Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Power Armor - Do they count as vehicles?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Power Armor - Do they count as vehicles?

    Both the MARS Power Armor package and the Savage Foes SAMAS Ace have edges that have no bearing on them if Power Armor don't also count as vehicles. Ace and Combat Ace only work if you're making piloting checks, and while the update makes it clear you use piloting in place of agility, that doesn't mean you're suddenly making a bunch of piloting checks. Ace only applies to vehicles, but with how power armor are weirdly counted as enhanced body armor (they are vehicles in the original lore) and worn powers/weapons, it's unlikely a GM is going to allow you to use Piloting in place of Vigor to soak your own wounds.

    If they do count as vehicles, then suddenly Ace at least makes sense - you can use Piloting in place of Vigor to soak. Otherwise, why bother? Thematically and story wise I see it, but you don't choose edges simply for story - not for bad guys or PCs.

  • #2
    As far as I can tell Combat Ace doesn't do much for a PA Ace. The first part does technically work where you can eliminate the MAP for making a piloting rolls and firing a weapon at the same time since it does not technically refer to a vehicle Then the second part is all about how it works for Robot Vehicles. As you say it is of limited use because PA isn't going to be making constant piloting rolls. It's mostly up to the GM to decide how often piloting rolls are needed. Personally I think it is punitive to require Power Armor to require piloting rolls for all actions or even most actions. Flying is certainly a use for piloting but this is not a universal trait.

    To my mind making PA count as a vehicle creates more problems than it solves. Excluding the Glitter Boy, other PA suits don't have near the armor protection of Robot Vehicles (or vehicles for that matter) making a lot more fragile when taking damage. Then there are out of control rolls, critical hits, etc. This does not seem fast or fun to me.

    A far easier solution is just modify the Combat Ace (or make a new one for Power Armor) that is more relevant to using Power Armor.

    Edit: Yeah, Combat Ace does not work. I was thinking it did not directly refer to a vehicle in its description but it does.
    Last edited by Radecliffe; 09-13-2019, 08:04 PM. Reason: Making a correction

    Comment


    • mikelamroni
      mikelamroni commented
      Editing a comment
      Having Power Armor count as vehicles for the purposes of edges is not the same as making them vehicles. I'm not suggesting changing how PA works mechanically (even if it would make more sense from the original lore, excluding stats even, just the description), but rather making the edges actually work.

  • #3
    I think the easiest fix is to have Power Armor Jock let Ace apply to Power Armor and give some benefit to those who have Combat Ace. Then Combat Ace works as normal for vehicles and robot vehicles, but the specific application of power armor is covered under the edge specifically for it. Still not sure how to include it though.

    Suggested Wording: Power armor requires a basic level of training and experience to operate effectively. A character must have this Edge to avoid a −2 penalty to Agility and all skill rolls while wearing power armor. If the character also has the Ace Edge, the character can use Piloting skill instead of Vigor for soaking damage while in power armor.

    Comment


    • #4
      I for one believe Power Armor = Vehicle is more consistent and fits my world view of Rifts better.

      I think it would also expand options. But it may be easy to late to get that radical a change.

      Otherwise I like this topic.

      Comment


      • #5
        Letting PA pilots benefit from vehicle-focused Edges is fine. Making PA vehicles is bad. I can expound on that if needed, but am doubtful the designers will take the idea seriously.

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by mikelamroni View Post
          Ace only applies to vehicles, but with how power armor are weirdly counted as enhanced body armor (they are vehicles in the original lore) and worn powers/weapons, it's unlikely a GM is going to allow you to use Piloting in place of Vigor to soak your own wounds.

          If they do count as vehicles, then suddenly Ace at least makes sense - you can use Piloting in place of Vigor to soak. Otherwise, why bother? Thematically and story wise I see it, but you don't choose edges simply for story - not for bad guys or PCs.
          Ace doesn't allow you to use Piloting to Soak your own Wounds (that still uses Vigor), it allows you to make Soak rolls for your vehicle with the Piloting roll.

          So Ace prevents your PA from taking damage, like if it was targeted in an attack. YOU still roll Vigor.

          Comment


          • paladin2019
            paladin2019 commented
            Editing a comment
            I wouldn't go that far. Ace's reducing piloting penalties isn't exclusively tied to using a vehicle, though the rest of the benefits of the two Edges are. But PA maneuvers only use Piloting in flight (unless I'm misreading the intent of the Piloting paragraph with regards to "built-in locomotion"and it replaces Athletics when walking/running, too).

          • Deskepticon
            Deskepticon commented
            Editing a comment
            paladin2019
            Originally posted by Ace Edge
            Aces are pilots and drivers who have a special affinity with their car, boat, plane, or other vehicle.
            If PA is not a vehicle, Ace doesn't apply. If you want something to mitigate penalties while in PA, you're going to need to create a custom Edge.

          • paladin2019
            paladin2019 commented
            Editing a comment
            Of course PA =/= vehicle, but Ace's first benefit, "They ignore two points of penalties to any Boating, Driving, or Piloting roll," doesn't specify while operating a vehicle. So of the three potential benefits of the two Edges (reduce penalties, soak damage, and reduce MAP), only one applies.

            EDIT: Consider an alternative situation. Would Ace apply to piloting rolls with a jet pack? Piloting is the appropriate skill to use, so how do you make the Rocketeer without allowing Ace to apply? And if you do allow Ace to apply, how does that square with a guy wearing a T-43 with a Falcon 300 getting the bonus and a Samson or T-31 not?
            Last edited by paladin2019; 09-14-2019, 12:13 PM.

        • #7
          The major consequence of making PA a vehicle is that the character inside is no longer a wearer but a pilot, and is thus protected from all damage except for the 9 result on the critical hit table.

          When it comes to a specific note in PA Ace allowing Ace and Combat Ace to apply, it would have to note be something more akin to noting that PA can be treated as a vehicle for everything except soaking wounds. Otherwise, you go back to the consequence above.

          Comment


          • #8
            I do not see why this would be a problem.

            It is a game design option that makes sense for power armor as presented in some fiction and classic rifts. While it does not make sense for power armour like Ironman or Warmachine.

            Warmonger = vehicle
            Classic rifts = vehicle
            Ironnan = Armor

            Both options are valid, it just depend in play preference.


            Personally I like that Size 3 and less is personal armor. Size 4 and higher can be vehicles.

            Comment


            • #9
              So we're clear, changing the classification of power armor to make them like vehicles is not the intent. As for soaking, it should be noted that damage to the pilot AND the suit should happen on a wound, at least descriptively. So it is appropriate to think that pilot could be used to soak. I'd be okay if the PA pilot got +2 to soak instead (there is literally self sealing armor in the way of damage).

              My intent IS that Power Armor should count as vehicles for the reduction of piloting test difficulties (which are taken instead of athletics for all Power Armor and for flying). The question about jet packs is also an appropriate side note to this. Rifts has too many pieces of gear that straddle the vehicle line, even if they are not themselves vehicles, for their not to be some sort of note. It should be noted in the changes to core edges section, if any changes are adopted to the core edge. Alternately, you could make them additional effects of the Power Armor Jock edge, but I think that misses the point for jetpacks of all stripes - though it does solve the power armor issue. An edge that has three benefits on a hovercycle and only one in power armor is obviously missing something.

              Comment


              • paladin2019
                paladin2019 commented
                Editing a comment
                Ace's penalty reduction is not tied to operating a vehicle. It applies to making rolls, regardless of the situation.

                (And Ace only has two benefits, the penalty reduction and soaking a vehicle's wounds.)

            • #10
              There should be a difference between Robot Armor and Power Armor. In classic Rifts, they are called Robot Vehicles, or just Robots, so the difference is clearer. I think Savage Rifts adoption of the term Robot Armor introduces the potential for confusion because of the word armor. [note: the Piloting skill also refers to them as Robot Vehicles and not Robot Armor. A little more consistency would be nice.]

              The primary difference between Power Armor and Robot Armor is that Power Armor is worn and the Human-machine interface is designed accordingly, whereas Robots are ridden in, and their control schema are also designed accordingly.

              Now back to the question at hand: Is the Ace combat edge applicable to vehicles, power armor or both?
              Let's take a look at the wording for Ace taken from SWADE: "They ignore two points of penalties to any Boating, Driving, or Piloting roll,..." Note this is taken from SWADE, where Power Armor does not exist. Power Armor DOES exist in RIFTS, however, and Power Armor requires the Piloting Skill. Therefore, the more specific rules of the Savage Rifts Setting take precedence over the more general rules of SWADE. Just because the words "power armor" are absent from SWADE does not preclude ACE from applying to the SAVAGE RIFTS setting specific concept of power armor, even though SWADE uses the term "vehicle." So, since ACE applies when boating, driving and piloting checks are rolled, it should apply to power armor in Savage Rifts where power Armor requires the Piloting skill.

              Next, according to the COMBAT ACE edge from TLPG, it clearly states both "vehicle" and "Robot Armor" which are considered vehicles, so that is pretty cut and dried. COMBAT ACE does apply to Robot Armor. But does it apply to Power Armor? The wording we should be paying attention to is "ignores the Multi-Action penalty for making a Boating, Driving, or Piloting check and firing a weapon on the same round." I think it is just an oversight that the word "vehicle" was mentioned in the COMBAT ACE edge, where it only acts to over-specify and thus confuse the matter. In other words, because ACE should apply to power armor, COMBAT ACE should also apply to power armor.

              So, as they apply to power armor:
              Piloting Skill is a measure of skill at piloting power armor and other things
              Power Armor Jock eliminates the -2 penalty for unfamiliarity with piloting Power Armor specifically, regardless of piloting skill (just like Robot Armor Jock would be needed for Robot Armor)
              Ace eliminates an additional -2 worth of penalties to Piloting Skill rolls and also allows bennies to be used to soak for damage using the piloting skill while operating power armor (note that an ace without Power Armor Jock could apply this -2 to the unfamiliarity penalty, which would be same as having Power Armor Jock. This makes sense as ace gives a natural aptitude and familiarity with systems that can be found in power armor, despite never training in power armor.)
              Combat Ace allows simultaneously conducting a piloting maneuver and a weapon action without penalty.



              It would seem to me that Ace and Combat Ace are applicable to power armor, even though power armor is not considered a vehicle. I think we should ignore the "vehicle" portion of those edges as they are unintentional carryovers from SWADE, which didn't have to account for power armor when it was written.
              Last edited by Portentious; 09-17-2019, 12:10 AM.

              Comment


              • mikelamroni
                mikelamroni commented
                Editing a comment
                Yeah, I knew that about Combat Ace. Not sure how you read otherwise, but that's fine. In the source - Power Armor are vehicles. They may be vehicles that are controlled in a novel manner (as exoskeletons with computer assisted voice controls and numerous switches/buttons inside the control areas inside the arms), but they are vehicles. They require the skills to use and pilot like a vehicle, they have their own power source like a vehicle, they are in fact vehicles. But Sci-Fi companion prefers the Iron-Man/Super hero route of if its controlled by body movement, it's armor and does not adequately protect you from harm. This is not the case in the source material, but as it is WAY to late to switch horses in this stream, that is how we have to look at it. That is part of why this post exists. They are not explicitly vehicles in SW. And its ambiguous in SR as of now.

              • Portentious
                Portentious commented
                Editing a comment
                You say in the source that Power Armor are vehicles. Where in the source does it say that Power Armor are vehicles? Or even imply it? If you are referring to the Palladium Source material, that is a completely different game system with com[pletely different mechanics for armor and vehicles. Savage Worlds has very specific rules for vehicles and we should be looking solely on what Pinnacle says about it. (Besides even Palladium Rifts makes a clear distinction between Power Armor and Robot Vehicles)

                First, in the TLPG, Power Armor is listed with Body Armor, before the section on weapons. Vehicles are only listed after the section on weapons and Robot Vehicles (which have properly had their name changed from Robot Armor thankfully) are actually listed after other vehicles in the vehicle section. There should be NO confusion about this.

                Let's take a look at what it says about Robot Armor:
                TLPG version 1 states:  "Robot Armor takes the concept of power armor to another level, where the suit becomes a vehicle, following all of the relevant rules for Vehicles in Savage Worlds, with a few modifications." emphasis is as per original text, not provided by me. It seems pretty obvious to me that all this sets a very deliberate line between Power Armor which is armor, and Robot Vehicles which are vehicles.

                Note that this was changed in version 2.0 to: "Supremely maneuverable in the wild post- apocalyptic wasteland, robot vehicles follow the rules for vehicles with a few modi cations." I'm not sure why the change to make it less wordy. Perhaps PEGRoberson can enlighten us.
                Last edited by Portentious; 09-18-2019, 02:40 AM.

              • mikelamroni
                mikelamroni commented
                Editing a comment
                Savage Rifts does not count as source. And Palladium's system may not be used, but its story and tech are. Regardless, it's also about as far off topic as it gets. You asked what I disagreed with, I told you.

            • #11
              Though very specific, The Bandito Sidewinder Samas gets a evasion bump if the pilot has Ace. iI personally think that the Terrain Hopper should also have this mechanic (Auto-Dodge in PB terms.)

              Comment


              • mikelamroni
                mikelamroni commented
                Editing a comment
                It has Nimble, which is enough to cover what it can do. The heavier armors can't even do that.

            • #12
              A Flying Titan is Nimble..Only a T-21 Terrain Hopper or a Cyclone get Auto Dodge.

              Comment


              • #13
                Ace is any Piloting roll so it works for PA
                Sean Owen Roberson
                Line Editor, Rifts for Savage Worlds

                Comment


                • #14
                  Originally posted by PEGRoberson View Post
                  Ace is any Piloting roll so it works for PA
                  Now the important question. What is the narrative reason for being able to Soak Wounds? If it's the pilot just going, "Grrrrr!" and the big hit the vehicle just took doesn't phase it, that's one thing. If it's that the pilot is deftly maneuvering the vehicle away from the damage (narratively, they're jinking rather than ignoring the effects), then there is plenty of reason to allow specific exceptions to PA and jet pack pilots to do the same for their own wounds. EDIT: It's not like it doesn't cost a Benny, anyway. At that point, it's academic to deny them Combat Ace when it's core Edge for the PA Ace IF.

                  EDIT 2: I'm being stupid. Who cares. The suit driver (or rocketman, ROCKETMAAAAAN!), being just a dude is armor, can always spend a Benny to Soak.

                  Anyway, there is still a question of Combat Ace's applicability to PA when it's an Edge provided to the PA Ace IF.
                  Last edited by paladin2019; 09-18-2019, 09:47 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Ndreare
                    Ndreare commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Narrative: Pilots soak wounds by twisting, turning and maneuvering to minimize the damage and how it affects the vital parts of the ship. Not by gritting their teeth.

                  • PEGRoberson
                    PEGRoberson commented
                    Editing a comment
                    combat ace is fixed

                  • paladin2019
                    paladin2019 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thanks. I assume that means it's now parsed like Ace. Trick 1: Pilot roll + attack = no MAP, Trick 2: RV shooting 2 weapons = no MAP?
                Working...
                X