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Reloading is a free action

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  • #31
    The revolver is way faster than the blackpowder weapons. Heres a little chart thing at the same MAP -4. both are empty.

    blackpowder. revolver.
    1 reload/reload/shoot. reload/reload/shoot
    2 reload/reload/shoot. reload/reload/shoot
    3 reload/reload/shoot. reload/reload/shoot
    4 reload/reload/shoot. reload/reload/shoot
    5 reload/reload/shoot. reload/reload/shoot
    6 reload/reload/shoot. reload/shoot/shoot
    7 reload/reload/shoot. shoot/shoot/shoot
    8 reload/reload/shoot. shoot/reload/shoot
    9 reload/reload/shoot. reload/reload/shoot
    10 reload/reload/shoot. reload/reload/shoot

    totals
    10 shots. 14 shots

    Its still way to screwd in blackpowders favor. 10 shots in 1 minute. But the revlover could just reload and shoot per turn instead. Blackpowder is at -4 for empty to 1 shot. While revolvers are -2 from empty to 1 shot.

    Reloading the whole clinder takes a while to do. But if you spend the time to do it you can get 12 shots off in 10 rounds. You would shoot the last shot of the 12 shots on the 8th round of combat. But if you kept that pattern you would be fully loaded at the end of round 10. Add in speed clips or removing and replacing the cylinder. The revolver could be reloading in 1 round. the Blackpowder, or any slow reload weapon, will be stuck at -4 to shoot in the same round. Never having more shots in the next. Even if the gun had 2 barrels, it would take 2 actions per barrel. Which is still 1 shot per round if you choose to shoot. The revolver could also stutter the shots and reloads.

    reload/reload/shoot
    reload/shoot/shoot

    This allows 2 shots every second round. At 15 shots per minute.

    Revolvers are slightly better. But long reload weapons should be counted in rounds still. 10 shots in a minute is too fast for a musket. Or crossbow for that matter. Especially when you can walk and reload. The mind boggles how that happens. How can you walk with your foot in a stirrup pulling on the string with 2 hands or a goats foot(lever).
    Maybe with a gear wench? That seems extra though.

    Comment


    • mattprice516
      mattprice516 commented
      Editing a comment
      This breakdown displays my issue with the system pretty well - I do not think a system in which it is more efficient for the revolver-user to open and close the cylinder every few shots rather than just fully reloading it after he runs out of bullets makes any sense.

  • #32
    I'll be the crazy voice crying into the wind. I think the reloading time for muzzle loading weapons are way too short. I'd triple them so that muzzle loading smoothbores would take 6 actions and muzzle loading rifles would take 9 actions. If a character devoted all three of their actions per turn to reloading it'd take 2 turns to reload the smoothbore and 3 turns to reload the rifle. It'd also leave room for their to be a "musketeer" edge for those well-drilled in reloading. However, it looks like SWADE is not headed in that direction so this would be something to house rule.

    Comment


    • ValhallaGH
      ValhallaGH commented
      Editing a comment
      Why? Why are you encouraging ranged fighters to use bows instead of muzzle loading weapons? The rules already encourage that, with bows having longer ranges, faster fire rates, and comparable damage.
      Given that combats are only about 3 rounds long, there is no reason to use a muzzle loader with that house rule unless the GM refuses to let your character find a bow.

    • Soulliard
      Soulliard commented
      Editing a comment
      With those rules, even if the GM refused to let me use a bow, I'd rather just fight with a sword.

  • #33
    @mattprice516 @Oneiros
    I'm glad you like it. At least I'm certain to houserule it like this if the rule doesn't change. FFF is one thing but I don't think it should take the same amount of time to fully load a Double Barreled shotgun should and a musket.

    Originally posted by Oneiros View Post

    Not to get to simulationist, but I think that the 1/2 Agility works when dealing with individual ammo for fire arms without causing problems for other weapon types. That same caveat of ammo type was included in the last version of the rules involving loading as a free action. Popping and closing the cylinder is a quick action, regardless of how many bullets you put in. Agility comes in with how quickly you can thumb bullets into an empty chamber. Same with loading individual shotgun shells, or ammo into an empty clip.

    A black powder weapon, on the other hand, is an entire process to get a single piece of ammo properly set into the weapon. How dexterous you are doesn't really come into play, other than not spilling the powder. It's already unrealistically shortened in the name of game play, so no reason to apply the 1/2 agility rule to it. For clips, yes an agile character is probably quicker at putting the mag in the weapon, but not so fast as to make it a free action.

    That said, I kind of like your 2 bullets per action idea, as it's a nice set value, and reflects the simpler process of loading such ammo compared to black powder weapons.
    Perhaps that could be used for a for a Speedload Edge? Apparently Deadlands is getting reworked anyways and there has to be some sort of Speeload ability in it. Perhaps like this:

    Speed Load
    Req: S, Agi d8+, Shoo d6+
    Beyond the usual 2 bullets, you hero can reload a number of additional shots. This number is based on half your Agility attribute rounded down.

    or
    Make a shooting roll. For each success and raise, your hero loads an additional shot beyond the usual 2.

    Maybe this edge should also reduce the reload time of weapons that take longer to reload, to a minimum of 1 action, the way it did in Deadlands Reloaded? Just some random ideas.

    Originally posted by wmarshal View Post
    I'll be the crazy voice crying into the wind. I think the reloading time for muzzle loading weapons are way too short. I'd triple them so that muzzle loading smoothbores would take 6 actions and muzzle loading rifles would take 9 actions. If a character devoted all three of their actions per turn to reloading it'd take 2 turns to reload the smoothbore and 3 turns to reload the rifle. It'd also leave room for their to be a "musketeer" edge for those well-drilled in reloading. However, it looks like SWADE is not headed in that direction so this would be something to house rule.
    It think Blackpowder weapons and crossbows are fine the way they are. Please rmember that getting shot IRL or a gritty system has a good chance of taking you out of a fight. In SW, it has a good chance of makng you chaken and even that is hard with thougher enemies. Black Powder weapons with such a long reload time would be useless in combat, unless you increase the damage to make up for it and then you'd get the awkward situation in which a musket is far more powerful than a modern assault rifle.


    This is only semi-related to the reload topic but I might as well ask it here first, as it seems there's many gun enthusiasts in the thread. Isn't the derringer hilariously underpowered? It already has the obvious disadvantage of limited range and ammo, why decrease the damage to 2d4 when the 2d6 of previous editions worked just fine? I'm not even sure if this isn't a typo.

    Comment


    • #34
      The .41 caliber derringer fires a low powered cartridge so I think it's understandable for the damage to be 2d4. I'd note that the same is not true of modern derringers which are made in a variety of models that fire modern cartridges. You can Google "Bond Arms" to see a modern derringer. For modern derringers I'd pick a pistol caliber such as .38, 9mm, etc., and use that damage value with the short range of a derringer.

      Comment


      • ValhallaGH
        ValhallaGH commented
        Editing a comment
        I'd prefer 2d6-1, myself.

      • wmarshal
        wmarshal commented
        Editing a comment
        Any reason to prefer 2d6-1 over 2d4+1? They're almost the same statistically, and in my experience some players have difficulty (depressing but true) doing subtraction on the fly at the table.

    • #35
      Originally posted by wmarshal View Post
      The .41 caliber derringer fires a low powered cartridge so I think it's understandable for the damage to be 2d4. I'd note that the same is not true of modern derringers which are made in a variety of models that fire modern cartridges. You can Google "Bond Arms" to see a modern derringer. For modern derringers I'd pick a pistol caliber such as .38, 9mm, etc., and use that damage value with the short range of a derringer.
      Now, I don't know anything about firearms but 2d4 just seems unreasonably weak. You got two shots of "a weak person with a knife" before you have to reload. Good luck getting even weak extras shaken with that. You'd almost be better off using the derringer as a club or throwing a couple of rocks. At least you don't have to reload them.

      Comment


      • ValhallaGH
        ValhallaGH commented
        Editing a comment
        Actually it's 6.667. Enough to cause Shaken on a normal d6, or "tough" d8 Extra. With a Raise, that average increases to 10.867. Enough to Wound those same Extras.

      • Questionman
        Questionman commented
        Editing a comment
        In retrospect, that sounded way snobbier than I thought. Sorry about that.

        The damage was and still is my biggest problem with the derringer but that's in combination with it's other drawbacks. It's low range means you are more likely to suffer negative modifiers for the shot and you only got two shots in the first place before you got to use one action to reload a single bullet. That means you are less likely to hit anything in the first place (and you are less likely to get a raise for extra d6 damage).
        Last edited by Questionman; 01-06-2019, 10:10 AM.

      • wmarshal
        wmarshal commented
        Editing a comment
        @Questionman: I don't know what else to say other than that small, concealable pistols do indeed suffer from significant disadvantages when compared to full size pistols. To get a small pistol you give up barrel length, poorer sight picture, fewer rounds, etc. All compromises to make the pistol light enough and small enough to conceal. A concealable pistol is meant to be used a last resort before throwing rocks or punches, and often in the real world can end a threatening situation just by being presented. In game terms think of a small pistol being used to get a bonus on an Intimidate roll versus an unarmed mugger, who then decides to flee. Of course, it would have no value as a means of Intimidation against a well armed and deadly hostile opposition, but that's not the scenario that people carry small pistols for.

    • #36
      It's worth noting the reloading is no longer a free action, for anything other than an arrow or sling bullet

      Comment


      • Questionman
        Questionman commented
        Editing a comment
        Yeah but that was the cause of a new problem when reloading single bullets.

    • #37
      Free action for reloading a semi-auto weapon with a clip is more realistic than a trained shootist taking SIX SECONDS to drop and slap a mag into their weapon, and that include sliding the action to load a round in the chamber. It's silly and I'm house ruling it back to a free action once per round.

      We're talking pulp level characters, not the average joe on the street for the most part here. If you have Shooting, you know how to reload your weapon.

      Heck, I'd be cool with one free reload of a revolver, a la Dark Tower movie, no matter what people think of it's faithfulness to the source material.

      Comment


      • dentris
        dentris commented
        Editing a comment
        First of all, you can do three actions per rounds, so it's two seconds to reload. Second, the key word is trained shooter. I would have no problems with a Speed Loader Edge that allows one free reload per round or something similar.

      • DoctorBoson
        DoctorBoson commented
        Editing a comment
        Doubling down on what dentris said. Taking an action doesn’t mean taking 6 seconds, it means it’s harder to reload and accurately put a round down range than to simply take a shot.
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