Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[SWADE] Martial Artist Inconsistencies

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Savage Riggs View Post
    Jounichi I understand what you’re saying, and in the abstract I agree.

    My opinion is that:

    1) It’s preferable there not be a Novice Edge in a realistic setting which allows an unarmed character to completely circumvent the Unarmed Defender rule (I don’t care what KIND of unarmed fighting you’re talking about, it’s total fantasy-land), and

    2) If a method of fighting improves your chances to hit someone, it should also make you better at defending yourself from people using the same discipline. That’s just common sense (and it’s also consistent with the Trademark Weapon approach).

    All that said I can see what you’re all getting at. From my point of view, in grittier games of the nature I’ve referenced, it’s not a cut-and-dried choice. Pulp or fantasy settings, totally different story…but I prefer a little grit in my games. Opinions will vary!
    What you consider "realistic" may not be an accurate representation. After all, you've cited John Wick as a point for reference. It's fine if you prefer "gritty", but that's nothing more than a preference. It's important to remember that this core book is a tool box. It's the settings themselves which contextualize these Edges for play. Certain Edges may be changed or prohibited as the setting demands.

    That said, let's explore some of the rationale behind the Unarmed Defender rule and why Martial Artist allows players to circumvent it. The base rule says one person (or creature) attacking with a weapon has a +2 bonus to their Fighting roll against another person (or creature) without a weapon. Why? Off the top of my head, other games don't have it. So is it for verisimilitude, or is there something more going on? (Moving forward, keep in mind that being an Unarmed Defender is comparable to the Vulnerable condition.)

    I liken it to the Unarmed Defender being wary of engaging with an armed foe. Someone not practiced in fighting, I imagine, might very well be apprehensive about fighting someone wielding even just a knife. And this apprehension gives the attacker an advantage. That doesn't mean the Unarmed Defender can't still adeptly land a punch, mind you. But it does mean the knife-wielder can do things with their weapon the Unarmed Defender cannot. The weapon is, therefore, treated as an extension of the knife-wielder in a way which gives them a tangible advantage.

    Taking it one step further, a Martial Artist is someone who, in my view, has gotten past this apprehension. They not only know how to land a blow, but they're not as afraid of someone (or something) who is armed. And whatever their justification for this steely resolve can come from trappings. Whether it be it rough-and-tumble street fighting, professional boxing, a Shaolin monastery, or something else entirely; they're a practiced hand-to-hand combatant. They know how to guard against weapons just as well as they can get past the guard of an untrained mook. And against other Martial Artists, there's no real advantage. Barring any additional Edges or a higher Fighting die type, they both have the exact same advantages and disadvantages relative to one another.

    Comment


    • #17
      Again, Savage Worlds does not model realistic worlds by default. It is a pulp system. It's Doc Savage and Star Wars, not Game of Thrones and No Country for Old Men. If you wanted it very realistic, players shouldn't be able to soak wounds and there shouldn't be any difference between Wild Cards and Extras. Rules to make it more realistic and less pulp should be setting rules, not general rules.

      And again, even in games where disarm is a decent option, it's still rare enough that it's not worth an Edge to protect against it. In the new version of SW? He can draw another knife. Unless he's got a d4 Strength, he can probably carry at least a few knives or backup weapons.

      As far as getting into a place without weapons, a switchblade is -2 to Notice checks to find it, and at 10 bucks and 0.5 lbs a pop, it's a pretty cheap and easy thing to carry around.

      I don't know how much it should cost to buy the benefits of an Edge, but I'm pretty sure it should cost more than ten bucks.

      Whatever you think Martial Arts should do, it shouldn't just put a player character on par with a character with a knife. It should make them better. An Edge's benefits worth of better. Even if they fix Disarm to make it a viable move, it still won't be a big advantage.

      Comment


      • #18
        Jounichi Originally I wrote a reply explaining how and why I feel the way I do, but I shared more about myself than I really want to. Let me just say instead, everything about my reasons has to do with very prolonged and extensive real-world experience. It's not what I "think is realistic", but what I know from experience to be realistic. That said, whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

        JackMann We'll just have to agree to disagree. In my opinion Savage Worlds is capable of handling a wide spectrum of things quite well. None of the things you've mentioned have posed any problem whatsoever in my own games, but I think we have a fundamentally different view of the function martial arts should serve. That's perfectly fair, and no skin off my nose. May your own path bring you as much fun and happiness as mine does me!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Savage Riggs View Post
          Here’s what I have as a comparison for those options (assuming Caine has a Fighting of d10)
          I am unconvinced by your points. And you're unconvinced by mine. So, I wish you good luck and much joy.

          If you have other house rules you'd like some discussion about, I'd be happy to contribute. I'll even accept whatever existing house rules you mention in the discussion (no matter my feelings about them).

          Originally posted by Savage Riggs View Post
          My opinion is that:

          1) It’s preferable there not be a Novice Edge in a realistic setting which allows an unarmed character to completely circumvent the Unarmed Defender rule (I don’t care what KIND of unarmed fighting you’re talking about, it’s total fantasy-land), and

          2) If a method of fighting improves your chances to hit someone, it should also make you better at defending yourself from people using the same discipline. That’s just common sense (and it’s also consistent with the Trademark Weapon approach).
          1) Simple Fix: Don't allow Martial Artist in a realistic game, or bump it up to whatever Rank makes the most sense for your particular setting. Maybe "Hands like Knives" is a Veteran or Heroic edge and "Hands like Swords" is Heroic or Legendary. If it is a cool ability that fits into the campaign world, but should only be available at the highest levels of experience, then bump it up to those highest levels. If it doesn't belong in the world at all then don't allow it.
          For players that were eying it, point them at Improvisational Fighter. Most of your statements have mentioned improvised weapons, and that's an excellent Edge for anyone that resorts to such frequently.
          Aside: my Savage Bourne has Improvisational Fighter instead of Martial Artist or Brawler. In hand combat he always goes for "random object", and combined with his Block and Counterattack Edges, it works shockingly well.
          But, if you want to keep a Martial Artist edge around, and you want it to be available at Novice, and you don't want it to negate Unarmed Defender then getting +1 Fighting and +1 Parry, in addition to +d4 damage and can be Two Fisted, makes it usable. The character is still almost always better grabbing a knife - but for you that's a feature, not a bug, so I'll ignore it.

          2) Maybe? Wild Attack sets a real precedent against. So does Two Weapons (page 108).
          Besides, a character can get +4 Parry from Edges, +6 if he uses a Trademark Weapon (that can also have a Parry bonus). That's more than enough to counter any attack bonuses
          Aside: In fact, the Trademark Rapier build gives +3 Parry with the off hand - the same bonus for a Large Shield. No wonder PEG isn't changing the Shield bonus.
          There's also the issue of game balance: any Edge that gives +1 attack, +1 Parry, increased unarmed / claw damage, can be Two Fisted and similar weapon edges, and eliminates Unarmed Defender is just too much of a good thing. Something needs to be cut and PEG chose to cut Parry. I can't disagree with that choice, given what they want the edge to do. Though I suspect that if you'd been involved you'd have pushed hard to cut the Unarmed Defender portion.
          ... Wow, I distracted myself but that all seems to have value so I'll leave it.
          The point was that there are two "I get a bonus to hit for the Fighting style but no bonus to defense" mechanics. There are also at least three "bonus defense but no offense" mechanics. You should reconsider this assumption - and I do mean reconsider, not reject; you've claimed more experience in the IRL field than I have so you'll need to find the balance that works for you.
          I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Savage Riggs View Post
            Jounichi Originally I wrote a reply explaining how and why I feel the way I do, but I shared more about myself than I really want to. Let me just say instead, everything about my reasons has to do with very prolonged and extensive real-world experience. It's not what I "think is realistic", but what I know from experience to be realistic. That said, whatever floats your boat is fine by me.
            This, I think, is a key bit of this discussion that is getting lost as sub-text.

            To-wit: Gamespeak ain't English. It's a separate glossary of jargon, meant to be self-referential, rather than directly tied to the Oxford Dictionary.

            This comes up occasionally when discussing the Arrogant Hindrance, for instance. In real life, 'arrogance' means someone who has "an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities." In Savage Worlds, it means specifically a character who engages the most dangerous opponent in combat, and only bothers with 'lessers' if they're in the way. Now, one can certainly see how Arrogant reflects a specific kind of arrogance, but it doesn't cover, say, the guy who mansplains the implications of a paper in a physics journal to the author of the paper, or the girl who aced tests in high school thinking that he doesn't need to study in college, either, and while the player of the Arrogant character might also choose to portray such behaviors, that doesn't get them out of the key requirement of playing an Arrogant character--engaging the most dangerous foe in combat, to the preference of all others, regardless of tactical aspects of the fight.

            You have real-world experience with unarmed combat, and furthermore, your understanding of that is heavily defined, in your mind, by the words "Martial Arts". But those real-life experiences were not, in any way, what the authors were going for when they wrote the Martial Arts Edge. (Hell, many real-world martial arts styles incorporate weapons, yet this Edge completely ignores that, too). Rename the existing Edges as Bloopnob, Blaggertype, Cormock and Gillhoopsnornset, and you still have the functions they are meant to fulfill of Martial Artist, Martial Warrior, Brawler and Bruiser, you just have a lot fewer people remembering them at the table.

            For your home game (or a setting you were seeking to publish, for instance), it might make sense to add additional Edges or Setting Rules that bring combat more in line with how your real-world experience suggests combat between two skilled unarmed fighters, or a skilled unarmed fighter vs. a skilled armed fighter, should go, but by focusing on the basic definitions of the words, rather than the game definitions, you're missing the forest for the trees.

            Comment

            Working...
            X