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  • Momanos and Cyber

    I made a Momano focusing on claws and smite, and I really liked what I came up with! He starts out effective and by heroic is really able to make those big supes look twice before trying to take a bite. And even better, he has so many cool side things that he feels useful outside of combat despite the deep investment into the claws!

    Alternately, I can see a more psionically focused Momano or one who loads up on cyber and forsakes their special abilities being a lot different and still effective. (Haven’t built either, but they seem like reasonable options)

    Has anyone fiddled with a build getting new cyber while balancing their strain? Looking at it I see some cool potential (maybe taking an extra armed momano for more actions! Or maybe a Vehicle Interface momano with a motorcycle zooming around shooting a big gun and slicing anything that gets too close!). But looking at the requirements... it just doesn’t seem fun for a full IF. Beyond the limit, upgrade and realignment, all three edges basically for the equivalent of 1 edge worth of gear.

    If you want to get really crazy and keep your psionics viable, you could take Beyond the Limit, two upgrades, and improved realignment! But, again, 5 edges for something that’s kind of iconic to get 2 edges or so worth of benefits?

    Is there a better way, or am I misjudging it?

  • #2
    I was right with you about these guys needing a little help (giving them access somehow to Mega modifiers on their TW Bionics, losing the -1 to Psionics, easing the Edge tax on adding more cyber) but after crunching the numbers, I don't think that's a good idea. Tallying up all those Edges and skills, they end up about 16 points over a Combat Cyborg. They don't feel OP as-is because (unlike, say, the synergistic murder-machine that is the CK) their abilities all over the board. But I think the fact that some of their strengths are kind of blunted (no mega mods) or require a lot of investment to perfect (ie. going Bruiser-Martial Artist-Martial Warrior to maximize the claws, or C-P Alignment-Major-Master Psionic-New Powers to snag tasty Mind Melter powers) is a necessary limiting factor. You're never going to have enough advances as a Momano, and you'll never be as good at melee or psionics or cyberware as a more focused IF. But you can do middling well at a whole lot, looking cool and Zen while slaughtering wild vamps and brodkil.

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    • #3
      I agree with you (or shall I say, your math has allowed you to see the light).

      Except for the in-balance cyber path. It’s just not fun. There are 2 advances of not really getting anything whatsoever for 1 strain, and 3 total for 2 strain. Maybe theres not a better way. Or perhaps it’s more of a case of playing the Long game and spreading it out over your entire career.

      As it is right now, you would have to spend at least
      one of your two BaH edges on BTL or you run into the same problem - front loading all the edges at once but at a later rank instead of at novice.

      Maybe you could build a choice into one of the options? Maybe choose: Beyond the Limit or Brawler? That would really open it up imo. Then at least you’re looking at Upgrade -> Realign, Upgrade -> Realign. It feels much more friendly that way.
      Last edited by Koshnek; 09-17-2019, 09:14 PM.

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      • #4
        Momanos were supposed to be a sub sect of head hunters who used tw weapons in their cyber limb and had limited psychic powers. This caputers that feel perfectly, a basic head hunters is acutely a little jealous of how much cyber they start out with. While adding my cyber is very costly to them I don't think it's supposed to be something that viable just available for niche cases like any other psychic character getting cyber.

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        • #5
          Except it’s not the same for the usual psionic. It costs the normal psionic 1-2 edges to take 1-2 strain worth of cyber. It takes the momano 3-5 edges *and* it’s part of the headhunters flavor unlike the usual psionic.

          if they could choose between brawler and beyond the limit they could get a head start in either direction. It doesn’t change the math much if any, and it makes the cyber-balance route much more palleteable.

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          • #6
            It could also be as easy to just allow them to get their tw cybernetics as a reward or for purchase and not have to use the upgrade edge.

            Comment


            • Wanderingmystic
              Wanderingmystic commented
              Editing a comment
              If they keep the restrictions on not being able to get cyber from hero's journey then it us up to your gm to determine when you can get one.

            • Koshnek
              Koshnek commented
              Editing a comment
              Well, you can spend an Upgrade Edge on it. Though, that would require some cooperation with your GM for you to have the downtime for it to be installed.

            • tbone9581
              tbone9581 commented
              Editing a comment
              Its the upgrade edge because the new cybernetics are so specialized they are not readily available to be purchased.

          • #7
            Personally I think they should have their own variant for an Arcane Background. Something that's inbetween Techno Wizard and Psionic that requires the use of TW devices to express their powers. Kind of like the Cybermonk from Interface Zero. Though that might be adding more complexity to the game than necessary. My other thought is they should have more than just the basic TW Arms, it would actually be cool if they had a more modular system where they equip the best arm for the job.

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            • #8
              Doesn't a Momano Headhunter start with 13 points of strain and all but 1 point of that is negated by the IF? I'm not sure you can start with another IF and end up with that result. If feels like Moes are designed to be balanced to be OK at quite a few things but not to necessarily excel at any one thing. This is the type of character I like, but it might be frustrating to someone really liking the flavor, but struggling to achieve excellence in a certain direction. Not trying to be offensive, but trying to point out some of the balance ideas around the IF. I'm not the designer, so this is just my interpretation of why they might be that way.

              As a side note, for those looking for psionic claws fighters, Sean noted that an update for Psi-Warrior will allow their psionic blade to use unarmed edges to boost damage (martial artist/brawler/bruiser/etc.). A Psi-Warrior starts with smite and Martial Artist. For actual claws, they can take the Psi-Weapon Manipulation edge to "re-skin" their weapon.

              Comment


              • #9
                You can’t, in regards to Strain/Cyber and an AB. Momanos are unique in that respect.

                And theres one thing they are really good at, actually: Killing Supes!

                Someone in the group I’m in built a master psionic momano and its every bit as good as the claw momano I built. Heck, it might be better .

                I don’t have a problem with them at all and if they make it into the final version as is I wouldn’t be upset (maybe a bit disappointed)

                If building extra cyber in is supposed to be something commonly done / a viable way to build a momano, it’s not very well represented in practice. That’s the only issue I have.

                Beyond the Limit is Veteran and Iconic. Upgrade is Seasoned and Iconic. Realignment is Seasoned and Power. (Note: HJs cannot be used to gain Iconic or Power Edges, there’s no way to make this path easier).

                Theres absolutely no way to build for more cyber and stay in balance without dropping all of your starting edges. (Or at least using one on BTL). Then you could use the second Born a Hero edge on upgrade and wait until Seasoned for realignment (and hope your ISP holds out when you're dumping +3 ISP into every casting)

                The Alternative is to wait until Veteran and spend the next 3-5 advances for 1-2 edges worth of new bonuses.

                However, if given a choice between two edges (my initial thought was choose Beyond the Limit or Brawler), the math stays the same more or less, but adding cyber and staying in balance becomes a reasonable option.
                Last edited by Koshnek; 09-18-2019, 01:45 PM.

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                • #10
                  So,

                  I made a Momano Hunter who was able to start with Master Psionics and two additional powers at Novice (thanks to some creative use of 2-for-1 HJ rolls). This grants full access to the Mind Melters list for only -1 to Psionics.

                  So you are basically getting the best Headhunter build with Master psionics stacked on top.

                  I'm not sure they really need any tweaking. Remember, Beyond the Limit also comes with Psyche Degradation so it's a major cost even if there was a more efficient path to additional upgrades.

                  Just my observations actually making one.

                  VV

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                  • #11
                    Eh, if you’re building for cyber without losing your psionics, you’re not going to be able to get master (unless you just happen to roll professional twice and GM is ok with you keeping both rolls).

                    Master requires both of your Born a Hero edges wo HJ. Starting with extra Cyber requires both of your Born a Hero edges. (Or at least Beyond the Limit so you can snag upgrade at seasoned).

                    The maximum amount of cyber you could get is 4-5 more pieces if you invested hard and didn’t mind a serious
                    hit to your roll. (5 if you spend both edges at creation or 4 if you start at Seasoned through advancement).

                    The edges you spend on cyber are edges you’re not spending elsewhere. Then if you want to keep in balance (not lose your psionics) and have a chance to get a success you still have to buy realignment...more edges not spent elsewhere because you are choosing to get cyber.

                    Upgrading their TW Bionics is listed as advice for one of their paths to success, but it seems like a rocky path as currently designed.

                    Also, to the degradation, that’s just part of the fun! And everyone knows with great power comes great responsibility .

                    Comment


                    • Koshnek
                      Koshnek commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Interesting thought: does upgrading their TW Bionics mean....TW Upgrading?

                      How fun would it be to add +2 damage or +4 AP and some Die types to strength or a couple edges to the spikes and blades?
                      Last edited by Koshnek; 09-18-2019, 08:02 PM.

                  • #12
                    Personaly I would alow a momano to get their cyber enhancwd by a techno wizard.

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                    • #13
                      Great discussion guys. I like talking theoretical, but we are prepping for release. Please let me know if there is ANYTHING broken with Moes as currently built. I swapped Brawler for Chi.
                      Sean Owen Roberson
                      Line Editor, Rifts for Savage Worlds

                      Comment


                      • Koshnek
                        Koshnek commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Interesting, I like the chi Edge.

                      • banewood
                        banewood commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Sweet. That seems very thematic.

                    • #14
                      Can you add TW mods to the blades and spikes, hydraulic spike, or the energy projector?

                      Comment


                      • PEGRoberson
                        PEGRoberson commented
                        Editing a comment
                        nope, you cant TW TW

                      • Koshnek
                        Koshnek commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Hmm, does that mean unless otherwise noted (such as the Arzno armor in A&M), that you can’t add TW mods to existing TW gear in the gear chapters?

                      • Ndreare
                        Ndreare commented
                        Editing a comment
                        That would be a sound ruling, but make TW great infinitely less valuable to people who have access to a TW
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