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Power Armor - Do they count as vehicles?

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  • paladin2019
    commented on 's reply
    Thanks. I assume that means it's now parsed like Ace. Trick 1: Pilot roll + attack = no MAP, Trick 2: RV shooting 2 weapons = no MAP?

  • PEGRoberson
    commented on 's reply
    combat ace is fixed

  • Ndreare
    commented on 's reply
    Narrative: Pilots soak wounds by twisting, turning and maneuvering to minimize the damage and how it affects the vital parts of the ship. Not by gritting their teeth.

  • paladin2019
    replied
    Originally posted by PEGRoberson View Post
    Ace is any Piloting roll so it works for PA
    Now the important question. What is the narrative reason for being able to Soak Wounds? If it's the pilot just going, "Grrrrr!" and the big hit the vehicle just took doesn't phase it, that's one thing. If it's that the pilot is deftly maneuvering the vehicle away from the damage (narratively, they're jinking rather than ignoring the effects), then there is plenty of reason to allow specific exceptions to PA and jet pack pilots to do the same for their own wounds. EDIT: It's not like it doesn't cost a Benny, anyway. At that point, it's academic to deny them Combat Ace when it's core Edge for the PA Ace IF.

    EDIT 2: I'm being stupid. Who cares. The suit driver (or rocketman, ROCKETMAAAAAN!), being just a dude is armor, can always spend a Benny to Soak.

    Anyway, there is still a question of Combat Ace's applicability to PA when it's an Edge provided to the PA Ace IF.
    Last edited by paladin2019; 09-18-2019, 10:47 PM.

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  • PEGRoberson
    replied
    Ace is any Piloting roll so it works for PA

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  • mikelamroni
    commented on 's reply
    Savage Rifts does not count as source. And Palladium's system may not be used, but its story and tech are. Regardless, it's also about as far off topic as it gets. You asked what I disagreed with, I told you.

  • Portentious
    commented on 's reply
    You say in the source that Power Armor are vehicles. Where in the source does it say that Power Armor are vehicles? Or even imply it? If you are referring to the Palladium Source material, that is a completely different game system with com[pletely different mechanics for armor and vehicles. Savage Worlds has very specific rules for vehicles and we should be looking solely on what Pinnacle says about it. (Besides even Palladium Rifts makes a clear distinction between Power Armor and Robot Vehicles)

    First, in the TLPG, Power Armor is listed with Body Armor, before the section on weapons. Vehicles are only listed after the section on weapons and Robot Vehicles (which have properly had their name changed from Robot Armor thankfully) are actually listed after other vehicles in the vehicle section. There should be NO confusion about this.

    Let's take a look at what it says about Robot Armor:
    TLPG version 1 states:  "Robot Armor takes the concept of power armor to another level, where the suit becomes a vehicle, following all of the relevant rules for Vehicles in Savage Worlds, with a few modifications." emphasis is as per original text, not provided by me. It seems pretty obvious to me that all this sets a very deliberate line between Power Armor which is armor, and Robot Vehicles which are vehicles.

    Note that this was changed in version 2.0 to: "Supremely maneuverable in the wild post- apocalyptic wasteland, robot vehicles follow the rules for vehicles with a few modi cations." I'm not sure why the change to make it less wordy. Perhaps PEGRoberson can enlighten us.
    Last edited by Portentious; 09-18-2019, 03:40 AM.

  • mikelamroni
    commented on 's reply
    Yeah, I knew that about Combat Ace. Not sure how you read otherwise, but that's fine. In the source - Power Armor are vehicles. They may be vehicles that are controlled in a novel manner (as exoskeletons with computer assisted voice controls and numerous switches/buttons inside the control areas inside the arms), but they are vehicles. They require the skills to use and pilot like a vehicle, they have their own power source like a vehicle, they are in fact vehicles. But Sci-Fi companion prefers the Iron-Man/Super hero route of if its controlled by body movement, it's armor and does not adequately protect you from harm. This is not the case in the source material, but as it is WAY to late to switch horses in this stream, that is how we have to look at it. That is part of why this post exists. They are not explicitly vehicles in SW. And its ambiguous in SR as of now.

  • Portentious
    commented on 's reply
    mikelamroni "not agreeing with your assessment of power armor"
    What assessment of power armor are you not agreeing with?

    Also, if you read Combat Ace, you will see the Combat Ace allows you to fire twice without the MAP. It does NOT say you can make a piloting check and also fire twice without the MAP. No, it only says you can make a piloting check and fire once or you can fire twice, both without suffering the MAP.
    Last edited by Portentious; 09-17-2019, 10:40 PM.

  • paladin2019
    commented on 's reply
    Note that nothing gets the second benefit of Combat Ace, firing two weapons without MAP, as SR2 does not have any Robot Armor. It only has Robot Vehicles.

    Yes, this is going n the typo thread now.

  • BLEYS INGRAM
    replied
    A Flying Titan is Nimble..Only a T-21 Terrain Hopper or a Cyclone get Auto Dodge.

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  • mikelamroni
    commented on 's reply
    It has Nimble, which is enough to cover what it can do. The heavier armors can't even do that.

  • BLEYS INGRAM
    replied
    Though very specific, The Bandito Sidewinder Samas gets a evasion bump if the pilot has Ace. iI personally think that the Terrain Hopper should also have this mechanic (Auto-Dodge in PB terms.)

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  • mikelamroni
    commented on 's reply
    Aside from not agreeing with your assessment of power armor, I agree for the most part with what you have here. But it is in no way explicit or even directly implicit. Note Combat Ace would also allow you two fire two weapons without MAP. I WANT your interpretation to be the correct one, but I also want it included in the changed edges for TLPG, or at least mentioned in the GM handbook or Empires or something.

  • Portentious
    replied
    There should be a difference between Robot Armor and Power Armor. In classic Rifts, they are called Robot Vehicles, or just Robots, so the difference is clearer. I think Savage Rifts adoption of the term Robot Armor introduces the potential for confusion because of the word armor. [note: the Piloting skill also refers to them as Robot Vehicles and not Robot Armor. A little more consistency would be nice.]

    The primary difference between Power Armor and Robot Armor is that Power Armor is worn and the Human-machine interface is designed accordingly, whereas Robots are ridden in, and their control schema are also designed accordingly.

    Now back to the question at hand: Is the Ace combat edge applicable to vehicles, power armor or both?
    Let's take a look at the wording for Ace taken from SWADE: "They ignore two points of penalties to any Boating, Driving, or Piloting roll,..." Note this is taken from SWADE, where Power Armor does not exist. Power Armor DOES exist in RIFTS, however, and Power Armor requires the Piloting Skill. Therefore, the more specific rules of the Savage Rifts Setting take precedence over the more general rules of SWADE. Just because the words "power armor" are absent from SWADE does not preclude ACE from applying to the SAVAGE RIFTS setting specific concept of power armor, even though SWADE uses the term "vehicle." So, since ACE applies when boating, driving and piloting checks are rolled, it should apply to power armor in Savage Rifts where power Armor requires the Piloting skill.

    Next, according to the COMBAT ACE edge from TLPG, it clearly states both "vehicle" and "Robot Armor" which are considered vehicles, so that is pretty cut and dried. COMBAT ACE does apply to Robot Armor. But does it apply to Power Armor? The wording we should be paying attention to is "ignores the Multi-Action penalty for making a Boating, Driving, or Piloting check and firing a weapon on the same round." I think it is just an oversight that the word "vehicle" was mentioned in the COMBAT ACE edge, where it only acts to over-specify and thus confuse the matter. In other words, because ACE should apply to power armor, COMBAT ACE should also apply to power armor.

    So, as they apply to power armor:
    Piloting Skill is a measure of skill at piloting power armor and other things
    Power Armor Jock eliminates the -2 penalty for unfamiliarity with piloting Power Armor specifically, regardless of piloting skill (just like Robot Armor Jock would be needed for Robot Armor)
    Ace eliminates an additional -2 worth of penalties to Piloting Skill rolls and also allows bennies to be used to soak for damage using the piloting skill while operating power armor (note that an ace without Power Armor Jock could apply this -2 to the unfamiliarity penalty, which would be same as having Power Armor Jock. This makes sense as ace gives a natural aptitude and familiarity with systems that can be found in power armor, despite never training in power armor.)
    Combat Ace allows simultaneously conducting a piloting maneuver and a weapon action without penalty.



    It would seem to me that Ace and Combat Ace are applicable to power armor, even though power armor is not considered a vehicle. I think we should ignore the "vehicle" portion of those edges as they are unintentional carryovers from SWADE, which didn't have to account for power armor when it was written.
    Last edited by Portentious; 09-17-2019, 01:10 AM.

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