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Why is Doubletap an Edge?

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  • Why is Doubletap an Edge?

    I’m curious why this became an edge.

  • #2
    I assume because in real life, double tapping requires training, as opposed to 3RB which is built into a firearm.

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    • #3
      @Vincent
      cant reply in rulequestion section regarding Frenzy, but it works like one fightingroll with an additional dice (like RoF), 2 such actions with the improved version.

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      • #4
        Bare minimum: so it can be done with semi-auto rifles and shotguns.

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        • #5
          Probably because with the change to reloading, there's almost no reason not to double tap if you can (unless you're in a setting where ammo is scarce).

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          • #6
            double tapping in real life is something that requires a lot of training to actually do effectively on a consistent basis. but the other thing is, because you can reload one magazine as a free action, who wouldn't double tap if they could get away with it? i mean, ammunition has weight, but because reloading is free, they had to tax the double tappers elsewhere.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Vinzent View Post
              I’m curious why this became an edge.
              Until Pinnacle announces the design thinking, we can only speculate. So I'ma do that.

              Speculation: Like a lot of the changes, it was done for a variety of reasons that individually weren't worth the change but collectively made it really appealing.
              • It better simulates the training required to use Double Tap effectively.
              • It makes Double Tap a matter of character skill rather than weapon design.
              • It allows revolvers, pump-action guns, bolt-action guns, and similarly slow firing magazine-fed weapons to use Double Tap.
              • It removes an "obviously better" combat option from most characters, reducing the importance of equipment and the frequency of fiddly modifiers (especially important for pick up games or introducing newbies).
              • It cuts down on the endless "can I combine Double Tap and RoF 3" questions.
              • It lets them reduce the base power of 3RB. This is a good thing, to my mind.
              Probably some other reasons, and I may have missed the ones that mattered the most. But that's my speculation.
              I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

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              • #8
                I loved it. Simpler and more thematic. Ranged weapons rules were too bloated before IMO, now it's streamlined

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                • #9
                  3RB was too good. literal +2 to shooting and damage that kind of invalidated edges like Marksman and also made it too easy to guarantee a hit with a firearm. this usually, when combined with a scope and marksman, made RoF 3 assault rifles into better sniper rifles than sniper rifles were because marksman could be combined with 3RB and a Scope, and Assault Rifles had good enough attack ranges, that Sniper Rifles weren't needed. which literally lead to it being better to snipe foes with an M-16 or AK-47 because the extra range on a real sniper rifle wasn't needed and the extra damage didn't matter if the extra AP was irrelevant, either due to kevlar vests or due to a headshot.
                  Last edited by Ilina_Young; 12-13-2018, 11:06 PM.

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                  • #10
                    I registered just to ask this and I have yet to find a good answer. Maybe I just need some time to warm up to the rules though.

                    Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post

                    Until Pinnacle announces the design thinking, we can only speculate. So I'ma do that.

                    Speculation: Like a lot of the changes, it was done for a variety of reasons that individually weren't worth the change but collectively made it really appealing.
                    • It better simulates the training required to use Double Tap effectively.
                    • It makes Double Tap a matter of character skill rather than weapon design.
                    • It allows revolvers, pump-action guns, bolt-action guns, and similarly slow firing magazine-fed weapons to use Double Tap.
                    • It removes an "obviously better" combat option from most characters, reducing the importance of equipment and the frequency of fiddly modifiers (especially important for pick up games or introducing newbies).
                    • It cuts down on the endless "can I combine Double Tap and RoF 3" questions.
                    • It lets them reduce the base power of 3RB. This is a good thing, to my mind.
                    Probably some other reasons, and I may have missed the ones that mattered the most. But that's my speculation.
                    I guess I can see some of your points but I do think it's kinda underpowered now. At least nothing I'd get for my character. If they wanted to nerf the 3RB then maybe it would have been better to just change it, instead of making it an edge.
                    How about:
                    3RB: +1 to hit, +1dmg
                    Double Tap: +1 to hit (possibly +1 dmg on a raise?)

                    I also kinda wonder how Single Action and Double Action Revolvers would work in the new Deadlands Rules. Since the double tap of the former and fanning of the later are not gun specific, I guess there's only "Generic Revolver" now.

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                    • ValhallaGH
                      ValhallaGH commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Double Tap is an Edge that provides +1 to hit and damage with most firearms.
                      That's a darn good Edge, even if it does increase ammo costs.

                  • #11
                    Spending an edge to get +1 hit and damage sounds pretty awesome to me. That's essentially what you get from the Martial Artist chain of edges, and no one's complaining about them being too weak.

                    To me, the most compelling justification is "It removes an "obviously better" combat option from most characters, reducing the importance of equipment and the frequency of fiddly modifiers (especially important for pick up games or introducing newbies)." Outside of settings where ammo was very scarce, there was little reason not to double-tap with every single shot.

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                    • #12
                      It's not quite as obviously better as it was when they were making reloading guns a free action, since it eats through ammo faster and give you a dead action that much sooner. It's still pretty darned good, though, especially if you think you have a decent shot of ending the combat before your weapon is empty. It'd be interesting to run the numbers on how much faster the combat is likely to end double tapping (with a reload action) vs. regular fire.

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                      • #13
                        Even with a hypothetical 2-bullet gun, double-tapping and reloading as a multi-action nets you -1 Shooting, +1 damage. That's slightly negative on average, but will still make sense sometimes. For every 2 additional bullets in the clip, double-tapping becomes a significantly better option. With a 6-bullet clip, you pretty clearly come out ahead.

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                        • #14
                          Okay, time for some math. We'll make some assumptions and remove as many other factors from the equation as possible. Wild card with a d8 Shooting. We'll test with a Glock and a Desert Eagle. They'll use a single action each turn, either firing or reloading. We'll see how many wounds they can expect to cause over twenty rounds. Their targets will have 5, 7 9, and 11 Toughness and no armor. No other modifiers on the roll. We'll also ignore double shaken to keep things simple.

                          Glock
                          Toughness Regular Fire Double Tap
                          5 13.6 18.5
                          7 9.5 12.9
                          9 6.3 8.9
                          11 3.1 5.8
                          The glock has 17 rounds. For regular fire, that's 17 bullets going downrange, a round to reload, and then finishing out with two more bullets, for a total of nineteen shots. We're going to assume that for the second column, the shooter double taps eight times, fires the remaining bullet, and then reloads. That makes sixteen rounds on double tap, two on regular five, and two spent reloading. Regular fire is going to use 19 rounds, while Double Tap is going to use 34.


                          Desert Eagle
                          Toughness Regular Fire Double Tap
                          5 18.5 21.8
                          7 13.4 15.8
                          9 9.5 11.5
                          11 6.6 8.1
                          The Desert Eagle has 7 rounds. For regular fire, that's two rounds in our twenty spent reloading, and eighteen rounds downrange. When double tapping, it's three double taps, one lone bullet, then reload. That's five rounds, so it happens four times. Regular fire uses 18 rounds, while Double Tapping uses 28.

                          Again, these numbers are expected Wounds, not damage. At it's best, it's about five extra Wounds over twenty rounds, or an extra Wound every four rounds. That's not too bad. And that's not counting Shaking a target that's already Shaken, or combining it with other tricks. A Two-Gun fighter can get some real use out it, though reloading is going to be a bit more of a chore (possibly a reason to invest in some extra pistols, a la Blackbeard).

                          It definitely benefits the Glock more than the Desert Eagle, taking advantage of the greater magazine. But even the Desert Eagle gets some benefit from Double Tapping.

                          I don't think it's ultimately as powerful as some of the other Combat Edges like Two-Gun or Marksman, but I think it's a pretty decent combat option if you're making a ranged specialist and have an Edge to spare.

                          If you have the Edge, then the only real limiter is going to be ammunition. Depending on the setting, that may or may not matter. If bullets are plentiful in the setting and you're not completely strapped for weight, you basically always want to be Double Tapping.
                          Last edited by JackMann; 01-05-2019, 04:43 PM.

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                          • DoctorBoson
                            DoctorBoson commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Just a small note, Marksman doesn’t help with the MAP from reloading; it only helps with penalties from stuff like Scale, Called Shots, Range, and Cover

                            Otherwise, great breakdown!

                          • JackMann
                            JackMann commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Ah, you're right. For some reason I thought MAP was included in there.
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