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[SWADE] Why was Two-Fisted split into two edges?

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  • [SWADE] Why was Two-Fisted split into two edges?

    In SWADE, Two-Fisted covers only melee attacks, and Two-Gun Kid covers only ranged attacks. I don't see why this was necessary. It adds a bit of complexity, since there's one more edge to keep track of, and doesn't solve any problems that I'm aware of.

    It also penalizes more well-rounded characters, that have put points into both Fighting and Shooting. I don't think there needed to be more incentives to build one-dimensional characters.
    Last edited by Soulliard; 01-02-2019, 04:00 AM.

  • #2
    I don't think it penalizes balanced characters. It does sort of make them decide if they are ranged monsters or melee monsters. Or both if they really want and are willing to do the "extra training" required. To me it always felt too easy to be good with both hands. It is a completely different skill set fighting with two weapons as opposed to shooting two guns.
    I have way too much time but do not always edit myself properly. Please do not take offense.

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    • Soulliard
      Soulliard commented
      Editing a comment
      My use of the term "balanced" probably caused some confusion here. I should have said that it penalizes "well-rounded" characters.

      I get that fighting with two swords vs. two guns require a completely different set of skills, but that's already reflected by requiring an investment in two different skills. Requiring two edges on top of that is just redundant.
      Last edited by Soulliard; 01-02-2019, 04:02 AM.

  • #3
    "Balanced" is the wrong word to be using in this discussion, since it has a lot of connotations and denotations that apply generally to RPGs.

    I'm going to speculate that PEG split it into two edges because they found that having one edge for all two weapon combat was too homogeneous; long lists of characters looked far too much the same in build despite having wildly disparate fighting styles. But that's just speculation. I have yet to see any discussion of why they made this change.

    Personally, I'm of two minds about it. It does make it more expensive to play a sword & pistol character, but it does mean the twin pistol gunslinger and the stab happy knife wielder no longer have the exact same Edge list, which I know many of my players will be glad about.
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

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    • Soulliard
      Soulliard commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks for pointing out how using the word "balanced" was causing some confusion here. I've edited my first post.

  • #4
    For specific settings, I'm going to be tempted to make a "Swashbuckler" Edge that specifically allows one gun and one melee weapon, for characters who want to go that route, with preference over either 'paired weapon' approaches. Figure anything set in and around the Golden Age of Piracy, or meant to evoke a similar vibe. But honestly, I think the split Edges do make sense for differentiating between builds.

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    • #5
      Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
      it does mean the twin pistol gunslinger and the stab happy knife wielder no longer have the exact same Edge list,
      And this change is a necessary thing?. The Florentine and the pistolero wouldn't necessarily have the same Skills and this potentially changes only a single Edge on their lists. The only reason I see here is the design team felt that sword/sword/shoot or shoot/shoot/sword was strong enough vs. SWD's sword/shoot limit that the trick needed to be divided into two Edges instead of one. Alternately, Deadlands' version of Pistolero/Two-Gun Kid may have influenced the design, as well. Who would take a limited two weapon Edge when an unrestricted one is available?

      Comment


      • Freemage
        Freemage commented
        Editing a comment
        I think the issue is that very often, the Florentine became a pistolero in short order, or vice-versa. Start with a d8 Agility, it's trivial to get BOTH Shooting and Fighting to d10s by Seasoned, then you drop the d12 Agility, d12 Fighting/shooting combo pack. Now it takes a bit more investment to be an all-around soldier. For that kind of compressed build, the extra Edge is still going to enough of a drawback that some folks will choose, instead, to double-down on either the Shooting or Fighting aspects.

      • Soulliard
        Soulliard commented
        Editing a comment
        I wouldn't say it's trivial. It costs around 3 advances (give or take, depending on how worthwhile a d12 agility would be to you otherwise). If those 3 advances were all dedicated towards, say, melee combat edges, they'd make you a much more powerful melee combatant than the well-rounded character. That seems like a fair tradeoff to me.

        Is there a reason you want to encourage players to double-down and create super-specialized builds? One-dimensional combat-monsters aren't the most interesting characters, from my experience.

    • #6
      Originally posted by paladin2019 View Post
      And this change is a necessary thing?
      Given how many players have chosen two weapons over my years with Savage Worlds, obviously not.
      But apparently PEG felt it was an improvement, or they wouldn't have done it.
      I don't have access to their reasoning or data, so I'm not in a position to judge it at this time. I would be curious to see that information.

      Pistolero and Two-Gun Kid worked with the existing Two-Fisted, complementing and improving the two pistol fighting style. Neither edge was great, but they weren't redundant like you've implied.
      I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

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      • Soulliard
        Soulliard commented
        Editing a comment
        Two-fisted has certainly been a popular edge, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that fighting with two weapons is cool and stylish. I don't think it was an exceptionally powerful edge, and now it's even less important. Anyone can make multiple attacks per round now, and Frenzy is going to be a way better edge for most characters.

      • Freemage
        Freemage commented
        Editing a comment
        The key thing you're missing is timing. I can get Two-Fisted and Ambidextrous out of the gate, and still have room for one more Edge or stat-bump if I'm human. Unless I'm in a Born A Hero campaign, though, Frenzy is 20 XP away, and Improved Frenzy if 40 XP. That's several sessions of play without the ability to multi-strike without potentially crippling penalties.

        Furthermore, let's look at what happens at Veteran:
        Two-Fisted/Ambi Fighter can attack three times (each with a wild die) at a -2 penalty. He can also dual-strike with 2 Wild Dice at no penalty.
        Imp. Frenzy Fighter can roll up to 5 Fighting dice (with three wild dice), but at a -4 penalty, or can forgo the final attack to roll 4 Fighting dice with two Wild Dice at -2. If he needs to attack at no penalty, though, then he only gets two Fighting dice with one wild die.
        Of course, Imp. Frenzy Two-Fisted Ambi will get in 5 Fighting rolls at -2, or two double-strikes for no penalty, for the best of both worlds. And he probably got there at a leisurely 1 Edge per Rank (taking Ambi at Creation). This allows for a lot of space to build on some other aspect of the character.
        Last edited by Freemage; 01-02-2019, 07:47 PM.

      • Soulliard
        Soulliard commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm not saying that Frenzy is strictly superior. But it's the gold standard for melee combat edges. It's roughly as strong as Ambidextrous and Two-Fisted combined, for the cost of only one edge (you get one less wild die, but it lets you use a shield or two-handed weapon). Unless an edge is clearly better than Frenzy, I don't think you can make a strong case that it's overpowered.

        Using Zadmar's combat simulator, the new Frenzy is worth ~2 edges, while Two-Fisted+Ambidextrous together are worth ~1.33 edges, and Two-Fisted by itself is worth ~.75 edges.

        (Improved Frenzy is much more situational, and I'd only use it with certain builds, like the two-weapon fighter.)

    • #7
      Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
      Pistolero and Two-Gun Kid worked with the existing Two-Fisted, complementing and improving the two pistol fighting style. Neither edge was great, but they weren't redundant like you've implied.
      Fair enough, I'm not a big Deadlands player and didn't look it back up, just mis-remembered it.

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      • #8
        I really like this change. Felt wrong with old Two-fisted when one could use the combo stated above. It is still possible for those who really wants it, it just take some training in the form of buying one extra edge.

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        • #9
          I don't see why Two-whatever isn't just one edge where you choose what flavour (you want two guns, two meele or one of each) when you purchase it, kind of like how Arcane

          Background is split too.

          EDIT It was something I was going to ask about before the 2.1 subforum closed
          Last edited by Matchstickman; 01-02-2019, 06:07 PM.

          Comment


          • Freemage
            Freemage commented
            Editing a comment
            Well, that would actually prevent building for both options, because Edges generally can only be taken once. So you'd actually be limiting them.

          • Oneiros
            Oneiros commented
            Editing a comment
            Freemage Trademark Weapon can be taken multiple times. No reason you couldn’t do something similar for a Two Fisted Edge.

        • #10
          I actually like the split; the only thing I don't really like is that Two-Gun Kid is used for throwing weapons. That feature feels much more at home with Two-Fisted.

          Consider the classic dual-wielding rogue. Stabbing an enemy with one knife before chucking the other is a huge part of that trope, but with this change he would have to also be able to proficiently dual-wield flintlock pistols in order to perform that maneuver. It also means that any pirates that are good with flintlock pistols will also be trained in firing a pistol in one hand, then flinging a dagger (or maybe another pistol that was already fired) at a foe—so drawing a knife and pistol on your first round (shoot then throw), then the following round throwing the pistol, drawing two more pistols, and firing one of them with no MAP becomes a viable and efficient strategy. It's a weird kind of play that's encouraged by the Edge setup as-is.
          Last edited by DoctorBoson; 01-03-2019, 06:19 AM.
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          • #11
            I'm going to use the old version.

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            • #12
              I'm also a fan of the new rules. My group used to joke that "right hand gun, left hand rapier" was the official Savage Worlds fighting style, so it's nice to see being a gun-and-sword guy finally being something you have to specifically train for instead of just sort of picking up incidentally because you were training to be the two-gun kid.

              Comment


              • Soulliard
                Soulliard commented
                Editing a comment
                What made that style so popular with your group? I've never seen anyone pursue it, and it doesn't seem especially powerful to me.

                I've occasionally seen a left-hand melee weapon purely for defensive purposes, but that doesn't require being two-fisted, and anyone who actually was two-fisted would prefer to carry a second weapon for attacking.

              • blackwingedheaven
                blackwingedheaven commented
                Editing a comment
                It's mostly a joke, but their rationale was that you have a pistol for ranged combat and an off-hand melee weapon to avoid being an unarmed defender--and since you're just using the off-hand for defensive purposes, you might as well be using a rapier.

            • #13
              Originally posted by blackwingedheaven View Post
              "right hand gun, left hand rapier" was the official Savage Worlds fighting style
              I see nothing wrong with that.

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