Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Psionic Limitations

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Psionic Limitations

    So it has been brought to my attention that you cannot use the New Powers Edge to remove limitations as per SWADE from Psionic powers your character knows?

    I’m just wondering if that’s written anywhere in TLPG and I’m missing it? In TLPG a Psionic takes a power which has been limited. In SWADE you can use New Powers to remove a limitation from a known power. So it shouldn’t be a problem to remove the self limitation from say Boost Trait. Aspect might be more tricky because “lower” isn’t even on the power list at all and would probably be unavailable.

    I know it’s late but if this differs from core, can it be clarified?
    Last edited by Koshnek; 10-10-2019, 01:39 PM.

  • #2
    Might be better to use New Powers to grab a new Trapping for the power that isn't limited. Many "self only" powers are also Innate Abilities, and I don't think it'd be thematically appropriate to allow the power to used as a free action against others.

    Comment


    • Radecliffe
      Radecliffe commented
      Editing a comment
      The primary issue at hand is that several psionic powers on both the basic psionic list and the Mind Melter list are limited to self only. The rationale being that he can use the New Powers edge and select a new trapping for a power that, on the list, is limited to self only and remove the self only limitation.

    • Deskepticon
      Deskepticon commented
      Editing a comment
      Radecliffe Ah, I see now! My bad.

  • #3
    I'm curious where people are getting the idea that you can just choose to ignore the built-in restrictions of an IF. If you're a Cyber-Knight, then Boost Trait is, for you, an Innate ability that can only be used on yourself, and only to Boost (not lower) traits. That's it. Where are people getting the idea that you can take a different trapping of that power to ignore that restriction?

    SWADE says that Trappings can impose limitations; it doesn't say Trappings are the only way to impose limitations. Iconic Frameworks are another way. There's nothing in the RAW to support the idea that you can ignore a prominent feature of the IF just because you want to.

    I obviously don't know for certain that I'm correct here, but it seems crazy to me to interpret this any other way. Is it just wishful thinking?

    Comment


    • #4
      Nothing has really changed from the SWADE rules. A Leyline Walker can choose to have the limited self on boost only trapping in his Boost lower, that same character can take the new power wdge and learn the regual version of Boost /Lower because he is aloqed to learn the basic version of boost lower. In RIFTS sevwral iconic frameworks can only learn a limmited version if certain spells, the basic vwrsion of the spells are not on theur pwwra liat so they cannot nuat take thw new power edge and learn them. If they roll on the psionic or mysticism table they have a chance of beong able to learn a power not on their list, at that time they could learn the un limmited version on a specific spell they might have already received.

      Now as far as adept is concerned my reading is that you are adding thise limmitations and bonuses to a speciifc trapping of the spell but since you have acess to the un limmited version of the spell on your spell list you could then learn a diffwrent version with the neq power edge. I could bw qrong about that part but that is joq I read the edge.

      Comment


      • #5
        I’m not ignoring anything. In every instance that I’m aware of, the text of a power is stated as being given the self and/or aspect *limitation*. SWADE allows you to spend an advance to remove a limitation/limitations with the New Powers Edge. You select a new trapping for a power or remove a limitation, or you select a new power.

        This is core SW. Nowhere written in TLPG or A&M (Adept), to the best of my knowledge, does it say that you cannot remove limitations as usual. I can see why this might not be the case, and if you cannot remove a limitation on a power given to you free or chosen from a the appropriate list with the power already limited, then it would be very beneficial if this were explained somewhere.

        I was completely blindsided by this today because going by core, this is a simple case of no problem (to the best of my knowledge) but my entire group was very against the concept.

        This applies to adept too. If adept changes your power to limited to self, can you select a new trapping that is not innate and limited to self? Can you remove the self limitation from the innate trapping?

        As far as I know, according to SWADE and lack of anything written to the contrary in TLPG/A&M you can. If you can’t, it would be fairly simple to fix if there’s still time, I would think.
        Last edited by Koshnek; 10-10-2019, 03:06 PM.

        Comment


        • #6
          I think I see the issue! Thank you, Koshnek , your explanation has, I think, let me figure out where the confusion is.

          The rules in SWADE do not let you remove a Limitation with an Advance. They let you change a Trapping with an Advance. And Trappings may be the source of a Limitation, but are not the only source of Limitations.

          So that's the confusion. Because people are seeing that Limitations can be attached to Trappings, and Trappings can be changed with Advances, they're making the leap to "Limitations can be removed with Advances." But that's not the actual RAW.

          Things that impose Limitations that are not Trappings include (but are presumably not limited to!) Iconic Frameworks and the Adept Edge. You can change the Trappings of your Powers all you want, but if the Limitation isn't coming from Trappings then it can't be changed in this way.

          Does that make more sense?

          Comment


          • FponkDamn
            FponkDamn commented
            Editing a comment
            Radecliff, I don't think that's true. I see the confusion of the wording, but I think you're reading "choose one power to become an Innate ability with the Range (self) limitation" as "choose one power with the Range (Self) limitation to become an Innate ability." That's not the case - you're just choosing a power, and making that power both Innate and Self-Only. It makes no mention of Trappings at all, nor the fact that you already have to have that limitation attached to the power.

          • Radecliffe
            Radecliffe commented
            Editing a comment
            The issue is in how Savage Worlds deals with powers. If I take Adept and select boost Trait to become an innate ability the power's trapping gains the limitation of self only. If I have access to boost trait without limitation in my power list then there is no reason I can't select a new trapping without that limitation to use as a normal power. Note that I am NOT suggesting the new trapping could be used as an innate ability. That is attached to the original trapping. If Adept modified my power list THEN I could see this argument because then I would only have access to a limited power. But that's not what adept does.

          • FponkDamn
            FponkDamn commented
            Editing a comment
            Again, I don't think that's true. Adept changes a power, but it's not necessarily doing so using the Trappings mechanic. That's the primary way that Savage Worlds alters powers, but it isn't the only way when you look at Savage Rifts. SR introduces the idea that a power can be altered/affected by something other than Trappings, and since Adept doesn't say that it adds a Trapping, I don't see a reason to believe that it does so.

            In other words, I think that whatever the rule is on powers gained from the Cyber-Knight list, that same rule will apply to powers altered via Adept.

        • #7
          But according to SWADE, a limitation is removable. Also, TLPG specifically links to the SWADE core rules.

          Thered an argument whether or not limitations can be removed, so it warrants some attention for clarity if there’s enough time. Note: I’m not advocating either side, just advocating clarifying.
          Last edited by Koshnek; 10-14-2019, 11:41 PM.

          Comment


          • Koshnek
            Koshnek commented
            Editing a comment
            Rereading I can see where you’re getting at. You’re saying the power is already trapped to self before you choose it and must therefore base your trapping around the power being pre-trapped as self? I can see that, but setting the rule up on that manner is about as clear as the red river .

          • FponkDamn
            FponkDamn commented
            Editing a comment
            Exactly. SR introduces a new way powers can have Limitations - Iconic Frameworks. (The first photo you clipped just shows you where to find Limitations in the core book.) SWADE lets you change trappings, and in the core rules, trappings are the only source of Limitations, so it can definitely feel like an Advance lets you remove Limitations. But if the Limitations are coming from something else, changing the Trappings won't do anything.

          • ogbendog
            ogbendog commented
            Editing a comment
            SWADE in RAW doesn't have IFs at all. Nor does it have ABs which require specific trapping or limitations. Rifts does.
            A note saying that such IF limitations can't be removed could clarify things

        • #8
          Power Lists do not exist in the core rules so kind of hard to have core rules that cover that scenario. Regardless, in SR a Framework has to choose spells from a particular list. Some lists have powers that have restrictions that are built into them. No matter how many trappings you select using New Powers those powers derive from that list. If that list does not contain a version of the spell without that limitation then no matter how many trappings you select that limitation will apply to all of them because it is the only version of that power you have access to. This is specific to Rifts and overrides the general rules for limitations in SWADE where power lists with powers having limitations attached directly to them don't exist.

          Comment


          • #9
            Which is easily cleared up with something along the lines of

            “Powers marked with an asterisk (*) have the reduced Power Points cost from the Range (Self) limitation, while those marked with a dagger (†) have both the Range (Self) and Aspect limitations (see Trappings in Savage Worlds), but cannot be removed with the New Powers Edge.”

            As is written it’s implied, “This power is pre-trapped with a limitation that must be taken into consideration when trapping your power, but unlike the section we’re linking to in SWADE, this trapping can’t be modified by modifying your trapping because it the baseline trapping”

            Which, as noted above, can be confusing and about as clear as the red river.

            Comment


            • FponkDamn
              FponkDamn commented
              Editing a comment
              I think the problem is that because the section on Limitations is in the Trappings chapter in SWADE, the "(see Trappings in Savage Worlds)" line is giving the impression that these Limitations are coming from Trappings, but they're not. That's just where the rules happen to be located.

              The reality is, as a Cyber-Knight I can still Trap my Smite however I want - it can be summoning psychic will into electrical energy, it can be the flames of The Lord adorning my blade, etc. *Those* are Trappings. But no matter which of those I pick, I still can't cast Smite on someone else.

          • #10
            Koshnek I want to ask you to remove the two images of rules taken from our published books in a previous post. Please use text in quotes and/or page references instead in the future.

            "Normal" Savage Worlds characters may have the option to add or remove Trappings (and possible Limitations) using the rules in Savage Worlds quite freely. However, the limited AB rules and power lists in the Rifts Setting override the ability to freely choose powers from Savage Worlds. Essentially, your list has those Trappings explicitly applied to the listed powers. You can't take powers or Trappings outside of your AB/IF's list unless explicitly directed to by Edges, Abilities, etc.
            Sean Owen Roberson
            Line Editor, Rifts for Savage Worlds

            Comment


            • Koshnek
              Koshnek commented
              Editing a comment
              I'm sorry about that. I don't know what I was thinking!

              Edit: I had a lot of trouble removing those images. I could not do it from my iPhone. When I logged in on a PC, I still couldn't remove them. I tried to remove them one at a time next and successfully removed the first picture. I could not remove the second one. I ended up having to upload a new image so that I could delete the final problematic image.
              Last edited by Koshnek; 10-15-2019, 12:08 AM.
          Working...
          X