[SWAG] ROBOTECH: Dynamic Missiles Questions

[KeglarZain]

Hi There!

I’m a new SWAG player and forum user. With a lot of question about the rules.

In the rules of Dynamic Missiles presented in Savage Robotech: Macross Saga states that the missiles are self-guided and do not require a roll to hit but it is enough with a roll to "Locate" the target and then -once already located the target- simply shoot the number of missiles you want and can.

But then later it is established that:

Missiles gain the Gang Up bonus when fired in groups, meaning a group of 5 or moremissiles will gain the full +4 bonus.

- This +4 bonus… What roll should be applied?.
.
Later the rules determine that you can try to evade a missile attack with an Evasion roll.

Missile attacks can be evaded by an Evasion (Maneuver roll gives -2 to be hit by missiles,-4 if significant cover ((buildings, canyon walls, etc.) are available),[…]

But, if they were a group of missiles fired...

- Does it count as one action to dodge all the missiles ?.

- Is a single roll made for all the volley or one for each missile?

It is also stated in the rules that:

If more than 10 missiles are fired at once, they are considered a swarm. Unlike a normal swarm, they can be damaged by normal weapons (if a successful strike is made. See stats above.) The swarm is dense enough that detonating the missile will detonate a number of additional missiles equal to the number of successes and raises in d4s. (So, a hit with a raise will detonate 2d4 missiles.)

I understand that this rule does not apply to volleys of 9 missiles or less (in which case no other missile explodes).

But later it’s said:

…or by shooting them down. The last is a tricky maneuver, missiles are small (Size -1,) and fast (Mach 3, -8 to hit,) so are hard to hit, but generally move close enough together destroying one is likely to wipe out the whole swarm.

- How is it possible that the shot will kill the whole swarm if it depends on the number of successes?.

- Or does each additional missile detonated destroy other D4 missiles?.

Finally:

- Is it possible to fire missiles against missiles?.

And in this case:

- Can the target missiles try to dodge them?.

Thank you all!

[Deskepticon]

Hi There!

Hi!
Welcome to the Forums.

I’m a new SWAG player and forum user. With a lot of question about the rules.

I don't have the access to the setting, but I think I can sufficiently answer your questions.

Also, do you mean new SWADE player (i.e. Savage Worlds Adventure Edition), or SWAG (SW Adventurer's Guild---the service for posting original "fan-made" content)?

In the rules of

Dynamic Missiles presented in Savage Robotech: Macross Saga states that the missiles are self-guided and do not require a roll to hit but it is enough with a roll to "Locate" the target and then -once already located the target- simply shoot the number of missiles you want and can.

But then later it is established that: [missiles benefit from gang up when fired in groups].


- This +4 bonus… What roll should be applied?.

The same roll used to fire the missiles (presumably Shooting). So if you want to fire 5 missiles as a group, you'd roll your Shooting skill +4 to "locate" the target and the missiles auto-lock-on.

At least that's how it looks from the quote you provided.

Note that the wording seems to imply you can also shoot 5 missiles as separate attacks (i.e., not as a group). This would be 5 separate Actions and 5 separate rolls... which isn't actually allowed by the SWADE rules; players are capped at 3 Action per turn.
.

Later the rules determine that you can try to evade a missile attack with an Evasion roll.


But, if they were a group of missiles fired...

- Does it count as one action to dodge all the missiles ?.

Yes.
All the missiles are being made as a single attack, so ALL the missiles can be Evaded as a single Action.

- Is a single roll made for all the volley or one for each missile?

If the volley was made "as a group": one roll.
If the missiles were fired individually, it would require one Evasion roll per missile.

- How is it possible that the shot will kill the whole swarm if it depends on the number of successes?.

The first quote seems to provide the rules (each success/raise destroys 1d4 other missiles). The second quote seems to allow for abstracted success. If a character facing a -9 penalty to attack manages to hit and destroy a missle, it's narratively awesome to have all the other missiles either explode or lose tracking and trail off.

In short, I don't know if an inconsistency exists. It just looks like two means to a single end.

- Or does each additional missile detonated destroy other D4 missiles?.

Not by the wording. It's 1d4 per each success and raise... not 1d4 per missile destroyed.

Besides, if it were 1d4 per missile destroyed, then the whole swarm gets whipped out anyway due to escalation.
e.g. - destroy one missile, 1d4 blow up... which now destroys xd4, where X=the result on the first d4.

Rather than needlessly rolling dice, it would be simpler to just say the whole swarm is destroyed.

Finally:

- Is it possible to fire missiles against missiles?.

And in this case:

- Can the target missiles try to dodge them?.

Thank you all!

1) Unknown. I would assume you can perform a missile-lock on another missile. It works in real life, why not Robotech?

2) Missiles are not characters so they can't benefit from the Evasion rules. Maybe if they had some sort of smart-chip, but then that would be an exception to the rule.

Hope this was helpful.

[Fraser]

Just an FYI thing for you Deskepticon, the Current Robotech Book has been updated to the Savage Worlds Adventurer Edition.
Uses Setting Rules of "Gritty Damage", and "Born To Be A Hero". And starts with 15 skill points

And the Mechs are Huge Literally....

Battloid Form
Size: 9 (huge), Handling: +0, Toughness: 18
(4) Heavy, Strength: d12+9

[KeglarZain]

A lot of Thanks, Deskepticon!

The truth is that your answers have been very helpful, because I was a little lost before so much doubt and so both players and I have a stable base to play without problems.

Also, do you mean new SWADE player (i.e. Savage Worlds Adventure Edition), or SWAG (SW Adventurer's Guild---the service for posting original "fan-made" content)?

Sorry!. SWADE, SWADE!. (nothing of SWAG).

My mistake. I still have problems with the acronyms of each thing.

All the missiles are being made as a single attack, so ALL the missiles can be Evaded as a single Action.

Okay. Sounds logic!.
The confusion came to me because in the SWADE Core its said:

“The enemy attempts to evade each missile separately by making a maneuvering roll at -4”.

But I guess that will be depending on the number of actions spent on launching the missiles (and it avoids us make many rolls!).

If the volley was made "as a group": one roll.
If the missiles were fired individually, it would require one Evasion roll per missile.

Ok too. A two simple problems two simple (and intuitives) solution. Great!.

The first quote seems to provide the rules (each success/raise destroys 1d4 other missiles). The second quote seems to allow for abstracted success. If a character facing a -9 penalty to attack manages to hit and destroy a missle, it's narratively awesome to have all the other missiles either explode or lose tracking and trail off.

In short, I don't know if an inconsistency exists. It just looks like two means to a single end.
- Or does each additional missile detonated destroy other D4 missiles?.
Not by the wording. It's 1d4 per each success and raise... not 1d4 per missile destroyed.

Besides, if it were 1d4 per missile destroyed, then the whole swarm gets whipped out anyway due to escalation.
e.g. - destroy one missile, 1d4 blow up... which now destroys xd4, where X=the result on the first d4.

Rather than needlessly rolling dice, it would be simpler to just say the whole swarm is destroyed.

I agree. And being systematic in my game sessions the clarification that you make about "It's 1d4 per each success" seems to me significant and definitive. I will apply that except if in very specific or exceptional cases that seems more appropriate the destruction of all the volley.

1. Unknown. Iwould assume you can perform a missile-lock on another missile. It works in real life, why not Robotech

I agree, but with the exception that I will comment at the end (about the +4 modifier question for the “Gang Up” missiles) that I still not have completely clear and that affects in a certain way this same question (see below).

2) Missiles are not characters so they can't benefit from the Evasion rules.

Okay. I like the answer. And more because we avoided having to make many rolls and make the battles eternal.

Now, again, I come back with the first question of all (the +4 modifier for “Gang up” Missiles) because I still have doubts.

The same roll used to fire the missiles (presumably Shooting). So if you want to fire 5 missiles as a group, you'd roll your Shooting skill +4 to "locate" the target and the missiles auto-lock-on.

At least that's how it looks from the quote you provided.

The Savage Robotech Manual establishes:

Note that no shooting or gunnery roll is needed, as these are self-guided. Once fired, they nonot require roll to hit but it is enough with a roll to "locate" the target and THEN -once already located the target- simply shoot the number of missiles you want and can.

And now I contribute part of the text in the same rule that had not previously put:

“Getting a lock is an opposed Electronics roll versus the target’s maneuvering skill (Riding, Driving, Piloting).“

Curiously it is very similar to how it does in the SWADE Core book for this same action ('Lock' target for fire missiles):

This action is an opposed Electronics roll versus the target’s maneuvering skill (Boating, Driving, or Piloting, as appropriate). Success gives the attacker a “short” lock and allows him to fire up to half the missiles his particular craft can fire at once. A raise is a more solid lock and allows him to fire all of them. (p79-“Missiles”).

But ... regardless of whether it's with Piloting (in this case) or Shooting, what I just do not understand is that in the text its said you first achieve this locking roll and THEN (only if you success) you decide the number of missiles you're going to shoot (which is what gives you the +1 to +4 depending on the number of missiles you decide to shoot but once you have achieved the “lock” roll).

It does not have much logic for me to apply to “lock” a modifier according to a number of missiles fired when in fact… You have not decided to shoot yet none! (and you can decide not to shoot any if you fail the roll).

Or… I am understanding the rule in the wrong way, and after achieving the “location” roll, is a second shooting required (gunnery new skill in Robotech case) for fire the missiles? .
In this last case I do not find much sense, because the fact of being self-guided would be more of a disadvantage than an advantage (making necessary two rolls –‘Lock’ and ‘Shooting’ for fire).

Thanks... And sorry for being so annoying!.

[Fraser]

Many of the Missile issues are ironed out on Page 60

DYNAMIC MISSILES (OPTIONAL)
Robotech is filled with situations where pilots dodge their way through dozens of guided
missiles. While the standard Savage Worlds rules can cover this, we recommend the
following Dynamic Missiles rules to better represent this situation.
All missiles in Robotech are guided unless otherwise noted. They must lock onto a target
before they can be fired.

They have the following stats:
Missile
Size: -1; Handling: +4; Toughness: 8(2), Skill: d8; Top Speed: (per missile. See entry.)
(Skill refers to any time a missile needs to make an attack roll or maneuver roll in chases)
To fire a missile, the computers on the vehicle must be aware of the target (use sensor
targeting rules as normal). Then, the vehicle needs to ‘lock on’ to the target. This gives the
“signature”, whether heat, visual, radar, or otherwise to the small computer brain in the
missile. Getting a lock is an opposed Electronics roll versus the target’s maneuvering skill
(Riding, Driving, Piloting). Most modern warcraft have a Detection Warning Receiver
(DWR) that not only lets them know they are being detected, but if they have a lock on
or not.

Once locked, the attacker can fire any number of missiles available. Note that no shooting
or gunnery roll is needed, as these are self-guided. Once fired, they no longer require the
attention of the pilot (Fire and forget.) They will close one range band per round (so a
missile at Short Range will hit the next round, and one at Long will take three rounds to
hit.) Should a missile miss a target, it is capable of turning around and trying again, after
which, they are out of fuel.

Missiles gain the Gang Up bonus when fired in groups, meaning a group of 5 or more
missiles will gain the full +4 bonus.

If more than 10 missiles are fired at once, they are considered a swarm. They attack all
targets within a small burst template, gaining the full gang up bonus to strike, and doing
full damage to all locations to all targets in the template, even bystanders. Unlike a normal
swarm, they can be damaged by normal weapons (if a successful strike is made. See stats
above.) The swarm is dense enough that detonating the missile will detonate a number
of additional missiles equal to the number of successes and raises in d4s. (So, a hit with a
raise will detonate 2d4 missiles.)

If more than 20 missiles are fired, they are medium template. And if more than 30 are
fired, they are a large template.

Missile attacks can be evaded by an Evasion (Maneuver roll gives -2 to be hit by missiles,
-4 if significant cover ((buildings, canyon walls, etc.) are available), by firing AMCM
(provides cover. Complication in Chases,) or by shooting them down. The last is a tricky
maneuver, missiles are small (Size -1,) and fast (Mach 3, -8 to hit,) so are hard to hit, but
generally move close enough together destroying one is likely to wipe out the whole
swarm.

Reaction Fire – Some weapons are capable of reaction fire These weapons fire automatically
at close range. Just before being attacked by a missile, reaction fire weapons can fire (once.)
If they succeed, they detonate the missile before it impacts. This can lead to detonations
as above.





The only reason I Posted this info is to help Deskepticon answer your questions as he doesnt own the book.... I am to new to really answer as well as he can. I'm likewise very interested in his responses.

[ValhallaGH]

I'll repeat the welcome to the forum. Welcome!
Also, welcome to Savage Worlds. I hope you have a great time.

- This +4 bonus… What roll should be applied?.

Attack rolls made by the missiles.
If a group of missiles is trying to hit a Mech then it gets a Gang Up bonus on the attack. Note that unless noted otherwise, Gang Up only applies to Fighting attacks and Fighting attacks are against Parry, so the missiles are presumably having to beat the Mech's Parry.
.

- Does it count as one action to dodge all the missiles ?.

Yep, a single Action.
Though you should also remember that Evasion is a reactive Free Action against area attacks. So it's possible that a pilot could use a maneuver to dodge missiles, as an action, and then also roll to evade explosions as a free action.

- Is a single roll made for all the volley or one for each missile?

Single roll to lock on.
Each missile attacks individually. Unless there are enough for a swarm.
Swarms automatically hit everything in the area, no attack roll required.

- Is it possible to fire missiles against missiles?.

Yes. It's going to be absurdly difficult, due to the stacking of range, size, and speed penalties, but it is possible.

- Can the target missiles try to dodge them?.

Nope. Missiles are objects, not characters, so they don't get to evade.


Apologies for not speaking up earlier. I don't have the book and didn't want to steer you wrong.

[ValhallaGH]

Now, again, I come back with the first question of all (the +4 modifier for “Gang up” Missiles) because I still have doubts.
...
But ... regardless of whether it's with Piloting (in this case) or Shooting, what I just do not understand is that in the text its said you first achieve this locking roll and THEN (only if you success) you decide the number of missiles you're going to shoot (which is what gives you the +1 to +4 depending on the number of missiles you decide to shoot but once you have achieved the “lock” roll).
...
Thanks... And sorry for being so annoying!.

Gang Up doesn't apply to the "lock on" roll.

The missiles have to make an attack roll when they can hit the target. This roll uses the missile's skill to hit; since the Gang Up bonus applies, this roll counts as Fighting and is against the Mech's Parry.
If the missile misses then it gets to try again next round.

Personally, I find it to be badly worded and kind of awkward in play, but I'm going to extend the benefit of the doubt and assume that the play test showed this to work as intended.

Also, questions aren't annoying. Ignoring answers is. You're doing fine.

[Deskepticon]

Okay, with the full text provided by Fraser (Thank You!), I ask that you ignore most of what I said in my first post. I think I have a better understanding of the rules now.
______

To use a missile system, the pilot must make an Electronics vs the target's Driving/Piloting/Riding. If successful, they can launch their missiles. This probably uses the core SWADE rule, where a Success is a "short lock" and only allows you fire half the payload, while a raise on the Electronics roll is a more complete lock, allowing you to fire ALL your missiles. If you fail the roll, you don't launch any missiles.

There is no subsequent Shooting roll needed to launch the missiles (i.e., "fire & forget"), though if 9 or less missiles are fired then each one uses its "Skill die type" (provided in the missile description) to hit. That is the roll that receives the Gang Up bonus, and like ValhallaGH mentioned, the Target Number is most likely the target's Parry. If a missile fails to hit, it can "turn around" a try again next round, but only once.

I don't know if you also add a Wild Die to the missile's attack roll or not, but I'll go with "No" ... in other words, each missile is essentially treated as an Extra.
_______

Firing 10 or more missiles is treated as a Swarm: a Small swarm at 10+, Medium swarm at 20+, and Large swarm with 30+ missiles.

Swarms target everything under their Area of Effect, receiving the full +4 Gang Up bonus. Because you must lock onto a target first, this means you can target the "worst pilot" in a group to increase your chances of a successful lock, launch 30+ missiles, and potential also hit the faster or more experienced pilots.
________

Evasion

Sensors warn a target when they are being locked-on, which is the impetus used to allow them to Evade. This can be done in a number of ways:
1) a Manuevering roll (Driving/Piloting/Riding)
2) launching AMCM
3) shooting the missiles down. Reactionary Fire weapons allow a Free Attack once the missiles get within Short range.

The rules stating that each success and raise destroys 1d4 missiles seems to only apply when there are 9 or fewer launched. Because later on, when discussing Swarms, it says a success usually destroys the whole swarm.

So my original response to this (while wrong), was not far off the mark. Personally, I'm fine with ruling that if you can shoot down one missile, the resulting explosion foils the entire volley attempt. I mean... the penalty is frickin -9 at Short range! It would really suck to hit that TN, then get killed by a lucky strike from one errant missile.
_______

Sorry about the wrong conclusions in my first post. I hope this was more helpful.

P.S. - You're not annoying... but stick around and I might teach you a few things.

[Deskepticon]

It's worth noting that the Robotech setting appears to change the way certain rules work.

Missile Swarms must make an attack roll first. (SWADE swarms automatically hit and just roll damage.) This is likely due to the fact that missile swarms can be evaded.
_____

Which brings us to the way Evasion is handled.
As mentioned, SWADE swarms don't need to roll to hit, so core Evasion imposes a penalty to the target's roll, with a success resulting in complete evasion.

Robotech instead imposes a penalty to the missile's attack roll if a target's maneuvering roll is successful. Meaning even if a character succeeds at the maneuvering roll, the missile can still hit with a lucky roll.

I guess the saving grace is that the Robotech rules seem to imply the target only makes ONE maneuvering roll, which applies to ALL the missiles that attack that round. Core rules has you roll individually for each missile, which can really slow things down if you're staring down 7 or 8 of them.
__________

I think that's all the changes I've noticed. In the end, it seems it would speed up how missile evasion works, holding true to the stated concept of dodging missiles left-and-right.

[KeglarZain]

Thank very much for the answers to both Deskepticon and ValhallaGH! (and Fraser !, who has had the great idea of uploading the whole section of rules, which I think has served to clarify everything!). Now I just understand how the whole system works (at least the rules of dynamic missiles). And I recognize that I like everything I read.

Gang Up doesn't apply to the "lock on" roll. The missiles have to make an attack roll when they can hit the target. This roll uses the missile's skill to hit; since the Gang Up bonus applies, this roll counts as Fighting and is against the Mech's Parry. If the missile misses then it gets to try again next round. Personally, I find it to be badly worded and kind of awkward in play, but I'm going to extend the benefit of the doubt and assume that the play test showed this to work as intended.

Ok. Thanks!. The truth is that I was stubborn with the “location” roll and my mind did not seem to be able to see beyond.

There is no subsequent Shooting roll needed to launch the missiles (i.e., "fire & forget"), though if 9 or less missiles are fired then each one uses its "Skill die type" (provided in the missile description) to hit. That is the roll that receives the Gang Up bonus, and like ValhallaGH mentioned, the Target Number is most likely the target's Parry. If a missile fails to hit, it can "turn around" a try again next round, but only once. I don't know if you also add a Wild Die to the missile's attack roll or not, but I'll go with "No" ... in other words, each missile is essentially treated as an Extra.

Ok. I see!. It makes a lot of sense now (I finally understand what are the use the missile's skill dice!).

Evasion Sensors warn a target when they are being locked-on, which is the impetus used to allow them to Evade. This can be done in a number of ways: 1) a Manuevering roll (Driving/Piloting/Riding) 2) launching AMCM 3) shooting the missiles down. Reactionary Fire weapons allow a Free Attack once the missiles get within Short range. The rules stating that each success and raise destroys 1d4 missiles seems to only apply when there are 9 or fewer launched. Because later on, when discussing Swarms, it says a success usually destroys the whole swarm.

Okay. Well, this makes sense!. And that distinction of missiles destroyed between a Swarm attack and a group with fewer missiles. This explanation gives meaning to the words in the text of the rule. Thanks for the clarification!.

I guess the saving grace is that the Robotech rules seem to imply the target only makes ONE maneuvering roll, which applies to ALL the missiles that attack that round. Core rules has you roll individually for each missile, which can really slow things down if you're staring down 7 or 8 of them.

I agree. More because taking into account the number of missiles that load each of the Mechas and Robotech units otherwise the number of rolls would be overwhelming. Again… Thank you very much to all!. (Wow!. Definitely this is a great forum and a great community of players!).