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Grow/Shrink & Ranged Weapons

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  • ValhallaGH
    commented on 's reply
    Note that a Kevlar vest also has Min Str d6. And wearing armor when you lack the Min Str imposes a -1 to all Strength, Agility, and related Skill rolls.
    Much of the time, a character wielding an M-16 is also wearing a Kevlar vest.

  • Deskepticon
    commented on 's reply
    You're right!
    I'm a derp. For some reason I had thought the attack penalty applied to all weapons. Thanks for catching that.

  • paladin2019
    replied
    Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post
    As ValhallaGH pointed out, growth/shrink affects the character's Strength, but it does not affect a weapon's Minimum Strength OR damage ratings (however illogical that may sound). So shrinking down to Small Scale means your (presumably) Small greatsword still deals d10 damage... you just likely would receive a penalty when weilding it. This odd rules interaction can easily abstract the concept that all but the most exceptional attacks have no effect. Misses are simply mere scratches that don't even Shake.
    I may be missing a point here, but sort of. A greatsword wielded by a character with d4 Str only deals d4+d4 damage. The supplemental die is limited to the Str score.

    For ranged weapons, as was mentioned, the archetypal M16 has a Minimum Str of d6. The user will only ever suffer a -1 to hit with it due to this Power, likely offset by the +2 to hit for scaling to Size -2. I'm not seeing the disconnect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deskepticon
    commented on 's reply
    ScowlingDragon Yes, you already mentioned how the rules don't make sense to you. I merely provided a short example of how they can be interpreted, then offered an alternative. If applying various narrative Trappings to attack rolls doesn't appeal to you, that's fine. No pressure. Do you have any questions about the alternative rule that was proposed?

  • Ndreare
    commented on 's reply
    An example of what Radecliffe is saying I have a character with a ridiculously high Armor and I trapped it all as instant regeneration. This allowed him to have his weakness completely bypass his Armor as it ignores that instant regenerative effect.

    And I have another character Deflection spell is trapped as indestructible force shields he summons.

  • Radecliffe
    commented on 's reply
    ScowlingDragon No, saying hitting is hitting and damage is damage is just one way to describe what is happening. Savage Worlds totally allows GM's and players to narrate how and why an attack hits or misses or why it does or doesn't do damage. I fail to see how describing a miss as an attack that glances harmlessly off armor vs. describing a miss as an attack that hits nothing but air is any different. Both are equally valid narration to why an attack missed.

    There certainly is no rule in Savage Worlds that says a miss can only be described as no contact made. I miss only requires that no damage can be done and/or no effect can occur. This is what I call not confusing fluff for mechanics and vice versa. That's my two cents.

  • ScowlingDragon
    commented on 's reply
    Again we are not using D&D rules here where your AC is your 'To hit" class. Hitting is hitting and damage is damage in SW.
    But this was more an observation on my end, not some deep cut or anything.

  • ScowlingDragon
    commented on 's reply
    I think the mechanic makes sense for a character too weak to weild a weapon thats too heavy for them or is beyond their constitution. It makes no sense for a weapon thats also shrunk down with them.

  • Deskepticon
    replied
    Originally posted by ScowlingDragon View Post
    You got me there; I should have said the penalty makes no sense and doesn't feel elegant or logical. Taking a penalty on attack rolls, feels very D&D-esque wherien it links STR to weapon accuracy.
    But an "accuracy penalty" is a valid portrayal of what's happening. If the attack roll "misses," the shrunken bullet/arrow may still hit but deal only negligible damage. Hence, no roll. Only very accurate (or very lucky) shots with a shrunken ranged weapon get the chance to roll damage. Besides, the character is not always going to have a penalty. First off, it depends on their initial Strength die and weilded weapon, and second, they'd get the +2 Scale modifier if they shrink to Size -2.

    But let's get down to brass tacks.
    It seems you don't like the fact that weapon damage dice don't scale along with the character. Okay... so just make a houserule. Something like +1/-1 damage die for each increase/decrease in Scale. So if you shrink to Small, your 2d6 pistol now deals 2d4 damage. If the damage die is already d4, the weapon subtracts 1 from totals. For consistency purposes, apply this same rule to melee weapons; a Small dagger would deal Str+d4-1.

    I'm not sure if this is really worth the extra bookkeeping, but if it helps you make sense of things, give it a shot.

    Leave a comment:


  • ValhallaGH
    replied
    Originally posted by ScowlingDragon View Post
    You got me there; I should have said the penalty makes no sense and doesn't feel elegant or logical.
    So your objection is to the rules for ranged weapons and Minimum Strength. The shrink power was simply how you noticed it.
    Originally posted by Page 66
    RANGED WEAPONS: The user suffers a −1 attack penalty for each die step difference between his Strength and the weapon’s minimum.
    That's the rule you have a problem with, and thus the one that needs to be solved.

    Do you have any alternative proposals? I cannot currently think of alternatives that I would not object to more, so I do not have a useful suggestion at this time.

    Leave a comment:


  • ScowlingDragon
    replied
    Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
    Your original post made the false claim, "RAW, there is no real penalty to damage for being shrunk by power effects to ranged attacks. If anything, you become more accurate and deadly." The damage does stay the same but the character is lucky to maintain accuracy; barring a high Strength or very low Min Str equipment, the character should be taking at least a -2 on all attacks.
    You got me there; I should have said the penalty makes no sense and doesn't feel elegant or logical. Taking a penalty on attack rolls, feels very D&D-esque wherien it links STR to weapon accuracy.

    Leave a comment:


  • ValhallaGH
    replied
    Originally posted by ScowlingDragon View Post
    penalties to weilding weapons for being shrunk make no sense: Because the weapon scales in size with you.
    And? The weapon hits just as hard, so it requires just as much Strength to manage it; Strength the shrunken character is now lacking.
    That's how the rules work.

    If your original post was meant to say, "Dudes, the effects of shrink are stupid and lame and I want to replace them with something that doesn't make guns so stupidly powerful. Help?," then you should have just said that.
    Your original post made the false claim, "RAW, there is no real penalty to damage for being shrunk by power effects to ranged attacks. If anything, you become more accurate and deadly." The damage does stay the same but the character is lucky to maintain accuracy; barring a high Strength or very low Min Str equipment, the character should be taking at least a -2 on all attacks.

    In addition in SZ there are plenty of ways to REALLY lower the STR requirement minimum for weapons. So shrinking down becomes very useful to suddenly become a whole lot more accurate without dealing less damage.
    So your problem with the Core Rules is that a combination of Setting Rules makes one of the powers significantly stronger? Did I understand correctly?
    Also, how does that change the Min Str of armor? Or does the shrunken character just not wear any armor?

    Leave a comment:


  • ScowlingDragon
    replied
    Im currently running Savage Zietgiest, but penalties to weilding weapons for being shrunk make no sense: Because the weapon scales in size with you. Its also inelegant because it penalized accuracy, not damage.

    In addition in SZ there are plenty of ways to REALLY lower the STR requirement minimum for weapons. So shrinking down becomes very useful to suddenly become a whole lot more accurate without dealing less damage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deskepticon
    replied
    I'm generally not in favor of overcomplicating rules, especially fleeting ones like powers, that typically last only a few rounds. That said, I do recognize your concern here.

    As ValhallaGH pointed out, growth/shrink affects the character's Strength, but it does not affect a weapon's Minimum Strength OR damage ratings (however illogical that may sound). So shrinking down to Small Scale means your (presumably) Small greatsword still deals d10 damage... you just likely would receive a penalty when weilding it. This odd rules interaction can easily abstract the concept that all but the most exceptional attacks have no effect. Misses are simply mere scratches that don't even Shake.

    The inverse is also true; growing to Large (or even Huge) Scale doesn't make your sword any sharper, but it can allow you to weild it better, assuming you lacked the Min Str before the growth. The increase to Strength of course allows for higher damage potential. It's elegant in its simplicity and function.

    Ranged weapons, however, seem to merit a bit more scrutiny. While the same justification regarding Min Str can be applied when shrinking, there is a noticable lack of damage improvement when growing. A rifle would still deal 2d8 damage despite being the size of a howitzer. I can see the argument for a houserule that increases ranged damage die by one for each change in Scale (i.e. 2d6 becomes 2d8 at Large, 2d10 at Huge, etc).

    Leave a comment:


  • ValhallaGH
    replied
    Originally posted by ScowlingDragon View Post
    I just kinda realized: RAW, there is no real penalty to damage for being shrunk by power effects to ranged attacks.
    Minimum Strength.
    Human with Strength d8 is shrunk to Small (Size -2, the smallest possible, just small enough to change Scale) and Strength becomes d4. So an unusually strong human becomes too weak to use most equipment.
    So the human's M-16 or Bow now has a -1 to all attacks because the human is too weak to use it. If the human was using a Long Bow (Min Str d8) then he's now at -2 to all Shooting rolls; and that's ignoring the Minimum Strength of his armor (another -1 to all Agility-based Skills).

    Leave a comment:

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