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Mind Melter detect/conceal arcana discrepancy?

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  • Mind Melter detect/conceal arcana discrepancy?

    The Mind Melter has conceal arcana as an innate ability with the Range (Self) limitation.

    They also have detect arcana as an innate ability with the Range (Self) and Aspect limitations.

    That doesn't make sense to me. If you have conceal arcana, you don't have the Aspect limitation on detect/conceal arcana, right? Explain?

  • #2
    Because each is an IF feature, not simply a power. As to why - because Mind Melters should be able to do both of those things innately. They are an exception, not the rule.

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    • #3
      The bigger problem is that the limitations don't make sense from a game mechanics point of view. Detect/conceal arcana costs 2 PP to activate. One limitation lowers it to 1 PP, the lowest a limitation can take the casting. Adding Range (Self) to detect arcana seems counter-intuitive. The power's range is how far away it can detect, lowering that to self means you can tell that you have active powers on yourself? With this limitation, you can't add the extra range modifier. Adding that the mind melter can detect at line of sight seems to recognize this. I think the description would be better served by removing the limitation and barring the additional recipients modifier.

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      • Deskepticon
        Deskepticon commented
        Editing a comment
        The power's range is how far away it can detect, lowering that to self means you can tell that you have active powers on yourself?
        Nope. Range in SWADE is now always "distance to target." All power effects are given in the description. With detect arcana it detects any magic in sight. This means walls and other barriers 'block' the power.

        I suppose you could add a Penetrating modifier (+2 PP?) that allows you to gain partial detection through relatively thin materials. Something like one-foot of wood or cement, one-inch of steel, etc. It would effectively let you 'detect' into an adjacent room, two at most.
        Last edited by Deskepticon; 11-09-2019, 02:00 PM.

    • #4
      I don't have the new Rifts books. Are the descriptions given different from the core powers? Because that's the only reason I can see for spliting them into two separate abilities. Otherwise, the MM should just have detect/conceal arcana as an Innate Ability with the Self Limitation (i.e., no Aspect Limitation).

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      • #5
        I feel like I didn't make my point clear. "Detect Arcana (Aspect)" literally means "you have Detect Arcana but not Conceal Arcana." That isn't the case with the MM.

        And if the idea is that these are somehow in a total vacuum from each other, then Conceal Arcana must also have Aspect. Either both have it or neither. "Conceal Arcana without Aspect" IS Detect/Conceal Arcana, full stop.

        If the intent is that Detect Arcana costs 0 ISP then the rules should just say so.

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        • #6
          Frameworks are created by dev fiat. If they want to give them both aspects separately they can.

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          • pkitty
            pkitty commented
            Editing a comment
            Great. So why does Detect have Aspect and Conceal doesn't?

        • #7
          Originally posted by Radecliffe View Post
          Frameworks are created by dev fiat. If they want to give them both aspects separately they can.
          True. But what is the reasoning behind it? Is detect an Innate Ability while conceal isn't? If there's no purpose to splitting them apart, why do it? pkitty also brings up the valid point of: why doesn't conceal also have the Aspect Limitation? By all rights it should.

          Comment


          • #8
            It's because MMs *always* had (Aspect)Detect Arcana, but then much, much later in the development process got (Aspect)Conceal Arcana. The reason for *that* was because having Detect Arcana innately makes it often a bad choice to *choose* Conceal Arcana as a power choice, but "Alter Aura" (Conceal Arcana) was something Palladium MMs got automatically. The fact that very few Savage MMs would have it because of power choice opportunity cost was weird, so the team just gave it to them automatically to both give MMs a (much-needed) boost and to more closely align them with the source material.

            Because they got added at different times, they probably just didn't realize that they were essentially giving them two halves of the same power. So it probably is just design oversight.

            That being said, I don't really mind it, because it ends up giving the MMs a discount that actually does make sense, even if the source of that discount doesn't. MMs being able to cast both of those powers cheaper than other psychics is fine by me. I admit it's mechanically weird, but the end result is okay.
            Last edited by FponkDamn; 11-10-2019, 04:27 AM.

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            • #9
              Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post

              True. But what is the reasoning behind it? Is detect an Innate Ability while conceal isn't? If there's no purpose to splitting them apart, why do it? pkitty also brings up the valid point of: why doesn't conceal also have the Aspect Limitation? By all rights it should.
              Ah, well in that case someone should really ping PEGRoberson then. Given the books have gone to printer and he's very busy you probably need to do more than just ask a question here. That's just my advice.

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              • Deskepticon
                Deskepticon commented
                Editing a comment
                Fponkdamn's comment might point to the truth. It may be a legacy think, listing the abilities as they were named in PR. If that's the case, that's perfectly fine. Odd, but fine.
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