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Combat taking way longer (like 11 rounds)...

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  • Ndreare
    replied
    Note: Last night my daughter chose to play Deadlands Darkages, so not new information related to Rifts.

    But we will be doing a Chase and a huge Vehicle+Robot combat on Thursday.

    Leave a comment:


  • PEGRoberson
    commented on 's reply
    Im reading guys. Thanks for the feedback!

  • PEGRoberson
    commented on 's reply
    Thanks for the updated feedback. I give your opinions a lot of weight and consideration.

  • PEGRoberson
    commented on 's reply
    I appreciate the mathematical analysis

  • Radecliffe
    commented on 's reply
    The LLW being able to cast smite on the whole party en masse was very convenient. The only issues with buffs related to LoS issues. The LLW couldn't see the cyborg for most of the combat with the greater demon was on top of building and blocked line of sight. The PA Ace was closer to the edge of the building so could get his mini-missiles smited. The fact that the greater demon did not take half damage from non-magic sources also meant the cyborg could still hurt it even without smite. Not hurt it a LOT or anything but I think I got a Shake and a Wound using a Giant Vibro Sword and no buffs except the HTH wiring cybernetics.

  • operations
    commented on 's reply
    Very nice analysis Tribe of One and still hoping that PEGRoberson takes these concerns into account before the final print.

  • operations
    commented on 's reply
    Agreed. I hope that PEGRoberson is reading many of these concerns and taking them to heart, and maybe tones down the escalation of armor and weapons a bit for the final release.

  • Venatus Vinco
    commented on 's reply
    We certainly had some bad luck of our own as well.

    Interestingly, with only a power armor and cyborg as heavy hitters a greater demon was a tough challenge. Smite for its weakness helped equalize things.

    Also, the T-31 Super Trooper is a great little anti-armor unit.

    VV

  • Ndreare
    replied
    So we had another fight again today in a couple battles.
    One battle was mooks versus players and the players eliminated them all in round 2. This was about what I expected in previous rifts.
    Second Battle I through a Greater Demon at them and lowered his Parry Bonus to +2, and his Toughness to 25 (5). The Demon dominated for 5 rounds, wounding multiple players, but in the end after using 7 bennies went to 2 wounds and 3 players left in the round. So he was basically dead. We finished the game before the players took their rolls, but we all agreed he was toast at that point so 5 rounds for a Greater Demon with 1 mook per PC.

    Overall I am thinking my Tuesday night game was all bad luck and poor rolls.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tribe of One
    commented on 's reply
    It's basic math: You take the averages that I posted, and add them together. I've posted those sums. If you really want to double-check them, feel free. I posted the results so it's easier to scan.

    If you don't trust my math -- do your own, then feel free to argue against the findings. Until then, why should we take your arguments seriously?

    As for the CK, Str d8 + Spirit d8 (boosted to d12 via Boost Trait) IS a very basic profile. If your CK doesn't have that, along with Improved Psi-Sword, by mid-way through Seasoned rank, you're purposefully trying to be an outlier. Can you also make a Glitter Boy that never puts points in Shooting? Sure, but I'm not going to waste time statting one up for comparisons.

  • Radecliffe
    commented on 's reply
    I guess it's hard to take seriously when you call d10 + 2d12 an "average" CK sword. You allow your biases to influence your stats so even if everything else is spot on I just can't take it seriously until independent verification is made. Plus you don't include any math which makes it impossible to do any proofing without reverse engineering your work which takes time. Sorry if that upsets you but that's the way I see it.

  • Tribe of One
    commented on 's reply
    I don't know why it's such a difficult concept, but: I compared the baseline from SR1.0 to the baseline in SR2.0. In both cases, there were things you could do (called shots, 3RB, raises, Smite, support-type actions) to kick your damage up a notch. That has not significantly changed. What HAS changed is the baseline damage vs. common enemies w/infantry weapons. So, yes, you can use all the same old tactics to boost damage. But overall you'll have to expend more effort/rounds to kill the same number of mooks. A little bit of that could be a good thing -- I wouldn't mind extending combats out closer to 5 rounds. Beyond that it becomes a grind. And if your Wild Cards and other interesting opponents (ie., not mooks) are still dying just as quickly (at the hands of the OP brigade/GBs/CKs) is a 4-round combat more fun than a 2-round combat?

    As I explained above in response to ValhallaGH, MOAR DAMAGE is not the answer for either the Dragon or CK. That just creates a problem at the low end of the Toughness curve. All you need is more AP, their existing damage dice are more than capable of putting a Wound or two on something once they get past the armor. If you just layer on more damage, they still may not wound the big guy but will vaporize Wild Cards.
    Last edited by Tribe of One; 09-13-2019, 05:39 PM.

  • Ndreare
    commented on 's reply
    I already stated in hangouts, but mussed have not stated here, it was a grind, the heroes where also well armored/defended, and came out fine at the end of combat they had no wounds. Sure they suffered a wound, but that was healed in the same turn.

    We have another play test tonight were we are delberatly testing combat again.

  • Radecliffe
    replied
    I'm afraid I can't agree with your doom and gloom assessment for the most part. There are a number of options to get damage up far enough to shake or wound grunts, skelebots, dog boys, etc. and taking two shots to put a mook down isn't bad unless you having issues generating a hit at all. I certainly don't want laser rifles being able to Shake or Wound a SAMAS on an average roll.

    I'm not saying that there aren't adjustments to be made. The fact that pistols really aren't worth much right now unless you are fighting non-armored opponents that are also not MDC and that doesn't happen much. Rifles without 3RB damage bonus (and the boosted damage bonus in Rifts rather than the standard +1 from core) are not much use either without magical assistance, a higher static damage value or more AP. If I have a d8 shooting and need an above average damage roll so that I have about a 40% chance to roll enough damage to Shake my target that means with a given shot I only have a 20% chance to actually do that.

    I also disagree with the pessimism of having to shoot a target twice to get a kill. There are any number of ways to mitigate or eliminate map to the point that 2 actions can be devoted to shooting without impairing the chance to hit.

    Now, one thing I haven't seen discussed is what are we getting for the increased combat duration? Is it more of a challenge or is it just more of a grind. If it is the former I think that's a good thing even if too much of a good thing is still a bad thing. If it is the latter then that is bad. Then there is the question of if this issue is at least partly due to the fact that GM's haven't found the new balance yet. Even here Ndreare's said he's had his group do this same fight more than once in the past. Maybe looking at the force composition under the new rules are going to need adjustment.

    The main takeaway i have so far is that pistols and standard rifles without 3RB are not of much use so either they need a boost or some of the mooks do need to be tweaked a bit Otherwise why give a CK a NG-LG 5 except so he can use it as a club when he doesn't want to whip out the psi-sword for code of honor reasons.

    BTW still TEAM CYBER-KNIGHT. They are perfectly fine. Leave them alone.

    You are right though. Martial Arts for Dragons is silly. I'd give them an iconic edge they can take once per rank to increase their unarmed damage by one die type.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tribe of One
    commented on 's reply
    And it's a giant PitA for GM who wants enemy Wild Cards to stick around past the CK's first action. Which is dumb. There's virtually nothing in the books short of a robot or equivalently-sized demon that can engage in a duel with a CK. Without an astronomical Parry or Deflection and a lot of luck (or PC out of Bennies), one round of Imp. Frenzy from the CK and they'll have sustained an unsoakable number of Wounds.
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