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  • Reloading is a free action

    Am I the only one bothered by the fact reloading is a free action? I consider it counterintuitive and it makes a gun with higher damage but smaller magazine almost always better. It also makes the extra ammo expenditure of 3RB and ROF weapons marginal annoyance at best, instead of the fair trade-off they should be (losing an action more often since you have to reload).

  • #2
    Reloading was inconsistent before. An arrow could be knocked (and thus "reloading" the bow) as a free action, but anything else required an action. Or multiple actions (and therefore multiple rounds) if it had Reload 2. The new rule makes things more consistent, but now you only reload one bullet at a time. For example, it's only a free action to put one bullet in the cylinder in a six-shooter. So now it takes six rounds to reload the entire pistol; unless you have something to speed it up. Yeah, magazines and clips essentially trivialize reloading. That's the beauty of modern technology.

    And now the Reload quality refers to rounds instead of actions. I'll want to see how that plays in combat before passing judgment, but it simplifies keeping track of what I've done on each round.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think the whole point of Savage Worlds is that it's more fun to shoot the gun than it is to reload it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by dentris View Post
        Am I the only one bothered by the fact reloading is a free action?
        Probably not, but you're definitely in the minority.

        I think you're downplaying just how quickly a character will chew through ammunition, and you can only reload once per round. So using Improved Rapid Fire with a Desert Eagle means you can only fire twice that turn, using your free action to reload.
        Also of note, how much ammo weighs and how much the characters are hauling around. Sure, Encumbrance is only important when dramatically important, but it still matters.
        Honestly, you should be more bothered by the idea of a musket line reloading while they fall back.
        I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

        Comment


        • ogbendog
          ogbendog commented
          Editing a comment
          You can reload a weapon with a clip once per action as a free action.
          Under RAW, you can fire at ROF4 and empty a 20 round clip and reload as a free action, and do that 3 times in a round (at -4 for MAP)

      • #5
        The current rules create a variety of scenario which are either (IMO) unrealistic, unfun or unbalanced.

        A bowman cannot shoot more than one arrow per turn (except in one specific situation which is unlikely to occurr outside the first round of combat)

        As mentionned above, the only balance mechanic of 3RB and ROF weapons is striclty enforcing encumbrance for ammo clips. I find it much less fun and much more tedious than just having to suffer a -2 MAP once in a while.

        And more, but I'm writing on my phone and will continue when I have access to my PC.

        Comment


        • Jounichi
          Jounichi commented
          Editing a comment
          That's the advantage of modern weaponry. Then again, bows and arrows are silent.

        • Erling
          Erling commented
          Editing a comment
          I agree. Ammo capacity was a minor factor in SWDE, in SWADE it's merely a formality.

        • ogbendog
          ogbendog commented
          Editing a comment
          You can reload an arrow once per action as a free action. Page 105

      • #6
        Ammo Capacity is still a Factor. especially since spending 3 actions worth of full auto fire will literally eat your entire magazine. allowing you to merely unload your next magazine the following round, except, when you have to account for the weight of your magazines, the weight of any other weapons and armor you are carrying, the weight of the gear inside your pack, the weight of any loot your are hauling, and the weight of any money you are carrying. which outside of a very high tech sci fi game where you can store money electronically, store laser ammunition in the form of batteries and play an android character that doesn't need to worry about carrying a bedroll, soap or rations and doesn't need to worry about wearing environmental protection gear, you will be carrying a lot of stuff. but that would be an example of a character literally abusing the setting to game the system and minimize the weight they are carrying.

        Comment


        • Deskepticon
          Deskepticon commented
          Editing a comment
          Ilina_Young A couple things...

          Knick-knacks aren't inherently tied to encumbrance mechanic.
          Originally posted by SotGH, Simple Encumbrance
          Knick-knacks are usually ignored for the purposes of encumbrance, although the Game Master can make exceptions if they wish. However a knick-knack that weighs as much as one or more major items should be very valuable, and could perhaps be sacrificed for a +4 bonus to a Trick, Persuasion or Streetwise roll.
          Knick-knacks are the currency in SotGH. Basically, the setting eschews a coin economy for a barter economy, with knick-knacks (some of which can be junk, like broken pottery) having a subjective value to goblins.

          There's a rule that you can "invoke" a knick-knack to cause a narrative or mechanic benefit, destroying it in the process (the equivalent of throwing a handful of coins on the ground to cause a peasant-panic).

          You only start the game with knick-knacks equal to half your Strength +2 (Might Makes Right setting rule) as that represents your character bullying and stealing from others. But during play knick-knacks need to be acquired in the same way any other setting handles money (found, awarded, or stolen).

        • dentris
          dentris commented
          Editing a comment
          But mostly stolen

        • ogbendog
          ogbendog commented
          Editing a comment
          ammo capacity isn't a factor. It's free to reload a clip. If I have a 1911 and you have a glock, the fact that your wpn carries 17 rounds and mine carries 7 makes no difference to how much lead we can throw at each other

      • #7
        Originally posted by dentris View Post
        A bowman cannot shoot more than one arrow per turn (except in one specific situation which is unlikely to occurr outside the first round of combat)
        As I read the rules for reloading, they say you can only reload as a free action, once per action, not per turn. Since a character may take up to three actions, with multi-action penalties, a bowman could fire three arrows a turn, though at –4 for each shot.

        Comment


        • ZenFox42
          ZenFox42 commented
          Editing a comment
          Originally posted by Deskepticon
          For example, can you slide out a revolver's cyclinder, pop in 3 rounds, slide it back in and fire just once (avoiding the MAP)?
          Deskepticon, that would be a great question to ask in the Official Rules forum, once it re-opens.
          Last edited by ZenFox42; 12-10-2018, 01:56 PM.

        • mattprice516
          mattprice516 commented
          Editing a comment
          Ideally the clarification could be added to SWADE before the printing instead of having to ask in the Official Rules forum.

        • ogbendog
          ogbendog commented
          Editing a comment
          That makes sense for bows. But you can also do the same thing with a revolover. Shoot a bullet, reload. As long as you don't run out of ammo

      • #8
        I have a really hard time imagining how this works with revolvers. One bullet, once per action, as a free action - so is that 3 per turn, but only if I take multiple actions? What if I decide to spend an action on reloading instead of doing it as a free action - can I reload the whole chamber?

        Comment


        • Jounichi
          Jounichi commented
          Editing a comment
          In theory, you could spend an action to put another bullet in (one for the normal free action, and another for the action). Or, you could do any number of other things. Like roll for a Test, Support an ally, or run for better positioning and/or cover.

        • dentris
          dentris commented
          Editing a comment
          That's another example of the weirdness of the new rule.

          As written, it's better to open the cylinder of a revolver, load one bullet, close the cylinder shoot one bullet, open the cylinderl a second time, load a second bullet, close the cylinder and shoot the second bullet, then open, load, close and shoot a third time. I am aware a case can be made that all three bullets are loaded at the same time, then three shots, but wouldn't it be better to just reload the whole cylinder, then shoot, which is impossible under the current rule unless you spend 2 rounds reloading while insulting opponents and advising allies to pass the time.

        • Jounichi
          Jounichi commented
          Editing a comment
          That would depend on overall die types and which bonuses you may or may not have to offset the MAP. Heck, it takes a free hand to reload so you can't Two-Gun Kid it. Personally, I like the idea of getting off some quick shots and then reload from behind cover while yukking it up. Or offering up encouragement. Or diving for new cover in case your current one is shot to hell.

      • #9
        I've been thinking the last few days, and I'll probably add a houserule. It might not be as fast than "free action reload", but I feel it is much more realistic and intuitive while staying simple enough.

        Reloading a ranged weapon takes an action. Ranged weapons may also have the following abilities:

        Swift Loading (for bows and the like): Reloading this weapon is a free action, but only once per action.

        Manual Loading (for revolvers and some shotguns): You may only reload one bullet at a time, each time taking an action.

        Slow Loading X (for early firearm) : In order to reload the weapon, the reload action must be taken a number of rounds equal to X.


        You can then create a few additional gear, like the revolver speed loader that ignores the Manual Loading ability.

        Also, add the following Edge:

        Quick Loader
        Req: Novice, Agility d8+, Atheltics d6+
        Select one of the following effect:
        1.When reloading a Manual Loading weapon, the character triples the number of Shots reloaded with each actions.
        2. When reloading a Slow Loading weapon, reduce the number of turns necessary by 1.
        3. When reloading any other ranged weapons, treat them as if they had the Swift Loading ability.
        This Edge may be taken more than once, each time selecting a different effect.


        (I'm wondering if all three effects could be gained at the same time, but I worry it might be too strong)

        Comment


        • ZenFox42
          ZenFox42 commented
          Editing a comment
          Dentris - where would weapons with "clips" fall in your scheme? Free Action, or "normal" Action?

        • dentris
          dentris commented
          Editing a comment
          Normal action, unless the weapon is specifically designed to be reloaded quickly. I'm not a gun expert, but the act of releasing a clip, then insert a new one seems comparable to aiming and pulling the trigger.

      • #10
        Ok, with the adjustments and errata, I am satisfied some reloads are free (like an arrow), and others take an action.

        I am not sure about the Agility roll that can allow you to reload anything for free. It works since agile characters can be expected to reload faster, but I am afraid it might slow down combat. I think an edge would be much more effective.

        Thoughts?

        Comment


        • #11
          I agree than an Edge would be a tidy way to model shooters so highly trained that they can fire a pump-action faster than a semi-auto variant of the same weapon. Call it "Fast Hands", require Agility and Shooting (probably d6+; maybe d6+ and d8+ respectively), and get automatic success on "chambering, or cocking" a round and a +2 on any other Agility rolls to reload a weapon.

          I do like that Reload is back to being Actions instead of Turns. It really lets players feel the panic.
          I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

          Comment


          • DoctorBoson
            DoctorBoson commented
            Editing a comment
            I'm not a big fan of super-speed reloading of muskets and crossbows, to be honest. It felt more appropriate in rounds instead.

            Still not thrilled with the way reloading works right now. The way it was laid out before, where reloading was a free action for weapons like bows and reloading a clip/magazine was a normal action, was much more true to life and actually made magazine sizes mean something. Now they really don't; I think the old rule handled that much better.

          • dentris
            dentris commented
            Editing a comment
            It would work if the number of actions required to reload a musket would take into consideration the fact you now have the potential of three actions per round. If the musket needed, for example, 6 actions to reload, that would be mostly the same as having to reload over 2 rounds, while not being able to do anything else than free actions.

        • #12
          Could someone help me out with how reloading revolvers works in the new rules? From what I can tell, for every shot you take, you can roll agility to reload 1 bullet in a turn. If you fan the hammer though, how does reloading work at that point with a completely empty revolver? If you spend the next turn reloading is that 3 reloads for free plus 3 agility rolls to try to reload more bullets? Also are the agility rolls affected by the multi-action penalty?

          Comment


          • #13
            Yeah, the new reloading rules, as written, make it sound as if you can multi-action reload and fire a musket faster than you can reload a revolver.

            I'm not sure why they're clinging so hard to reloading being a free action. Clint had fantastic reloading rules for Savage Worlds that unfortunately never made it into the Core Rules. The short version: reloading a single shot of ammo can be done as a free action for any weapon, and reloading more than one shot in a weapon can be done as an action (up to half Agility in ammo); small rounds (like bullets) or tricky rounds required an Agility roll either way. Magazines, clips, revolver speed loaders, etc, can be reloaded as an action.

            These work well. The only thing you'd have to do to is adjust these rules so that bows can be reloaded as a free action. Maybe something like:

            "Characters can load up to half their Agility die in shots as a free action per round (these can be done all at once or between shots, depending on the weapon). If the weapon/ammunition is unwieldy or difficult to load (such as loading bullets into a revolver, or shells into a shotgun), this becomes an action and requires an Athletics roll to load successfully. Loading magazines, clips, or speed loaders takes an action.
            "Reloading antique weapons works as normal."

            To be clear, I much preferred the previous rules of "number of rounds equal to Reload score" over "number of actions;" it was much more true-to-life and emphasizes positioning much more, which is extremely important for crossbow and black powder warriors. It also provides a real reason for black powder characters to have a large number of pistols on his person, instead of having one pistol that he reloads every other round.
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            • #14
              Front line combat soldiers in the Napoleonic Wars could hammer out 6 shots in a minute. It was an insane rate of fire in that day, and one of the reasons everyone had to take the British Army seriously.
              With these Reloading rules, they can do that. The shot will be at -2.
              Most people would only use one action per turn, so they'd need two turns to reload plus a turn to Aim and a fourth turn to fire. That's four rounds per shot for normal people, a 2.5 shots per minute rate of fire.
              Remove the Aim action and it's at three shots per minute.
              I would argue that these are the most realistic black powder reloading rules Savage Worlds has had.
              My only complaint is moving and reloading, but it's doable (though I'd require an Agility roll, because that makes it a lot harder).

              Revolvers have a wide variety of reloading techniques: replacing pre-loaded cylinders, loading single rounds through a loading gate, and a rear-loading swing-out or break-action cylinder are the most historically common. That's a lot of different loading styles to try and cover with a general rule set.
              You can generally reload a single bullet as a free action, or a speed loader (or replacement cylinder) as a free action. Speed loaders for revolvers are generally in semi-circlular "half moon" shape (three rounds) or in a circular "full moon" shape (six rounds) that holds the bullets aligned with the cylinder.

              As someone that learned how to speed load a rifle magazine, you can change magazines in less than a second without changing your aiming posture. That sounds like a free action to me.
              Last edited by ValhallaGH; 01-03-2019, 10:55 PM. Reason: Corrected numbers; I has misremembered my source.
              I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

              Comment


              • ValhallaGH
                ValhallaGH commented
                Editing a comment
                wmarshal Yeah, it does. I'm okay with that.

                Buzzerker Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. The big advantage of larger magazines is that you're only carrying so many mags, and that doesn't change much as their capacity changes. If you've got two loaded magazines and 35 foes then you're really hoping that each magazine has at least 18 rounds. The only difference is when talking about machine guns or weapons with fewer than eight shots; the former chews through ammo at an insane rate and the latter runs out quickly enough that you've got to reload nearly constantly.

              • Buzzerker
                Buzzerker commented
                Editing a comment
                Well ****, never thought I'd find a fellow vet in a RPG forum

              • Erling
                Erling commented
                Editing a comment
                Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
                Front line combat soldiers in the Napoleonic Wars could hammer out 10 shots in a minute. It was an insane rate of fire in that day, and one of the reasons everyone had to take the British Army seriously.
                Proof link, please? I've heard about 5 shots per minute and even saw it at reenactment. But 10 shots?! Sounds impossible.

            • #15
              I was a fan of reduced reload times from the start. Tracking ammo took some effort, and for many weapons, it was rarely relevant anyways (a -2 penalty on the 7th attack in a combat). The v2 rules add a bit more complexity, but make ammo relevant for the handful of weapons where it should matter (such as double barrel shotguns). That sounds like a good compromise to me.

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