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  • [SWAG] Improved Wealth and Token system.

    I put together my first SWAG offering, the Improved Wealth and Token System.
    https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ealth+improved

    It goes along a different path than the expanded wealth system, but the two are largely compatible.

    The purpose of the product is to adapt the wealth system to work as an abstract system, while still retaining some form of 'currency' that lets players make meaningful decisions and receive tangible rewards. It does this by introducing Tokens, which replace the standard "increase wealth die" rewards. They represent units of cash that can be traded in for bonuses on wealth rolls and other rolls where cash is persuasive. They also serve as "units" of cash for purposes of gambling, bribes, etc.

    Overall its designed to take the rules light system of wealth, and add just a little bit of weight back to give players some meaningful choices without resorting to bean-counting.

    Feedback, is always appreciated.

  • #2
    Gloves Off Review

    This document is a minor improvement to the Wealth system presented in the core Savage Worlds rulebook. The only real difference is the inclusion of Tokens for tracking rewards, which can be spent to add a bonus to your Wealth roll. Despite the document claiming that Tokens represent an "undefined" value, they certainly represent an approximate value, since the richer you are, the more Tokens you need to impact your Wealth roll.

    The author missed an opportunity to remark on how Tokens should be rewarded to players, since great rewards would ostensibly be worth more than one Token.

    Tokens can be spent in lieu of a cash during certain skill rolls, such as when you want to use bribery as part of a Persuasion roll, or betting a Token or two when Gambling.

    Tokens can also be exchanged to increase your Wealth die, but the formula is both needlessly complex and so poorly written that even after reading it a half dozen times, I still don't know what the exchange rate is.

    * * *
    On a more general note, the document sells for 1.99USD, but it is hardly worth that price. The overall concept is one that players have discussed before, both on this forum and elsewhere, and offered to the community free of charge. The document is little more than a pig in lipstick.

    And what a pig it is! Seemingly no effort has been made to proofread the document before it was uploaded. Numerous grammatical errors are overshadowed by the lack of proper capitalization on game terms. Sure, that's a minor nitpick, but it's like buying a brand new 4k TV to discover it has one dead pixel. It's easy to ignore, but it's still a broken product.

    I cannot recommend this product for purchase. Not at the asking price. I only got the Sample, but I think it's the entire document. I suggest the author look into that, as well as fix/update the document and perhaps charge a more reasonable price.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post
      Gloves Off Review

      This document is a minor improvement to the Wealth system presented in the core Savage Worlds rulebook. The only real difference is the inclusion of Tokens for tracking rewards, which can be spent to add a bonus to your Wealth roll. Despite the document claiming that Tokens represent an "undefined" value, they certainly represent an approximate value, since the richer you are, the more Tokens you need to impact your Wealth roll.

      The author missed an opportunity to remark on how Tokens should be rewarded to players, since great rewards would ostensibly be worth more than one Token.

      Tokens can be spent in lieu of a cash during certain skill rolls, such as when you want to use bribery as part of a Persuasion roll, or betting a Token or two when Gambling.

      Tokens can also be exchanged to increase your Wealth die, but the formula is both needlessly complex and so poorly written that even after reading it a half dozen times, I still don't know what the exchange rate is.

      * * *
      On a more general note, the document sells for 1.99USD, but it is hardly worth that price. The overall concept is one that players have discussed before, both on this forum and elsewhere, and offered to the community free of charge. The document is little more than a pig in lipstick.

      And what a pig it is! Seemingly no effort has been made to proofread the document before it was uploaded. Numerous grammatical errors are overshadowed by the lack of proper capitalization on game terms. Sure, that's a minor nitpick, but it's like buying a brand new 4k TV to discover it has one dead pixel. It's easy to ignore, but it's still a broken product.

      I cannot recommend this product for purchase. Not at the asking price. I only got the Sample, but I think it's the entire document. I suggest the author look into that, as well as fix/update the document and perhaps charge a more reasonable price.
      Thank you for your feedback! It took me a bit to get to this as the bottom part felt personal and was hard for me to read.

      I will work on clarifying the wealth improvement section.

      I do agree that the basic concept of tokens for a wealth bonus is a minor improvement. However, I feel as if I added more weight to tokens than just bonus to wealth rolls, obviously your opinion differs. The tokens are there to add a bit more economic weight to the wealth system. The basic wealth system works well for when money simply doesn't matter at all in the game, and you just need to know if you can afford something or not. By adding tokens, you are shifting the system to be used when money is less important, but the economy is still important to the game. For example, a game of Deadlands Noir where money is supposed to be very tight all the time, the basic wealth system won't capture the right feel. Ideally wealth tokens will.

      I did call tokens "undefined" because while there is a relative stability of them from the abstract wealth system viewpoint, there is not an approximate dollar amount that tokens are equivalent to. The primary reason is that bonuses and penalties for the wealth system are exponential with each extra point of penalty marking a doubling of cost. This means that the worth of +1 to the roll varies dramatically based on what you are trying to buy. I kept token growth linear just to keep wealth tokens relative to high level incomes, but this means that the tokens vary more than the system might suggest. So, they are a "unit" of currency, and for game terms where "units" are useful, such as gambling, offering bribes, etc. They can be used in lieu of a dollar amount, that dollar amount is not actually fixed. You can attempt some math to figure out an average dollar amount if you wish, however I caution that doing so will most likely introduce arguments at the table over something that doesn't matter.

      I agree that wealth tokens as rewards needs to be fleshed out more. In the end though, it's going to end up being a lot like awarding bennies. It will be up to the GM to get a feel for the players and how they spend their tokens to determine how many he wants to give out.

      Using Tokens for wealth growth. There were two parts. Current wealth, default wealth.

      For current wealth, trade in tokens equal to half the next die level, at the next level's exchange rate. If your current wealth is D6, simply trade enough tokens to get a +4 at the D8 exchange rate (2 to +1, or 8 Tokens). Do that, and your current wealth becomes a D8.

      For default wealth, it is a purchase roll with a penalty equal to the next default wealth level die type. The only difference is tokens cannot be spent after the roll to turn a failure into a success. So, if your default wealth level is D6, you need to make a purchase roll at -8 to gain a default wealth level, spending tokens as normal according to your current wealth level.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Robert4818 View Post

        Thank you for your feedback! It took me a bit to get to this as the bottom part felt personal and was hard for me to read.
        You're welcome. I was careful not to make the review a personal attack, and I think objectively it wasn't. It was a critical look at a product from a customer's perspective. I could have pulled some punches, and I could have definitely mentioned the things I liked, but to be completely honest, I was frustrated---maybe even angry---by the time I finished reading it. There was no single focus for that frustration, but rather a culmination of several little things, from the grammer and punctuation errors to the "rehashed" concept to the price point (which not only felt too high for what is being offered, but also insulting because of the other issues).

        I do agree that the basic concept of tokens for a wealth bonus is a minor improvement. However, I feel as if I added more weight to tokens than just bonus to wealth rolls, obviously your opinion differs.
        No, actually my opinion doesn't differ.
        I think you succeeded at the stated goal of maintaining the feel of an economy, which the core Wealth system does indeed seem to strip away. I think it's important to note that my previous post was intended to be a review of a product; not a critique of the actual mechanics being presented. I like what you did! I just can't, in good conscious, ask anyone to pay money for it. No offense.

        I did call tokens "undefined" because while there is a relative stability of them from the abstract wealth system viewpoint, there is not an approximate dollar amount that tokens are equivalent to. The primary reason is that bonuses and penalties for the wealth system are exponential with each extra point of penalty marking a doubling of cost.
        Precisely!
        A +1 bonus is exponentially better at a higher Wealth die, so each Token does not simply represent a +1 bonus. That would make Rewards for Rich people exponentially better. I 100% agree with the method you chose for obtaining a bonus at a higher Wealth die. That was not the criticism. The criticism was the imprecise language used by referring to Tokens as "undefined" units of wealth. It sends an unclear messege as to their actual value. A single Token does, in fact, represent an "approximate" value, clearly demonstrated by the rules. That value is still abstract, with a considerable range attached, but it definitely exists somewhere on a scale.

        I think the document would benefit from taking the time to explain precisely how a single Token functions at each Wealth level. There is certainly a logarithmic scale involved. One Token equals a +1 bonus at d6 Wealth, twice as much (+2) at d4, half as much at d8, and one-quarter the value at d12. It's difficult to argue that that does not support a concept of "approximate" value.

        It's worth noting that that approximation also fluctuates exponentially; 2 Tokens does not equal 1+1 Tokens; 4 Tokens does not equal 1+1+1+1 Tokens, nor even 2+2 Tokens. Regardless, a single Token is still representive of a somewhat static price range (appropriate to the setting's economy).

        You can attempt some math to figure out an average dollar amount if you wish...
        Oh, god, no!! That would be futile anyway. Not only would it defeat the purpose of using an abstract system, but the values would never properly align, as I demonstrated above.

        I agree that wealth tokens as rewards needs to be fleshed out more. In the end though, it's going to end up being a lot like awarding bennies. It will be up to the GM to get a feel for the players and how they spend their tokens to determine how many he wants to give out.
        You may have misunderstood me. I was not suggesting a guideline for what tasks would be worth if completed, only that greater rewards should be represented by more Wealth Tokens. This can be as short as a single sentence included with the explanation of Token values.

        Using Tokens for wealth growth. There were two parts. Current wealth, default wealth.

        For current wealth, trade in tokens equal to half the next die level, at the next level's exchange rate. If your current wealth is D6, simply trade enough tokens to get a +4 at the D8 exchange rate (2 to +1, or 8 Tokens). Do that, and your current wealth becomes a D8.
        Ah, okay! See, this example would have gone a long to explaining things. I now also understand how to trade-in a Wealth die to gain Tokens.

        But since the number of Tokens spent/gained are always static, wouldn't it just be easier to create two new columns on the Wealth Table? The formulas are confusing and ultimately unnecessary.

        For default wealth, it is a purchase roll with a penalty equal to the next default wealth level die type. The only difference is tokens cannot be spent after the roll to turn a failure into a success. So, if your default wealth level is D6, you need to make a purchase roll at -8 to gain a default wealth level, spending tokens as normal according to your current wealth level.
        How does this affect Edges/Hindrances?

        If a person with Poverty (Default Wealth d4) wants to improve their DW to d6, they must make a Wealth roll at -6. They can spend 3 Tokens to mitigate the penalty (at their Current Wealth's rate of +2 per Token) and permanently increase their net worth. Do they still have Poverty? Does their DW eventually drop if they don't "buy off" the Hindrance? If a character increases from d6 to d8, do they gain the Rich Edge? If not, does picking up Rich then give them a DW of d10?

        What about justifications for purchasing an Edge like Rich? Can a character just burn 8 Tokens and spend an Advance instead?

        edit
        I just realized something.
        As written, a character can more easily increase their Default Wealth if they drop their Current Wealth. Going from DW d10 to d12 requires a Wealth roll at -12. If the character's Current Wealth was d10, they'd need **drum roll** 36 Tokens to eliminate the penalty. At CW d4 they'd only need 6.
        Last edited by Deskepticon; 02-01-2020, 12:46 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post

          You're welcome. I was careful not to make the review a personal attack, and I think objectively it wasn't. It was a critical look at a product from a customer's perspective. I could have pulled some punches, and I could have definitely mentioned the things I liked, but to be completely honest, I was frustrated---maybe even angry---by the time I finished reading it. There was no single focus for that frustration, but rather a culmination of several little things, from the grammer and punctuation errors to the "rehashed" concept to the price point (which not only felt too high for what is being offered, but also insulting because of the other issues).



          No, actually my opinion doesn't differ.
          I think you succeeded at the stated goal of maintaining the feel of an economy, which the core Wealth system does indeed seem to strip away. I think it's important to note that my previous post was intended to be a review of a product; not a critique of the actual mechanics being presented. I like what you did! I just can't, in good conscious, ask anyone to pay money for it. No offense.



          Precisely!
          A +1 bonus is exponentially better at a higher Wealth die, so each Token does not simply represent a +1 bonus. That would make Rewards for Rich people exponentially better. I 100% agree with the method you chose for obtaining a bonus at a higher Wealth die. That was not the criticism. The criticism was the imprecise language used by referring to Tokens as "undefined" units of wealth. It sends an unclear messege as to their actual value. A single Token does, in fact, represent an "approximate" value, clearly demonstrated by the rules. That value is still abstract, with a considerable range attached, but it definitely exists somewhere on a scale.

          I think the document would benefit from taking the time to explain precisely how a single Token functions at each Wealth level. There is certainly a logarithmic scale involved. One Token equals a +1 bonus at d6 Wealth, twice as much (+2) at d4, half as much at d8, and one-quarter the value at d12. It's difficult to argue that that does not support a concept of "approximate" value.

          It's worth noting that that approximation also fluctuates exponentially; 2 Tokens does not equal 1+1 Tokens; 4 Tokens does not equal 1+1+1+1 Tokens, nor even 2+2 Tokens. Regardless, a single Token is still representive of a somewhat static price range (appropriate to the setting's economy).



          Oh, god, no!! That would be futile anyway. Not only would it defeat the purpose of using an abstract system, but the values would never properly align, as I demonstrated above.



          You may have misunderstood me. I was not suggesting a guideline for what tasks would be worth if completed, only that greater rewards should be represented by more Wealth Tokens. This can be as short as a single sentence included with the explanation of Token values.



          Ah, okay! See, this example would have gone a long to explaining things. I now also understand how to trade-in a Wealth die to gain Tokens.

          But since the number of Tokens spent/gained are always static, wouldn't it just be easier to create two new columns on the Wealth Table? The formulas are confusing and ultimately unnecessary.



          How does this affect Edges/Hindrances?

          If a person with Poverty (Default Wealth d4) wants to improve their DW to d6, they must make a Wealth roll at -6. They can spend 3 Tokens to mitigate the penalty (at their Current Wealth's rate of +2 per Token) and permanently increase their net worth. Do they still have Poverty? Does their DW eventually drop if they don't "buy off" the Hindrance? If a character increases from d6 to d8, do they gain the Rich Edge? If not, does picking up Rich then give them a DW of d10?

          What about justifications for purchasing an Edge like Rich? Can a character just burn 8 Tokens and spend an Advance instead?

          edit
          I just realized something.
          As written, a character can more easily increase their Default Wealth if they drop their Current Wealth. Going from DW d10 to d12 requires a Wealth roll at -12. If the character's Current Wealth was d10, they'd need **drum roll** 36 Tokens to eliminate the penalty. At CW d4 they'd only need 6.
          I have updated the product with your feedback.

          Just a note on your edit. Since the roll to increase default wealth is a purchase roll, price modifiers and automatic failures come into effect. A D4 cannot purchase anything with a modifier worse than -5, so that scenario becomes impossible.

          I've not changed the price. I feel that $2 is a fair price, as always YMMV. Though to be honest, this was largely an experimental project for me. I put this system together to help me with a game I'm working on. I wanted to share it, and decided to try it out with SWAG and see how the process went. This has been a new experience for me from the ground up, and I'm certain this has that feel to it. All in all, I am happy with the process, and even the harsh criticism, though if I go for anything larger (say a setting of some sort) I'll need to learn Scribd/InDesign or something beyond Word/google Docs.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Robert4818 View Post
            Just a note on your edit. Since the roll to increase default wealth is a purchase roll, price modifiers and automatic failures come into effect. A D4 cannot purchase anything with a modifier worse than -5, so that scenario becomes impossible.
            Is that from the new update? Because the version I have literally says, "Wealth modifiers are not used on this roll." It's the last sentence under Tokens For Improving Wealth.

            I've not changed the price. I feel that $2 is a fair price, as always YMMV.
            That's fine. I'm not going to fight you on it.
            Two dollars isn't a lot of money, true, but at that price I would have liked to see more than just a page and a half of content. I hope there's no hard feelings, even though I was a bit of a jerk. I do wish you luck.

            Cheers!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post

              Is that from the new update? Because the version I have literally says, "Wealth modifiers are not used on this roll." It's the last sentence under Tokens For Improving Wealth.



              That's fine. I'm not going to fight you on it.
              Two dollars isn't a lot of money, true, but at that price I would have liked to see more than just a page and a half of content. I hope there's no hard feelings, even though I was a bit of a jerk. I do wish you luck.

              Cheers!
              Not quite, though I did clarify. The original said wealth modifiers (the +3 to a D12 for merely having a D12) did not apply. The price limiters would, but to be honest I didn't even think of that being an issue until you brought it up. Though as you said the original rules were not too clearly written, so I've cleaned it up. (In addition, I called it a wealth roll instead of a purchase roll). Technically, I see the roll to upgrade default wealth as something of a "risky investment" concept. One that if it works you get more wealth, and if not, you just blew alot of cash, which is probably why I worded it like I did. At the end, I decided to clarify it and say it is a purchase attempt, as its still a fairly daunting roll, especially since you can't use tokens after the roll to bump it up to a success.

              To be fair, I could have added alot more to the system, but many of the things (like lifestyles) are covered by expanded wealth. I didn't want it to feel like I was stealing from that product, nor do I feel like I was trying to outright compete with that one. Indeed, I feel that the two systems, with a small bit of adjustment, are able to work together to form a complete wealth system. This is most easily done by choosing one of the system's price modifiers, and running together. Certain things (like Gambling) would need one chosen over the other, but overall they would work well together. I see mine as a partial companion to the other.

              And, your feedback was very helpful. Perhaps next time leave out remarks like "piggy"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Robert4818 View Post

                Not quite, though I did clarify. The original said wealth modifiers (the +3 to a D12 for merely having a D12) did not apply. The price limiters would, but to be honest I didn't even think of that being an issue until you brought it up.
                Yeah, I get that Prices Limits would still be a factor. My question in the previous post was because you said Price Modifiers would also count.
                edit Though looking back, this is a mistake on my part, as I read it to mean "Wealth Modifier."

                "Since the roll to increase default wealth is a purchase roll, price modifiers and automatic failures come into effect. A D4 cannot purchase anything with a modifier worse than -5, so that scenario becomes impossible."


                But this brings a completely different issue to light!

                You said it would be impossible for a character at Current Wealth d4 to raise their Default Wealth from d10 to d12 because of the inherent Price Modifier Limits at d4. In my example, though, the character is spending tokens to eliminate the modifer. What you seem to be suggesting now is that automatic failure is determined BEFORE tokens are spend, and that no amount of tokens can ever change that.

                So a person with d4 Wealth looking to make a $3000 purchase faces a -5 penalty and would automatically fail. Even if they spent three Wealth Tokens, which would potentially net them a +1 bonus, that's not possible because the pre-Token modifier already determined they failed.

                Is that what you're saying?
                I certainly hope not, because this would mean a poor character (both DW and CW at d4) would never raise to d6 because the -6 penalty exceeds the Price Limit. This also completely invalidates the entire concept of Tokens representing "units of cash." To the clear, this is a problem with the formula you are using to Increase Default Wealth. The system holds up very well otherwise. Please don't break it.

                Though as you said the original rules were not too clearly written, so I've cleaned it up. (In addition, I called it a wealth roll instead of a purchase roll). Technically, I see the roll to upgrade default wealth as something of a "risky investment" concept. One that if it works you get more wealth, and if not, you just blew alot of cash, which is probably why I worded it like I did. At the end, I decided to clarify it and say it is a purchase attempt, as its still a fairly daunting roll, especially since you can't use tokens after the roll to bump it up to a success.
                I'm a bit confused on why you fretted over such wording to begin with. It's simplier to just refer to the roll as a game term: Wealth roll (with a capital 'w'). Just like a Soak roll, or Fighting roll. The details don't matter at that point.

                This harkens back to my initial criticism on game term capitization. Even though it may seem minor or contrite, it does matter. If I saw a rule that said, "The character adds +1 to their fighting roll," I would wonder if it meant the Fighting skill roll or any roll used in a fight. Proper capitalization of game terms goes miles in clarifying the intent of a rule.

                To be fair, I could have added alot more to the system, but many of the things (like lifestyles) are covered by expanded wealth. I didn't want it to feel like I was stealing from that product, nor do I feel like I was trying to outright compete with that one. Indeed, I feel that the two systems, with a small bit of adjustment, are able to work together to form a complete wealth system.
                ... I see mine as a partial companion to the other.
                Man, you aren't doing yourself any favors here.
                You practically just admitted your product is a half-measure. Don't do that! Expanded Wealth doesn't "own" the idea of Lifestyles or anything else, so you can't technically steal it (just like you didn't "steal" the idea of Wealth Tokens, despite people talking about it since SWADE first launched... and even earlier!). It's like you're trying to sell me a bicycle, but telling me to go to your competitor to buy the chain. Sure, the thing rolls, and it beats the heck outta walking, but it won't be climbing any hills. If that's the case, I'm better off renting a scooter, where I can do the 'legwork' myself.
                (Catch my drift? )

                The point is, if you find yourself viewing your product as a companion to something else, that's your clue that you need to take what you like from that other product, alter it enough to integrate it to your system, and make a complete, stand-alone document. A few custom Edges and Hindrances couldn't hurt either... the "windfall" mechanics, where a character can get Tokens back on a raise, would make an excellent Edge!

                Doing this doesn't diminish or invalidate that other product, it simply says, "Here's another option. All the work has been done for you. Enjoy!"

                _____

                I'm glad you found my previous replies helpful. Hope these are as well.
                Cheers!
                Last edited by Deskepticon; 02-03-2020, 09:01 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post

                  Yeah, I get that Prices Limits would still be a factor. My question in the previous post was because you said Price Modifiers would also count.
                  edit Though looking back, this is a mistake on my part, as I read it to mean "Wealth Modifier."

                  "Since the roll to increase default wealth is a purchase roll, price modifiers and automatic failures come into effect. A D4 cannot purchase anything with a modifier worse than -5, so that scenario becomes impossible."


                  But this brings a completely different issue to light!

                  You said it would be impossible for a character at Current Wealth d4 to raise their Default Wealth from d10 to d12 because of the inherent Price Modifier Limits at d4. In my example, though, the character is spending tokens to eliminate the modifer. What you seem to be suggesting now is that automatic failure is determined BEFORE tokens are spend, and that no amount of tokens can ever change that.

                  So a person with d4 Wealth looking to make a $3000 purchase faces a -5 penalty and would automatically fail. Even if they spent three Wealth Tokens, which would potentially net them a +1 bonus, that's not possible because the pre-Token modifier already determined they failed.

                  Is that what you're saying?
                  I certainly hope not, because this would mean a poor character (both DW and CW at d4) would never raise to d6 because the -6 penalty exceeds the Price Limit. This also completely invalidates the entire concept of Tokens representing "units of cash." To the clear, this is a problem with the formula you are using to Increase Default Wealth. The system holds up very well otherwise. Please don't break it.



                  I'm a bit confused on why you fretted over such wording to begin with. It's simplier to just refer to the roll as a game term: Wealth roll (with a capital 'w'). Just like a Soak roll, or Fighting roll. The details don't matter at that point.

                  This harkens back to my initial criticism on game term capitization. Even though it may seem minor or contrite, it does matter. If I saw a rule that said, "The character adds +1 to their fighting roll," I would wonder if it meant the Fighting skill roll or any roll used in a fight. Proper capitalization of game terms goes miles in clarifying the intent of a rule.



                  Man, you aren't doing yourself any favors here.
                  You practically just admitted your product is a half-measure. Don't do that! Expanded Wealth doesn't "own" the idea of Lifestyles or anything else, so you can't technically steal it (just like you didn't "steal" the idea of Wealth Tokens, despite people talking about it since SWADE first launched... and even earlier!). It's like you're trying to sell me a bicycle, but telling me to go to your competitor to buy the chain. Sure, the thing rolls, and it beats the heck outta walking, but it won't be climbing any hills. If that's the case, I'm better off renting a scooter, where I can do the 'legwork' myself.
                  (Catch my drift? )

                  The point is, if you find yourself viewing your product as a companion to something else, that's your clue that you need to take what you like from that other product, alter it enough to integrate it to your system, and make a complete, stand-alone document. A few custom Edges and Hindrances couldn't hurt either... the "windfall" mechanics, where a character can get Tokens back on a raise, would make an excellent Edge!

                  Doing this doesn't diminish or invalidate that other product, it simply says, "Here's another option. All the work has been done for you. Enjoy!"

                  _____

                  I'm glad you found my previous replies helpful. Hope these are as well.
                  Cheers!
                  I looked at the D4, and thought about it. I think perhaps I could better word stuff.

                  All modifiers and limits are based on CURRENT wealth. Default wealth only applies to where your Current wealth settles over time. In the case of a D4 default wealth, they cannot raise themselves up to a D6 default wealth until their current wealth reaches D6 and raises their auto-fail threshold. Being poor sucks.









                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Robert4818 View Post

                    I looked at the D4, and thought about it. I think perhaps I could better word stuff.

                    All modifiers and limits are based on CURRENT wealth. Default wealth only applies to where your Current wealth settles over time. In the case of a D4 default wealth, they cannot raise themselves up to a D6 default wealth until their current wealth reaches D6 and raises their auto-fail threshold. Being poor sucks.
                    Sure, that makes sense in a system without Wealth Tokens. But you do have Wealth Tokens, and my point is that changes things. Tokens can be exchanged for a Wealth die, and vice versa, so in many ways they are interchangable. What I don't understand is why they suddenly become useless once the Price Modifier hits an arbitrary number. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

                    Facing a -4 modifier at d4? No problem! Just spend two tokens and it's a straight Wealth roll. Whoops, it's -5! Sorry, you're SoL... it doesn't matter that you have a pile of fifteen tokens representing tens of thousands of dollars of stuff, you simply can't make good on that bill.

                    Anyway, I said what I needed to. It's a good foundation, but you still have to work out the kinks.

                    ______

                    I downloaded the sample/preview copy of Version 2 and I was immediately dismayed. Practically none of the grammar issues I mentioned were addressed, and some of the rewrites even added more. There's a formatting issue that causes the License Agreement box to get cut off. It appears that some paragraphs are written with a different font size (or maybe the spacing is off). The new mechanics for Losing Wealth are a welcome addition, but unfortunately the debt rules add yet another formula, this time completely divorced from the base mechanics, making them unintuitive. And the new card draw mechanics for Poverty turns it into at least a Major Hindrance now.

                    I really don't want to be mean, but there's a glaring lack of care and quality here that I can't ignore. It reads like a first draft, not a finished product.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post

                      Sure, that makes sense in a system without Wealth Tokens. But you do have Wealth Tokens, and my point is that changes things. Tokens can be exchanged for a Wealth die, and vice versa, so in many ways they are interchangable. What I don't understand is why they suddenly become useless once the Price Modifier hits an arbitrary number. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

                      Facing a -4 modifier at d4? No problem! Just spend two tokens and it's a straight Wealth roll. Whoops, it's -5! Sorry, you're SoL... it doesn't matter that you have a pile of fifteen tokens representing tens of thousands of dollars of stuff, you simply can't make good on that bill.

                      Anyway, I said what I needed to. It's a good foundation, but you still have to work out the kinks.

                      ______

                      I downloaded the sample/preview copy of Version 2 and I was immediately dismayed. Practically none of the grammar issues I mentioned were addressed, and some of the rewrites even added more. There's a formatting issue that causes the License Agreement box to get cut off. It appears that some paragraphs are written with a different font size (or maybe the spacing is off). The new mechanics for Losing Wealth are a welcome addition, but unfortunately the debt rules add yet another formula, this time completely divorced from the base mechanics, making them unintuitive. And the new card draw mechanics for Poverty turns it into at least a Major Hindrance now.

                      I really don't want to be mean, but there's a glaring lack of care and quality here that I can't ignore. It reads like a first draft, not a finished product.
                      I am not seeing the grammar issues you are seeing, nor does grammar check pick it up. So I, unfortunately do not see what you are talking about. (It's that second set of eyes issue).

                      Having said that, wealth levels and tokens are somewhat interchangeable, however, there's a good reason for the auto fail caps. Those caps are there because the tokens relative worth changes. Yes, the system treats them as equivalent in certain instances (gambling for example), but they really are relative to the current wealth level of the player. A d4 player gets +2 per token, while a d12 needs 4 tokens to get a +1. If you treat them as completely interchangeable, the most logical thing to do would be to convert wealth to tokens until you are at a D4, then use the 1 per +2 to automatically succeed at almost any roll. The caps are there to prevent that abuse.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Robert4818 View Post

                        I am not seeing the grammar issues you are seeing, nor does grammar check pick it up. So I, unfortunately do not see what you are talking about. (It's that second set of eyes issue).
                        Granted, I used "grammar" as a catch-all for the proofing errors. That's my bad. I PM'd you a list.

                        The caps are there to prevent that abuse.
                        But the caps also contradict your claim that Wealth Tokens represent unit of cash. You can bribe people or gamble with tokens, but you cannot buy things with them?

                        You have several different rules for how different things work, but the rules don't work together to make a coherent system. You may be too close to the forest to see the trees on this.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post

                          Granted, I used "grammar" as a catch-all for the proofing errors. That's my bad. I PM'd you a list.



                          But the caps also contradict your claim that Wealth Tokens represent unit of cash. You can bribe people or gamble with tokens, but you cannot buy things with them?

                          You have several different rules for how different things work, but the rules don't work together to make a coherent system. You may be too close to the forest to see the trees on this.
                          They do. There's a level of tradeoffs in the system. I honestly went back and forth on the tokens and cap issue. In the end I settled on the cap winning over raw tokens. The philosophy for the tokens is that $200 means more to Min Wage Joe than to Billionaire Gates. The tokens work within that idea that they supplement your wealth, not replace it.

                          This does lead to an oddity of tokens suddenly representing more cash on a wealth increase. Though I believe explaining the concept more may be warranted. Maybe a sidebar...
                          Last edited by Robert4818; 02-05-2020, 12:52 AM.

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                          • Deskepticon
                            Deskepticon commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Maybe I'm just seeing the whole thing differently. ::shrug::

                            If tokens ARE worth more at a higher Wealth die, then players can't split rewards evenly. It's like you've given all Rich people the Greedy Hindrance, but also force the other players to capitulate to them.

                            I liked that higher Wealth dice required more tokens to get a bonus and the d4 gets a double-helping because it normalized the value of a single token. The baseline is d6, for a +1 bonus. A d4 (which averages about 1 lower on a roll) get a +2, giving it same chance of success as a d6 if both spend a token. Likewise, a d8 (which averages about 1 higher than d6 on a roll) needs to spend two tokens (a +2 at baseline) for just a +1 bonus, meaning if d6 spent two tokens it have equal chance of success as the d8.

                            I found that to be simple and elegant, but then there's a weird limitations on how tokens can be used and funky formulas that net wildly disparate amounts of them.

                            Again, maybe I just don't really grasp what you're going for. That's my failing, not yours.

                            Good Luck!
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