attacks. The game rules indicate that a bound character is unable to do any physical actions except try to escape the bindings. I would assume, logically, that parrying is a physical activity. Parrying attacks involves a great deal of martial training and skill. Ducking, dodging, blocking, riposte, feet movement, and positioning are all physical activities that become impossible under the prohibition of physical activity while bound. I personally rule at my table that one cannot parry while tied up. It's a natural 2 if you get bound up and are just laying there on the floor.

    This is particularly huge for characters that put a great deal of development in the parry skill. Under the current rules, a martial champion with a parry of 14 or higher, reliant mostly on edges that assume the ability to move freely, can be entangled and then bound with a raise. One would simply need to roll a 13 fighting to hit this sitting duck with a sword, but a 2 to shoot the person... The idea is ludicrous, just my two cents.
    Last edited by stuguy9090; 01-07-2020, 03:22 PM.

  • #2
    Welcome to the forum!

    You're misrepresenting that answer.
    The Bound condition can be applied in combat by use of a net or grappling. Something that can happen during a fight and quite reasonably allows for defense skill to still matter.

    A victim bound and gagged as you describe would be helpless. A perfect victim for a Finishing Move, which automatically hits and kills the victims with no die rolls required.
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

    Comment


    • #3
      I respectfully disagree. I believe the spirit of your description infers various forms of entanglement, however, the bound condition is quite specific in the core rule's literature and how it is synchronous with the literal definition of, "to bind".

      SWADE: Bound - The character cannot make physical actions other than break free.

      To bind: To tie something tightly. Bound is past tense of to bind.

      Usage: The villain 'bound' the damsel and placed her helplessly on the rail road tracks.

      The very denotation in the book and dictionary infers that something is tied up tightly and cannot move, save for fighting against the bindings. This would prevent parrying, which cannot be done while tied up tightly.

      If the developers do not wish to change the system, I would offer the recommendation of updating the language so it is more specific to the desired use case. Perhaps "snared" or "trapped" are better words?


      Snared < Entangled < Bound

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, SWADE is already done and released, so for now it looks like you'll have to reconcile the difference between your interpretation of that term and PEG's interpretation. But feel free to bring this up again whenever they decide to launch a new edition.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by stuguy9090 View Post
          I respectfully disagree.
          That's fine.

          But you're conflating the rules effects of Bound (page 98) and Helpless (page 101, can be subject to finishing move) due to one possible application of the descriptive word bound. That's a logical inconsistency that my pedantry requires me to highlight.

          If you want to make Bound, a condition that can be applied in combat by a wrestler, also make victims helpless then you can do so. It will make ranged binding agents (nets, foam, bolas, the entangle power, etc.) into the most powerful of combat options, but that's your headache to deal with.
          I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

          Comment


          • #6
            I think you're taking the word "Bound" too literally. It's just the word that PEG used to represent a state in which your movement is restricted in some way (and moreso than Entangled). If they had happened to have chosen the word "Snared", we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And as ValhallahGH pointed out in his first post, "Bound" can range anywhere from being stuck under a net (and so still fairly free to move) to being completely tied up, in which case the target can't Parry and a Finishing Move against them becomes an option. SW depends a lot on GM interpretation, so it's up to you to determine how much the target's movement is limited based on what's been done to them (netted, grappled, tied up, etc.). If the target is tied up, then a Parry of 2 (or 0 when using Finishing Move) makes sense. But if they're able to move at all, the effective -2 to their Parry (thru the Vulnerable condition) is reasonable.
            Last edited by ZenFox42; 01-08-2020, 02:05 PM.
            Savage Summaries-RAW, with added info from Clint:Combat Actions,Cover,Healing,Using Powers,Grappling,Chases
            Also:Persuasion,Better Bosses,Better Combat Rating
            And:historical tech levels,generic SW sci-fi tech levels

            Comment


            • ZenFox42
              ZenFox42 commented
              Editing a comment
              Sorry I wasn't clear, but that's why I said "or [a Parry of] 0 when using Finishing Move" to imply that the action was automatic.

            • paladin2019
              paladin2019 commented
              Editing a comment
              A Parry 0 still means the target is resisting so a Trait roll is needed to affect them. This means that it is subject to a Critical Failure. Finishing off a Helpless defender doesn't require a roll; this is precisely why "Parry 0" is 100% the wrong way to describe the context of a Finishing Move.

            • ZenFox42
              ZenFox42 commented
              Editing a comment
              Mea culpa (or "my bad" in modern parlance). Won't do it again.

          • #7
            I think of all the times writers, magicians and native speakers have misused the word, by using it just like the game mechanic in the past to describe someones hands being bound, or legs bound...

            Sleeping people would be an example of someone helpless. But I would argue that Bound people can and do move. Imagine you chain me with handcuffs and ankle cuffs. I will still squirm and do my best Jackie Chan to resist you trying to kill me. But if i am sleeping, or otherwise completely helpless as you describe, then I will be able to do nothing as you perform the finishing blow on me.

            Comment


            • #8
              Originally posted by stuguy9090 View Post
              The very denotation in the book and dictionary infers that something is tied up tightly and cannot move, save for fighting against the bindings. This would prevent parrying, which cannot be done while tied up tightly.

              If the developers do not wish to change the system, I would offer the recommendation of updating the language so it is more specific to the desired use case. Perhaps "snared" or "trapped" are better words?
              As a veteran of the Meme Wars, I approve of your avatar, but allow me to retort...

              Click image for larger version  Name:	ClassicBlunder.jpg Views:	0 Size:	9.3 KB ID:	34332
              "...but only slightly less well known is this:
              Never assume the name of a game mechanic perfectly describes its form and function."

              As others have pointed out, "Bound" is just the name of the mechanic. It provides enough context to tell players generally what is occurring, but doesn't otherwise bog itself down in minutia.
              Your same argument can be applied to other mechanics as well. "Frenzy" carries some connotations with it, but the Edge doesn't need to be relegated to "uncontrolled or wild behavior." Indeed, despite the name, I think of Frenzy as being a skill-based maneuver more than anything. That doesn't mean it can't also be Trapped as wild flailing though.

              You can respectfully disagree---that's your prerogative---but I think you'd be doing a disservice to yourself, as well as the Savage Worlds system.

              Cheers!
              Last edited by Deskepticon; 01-08-2020, 03:38 PM.

              Comment


              • #9
                I think of all the times writers, magicians and native speakers have misused the word, by using it just like the game mechanic in the past to describe someones hands being bound, or legs bound...
                It isn't just a word, it's the very description of it. "You are unable to do any physical action except attempt to break free." Parrying is a physical activity. It just is. Why is this hard to understand?

                "Bound" is just the name of the mechanic. It provides enough context to tell players generally what is occurring, but doesn't otherwise bog itself down in minutia.
                It literally describes it as unable to perform ANY physical activity except attempt to break free. See above ^

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by stuguy9090 View Post
                  It isn't just a word, it's the very description of it. "You are unable to do any physical action except attempt to break free." Parrying is a physical activity. It just is. Why is this hard to understand?


                  It literally describes it as unable to perform ANY physical activity except attempt to break free. See above ^
                  By that interpretation the character can't breathe, can't move blood through their own veins, can't digest food, can't live. All of those are physical actions.
                  Being tied up doesn't prevent them.
                  Being tied up doesn't prevent movement, including trying to dodge fighting attacks.

                  Bound makes a character Vulnerable. Bound characters are usually also Unarmed defenders. Combined, that's a massive +4 to attacks against them.
                  I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by stuguy9090 View Post
                    It literally describes it as unable to perform ANY physical activity except attempt to break free. See above ^
                    Sure. You can run your game however you want, according to your own interpretation. Savage Worlds leaves a lot of judgment calls up to individual GMs.

                    But its important to try to read between the lines as well. Savage Worlds makes a distinction between 'active' actions and reactions. Defending oneself is considered a reaction, and has no game rules governing it except the Helpless condition. The description of Bound applies to the character's 'active' actions; it does not impact reactions.

                    Again, you are free to disagree and rule otherwise, but you may be making the Bound condition more powerful than the developers intended.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by stuguy9090 View Post
                      "You are unable to do any physical action except attempt to break free." Parrying is a physical activity.
                      Exactly. When attacked, the attacker makes an action (in the game's terms) while the defender doesn't. "Parrying" is not a physical action, it is not even a mechanic in the game. Just like the default Target Number of 4 for other actions, Parry is the game mechanic to define the basic difficulty to hit a defender. In this case, the mechanic calls for the Trait roll for the attack to be modified by the Vulnerable condition Bound applies to the defender, just like any other difficulty modifier to any other Trait roll.

                      Defend
                      is action of parrying or otherwise actively defending oneself from harm. This would be prohibited by the clause you quoted above.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Gamespeak is jargon. It is not a perfect correspondence to the original language being tapped for the terminology.

                        The designers could invent entirely new words that have no prior connotations. This doesn't work as well as you'd think it would--trying to recall, at the table, what it means to say that someone is Garkilsnoozed, and how that interacts with Ferlunkenshein, doesn't make for Fast, Furious and Fun.

                        The key thing to remember is that jargon is designed to be internally consistent and complete, to the best of the writers' ability. Bound limits physical actions, in which "action" is, itself, a game mechanic. Normal parrying is not an action, in this context.

                        Note, there are defensive maneuvers (Defend and Full Defense) that increase your Parry, which would not be available to the Bound character, because they do require a physical action to employ.

                        (See also: Numerous arguments about whether or not you can take the Arrogant Hindrance and then not challenge the strongest person on the battlefield, because you're reading the definition of 'arrogant' from the dictionary and just have it mean you think you're above everyone else. The dictionary definition, in this case, is irrelevant--what matters is the game mechanic associated with the jargon.)

                        Comment


                        • ValhallaGH
                          ValhallaGH commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Full Defense was removed from Adventure. It will always be an artifact of the Deluxe rules.

                        • Freemage
                          Freemage commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Thanks for the correction, there. I'm still in one game that is SWD, so sometimes I still get the rulesets mixed up.
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