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Combat taking way longer (like 11 rounds)...

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  • #16
    So my SWADE is coming tomorrow and I am using a vacation day to stay home and we will do another run (this time on roll20.net)

    I will do an adventure for some seasoned characters. And see if it swings back and forth, or stays long.



    EDIT ON FRIDAY THE 13th:
    So we had another fight again today in a couple battles.
    One battle was mooks versus players and the players eliminated them all in round 2. This was about what I expected in previous rifts.
    Second Battle I through a Greater Demon at them and lowered his Parry Bonus to +2, and his Toughness to 25 (5). The Demon dominated for 5 rounds, wounding multiple players, but in the end after using 7 bennies went to 2 wounds and 3 players left in the round. So he was basically dead. We finished the game before the players took their rolls, but we all agreed he was toast at that point so 5 rounds for a Greater Demon with 1 mook per PC.

    Overall I am thinking my Tuesday night game was all bad luck and poor rolls.
    Last edited by Ndreare; 09-14-2019, 06:46 AM.

    Comment


    • PEGRoberson
      PEGRoberson commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks for the updated feedback. I give your opinions a lot of weight and consideration.

  • #17
    I ran a modern game recently. We noticed that foes in Kevlar with plate, you pretty much needed to shot them twice, once to shake, once to wound. and 3rb was very popular.

    if that's what is happening in SavRifts, well, it's consistent. Weather it's good is another question

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    • #18
      Well 3RB is a more attractive option than going RoF 3 and burning through 10 shots with each action. I hadn't noticed that RoF used up that many rounds. I'm glad that rail guns have their own rules. I think they are now the best spray and pray weapon in Rifts. At least the most ammo efficient.

      Comment


      • #19
        Okay, I crunched a bunch of numbers comparing the damage various weapons inflict vs. Coalition mooks (Dog Boys, Grunts, Skelebots, SAMAS and UAR-1) in SR1.0 vs. SR2.0 (as of the SFoNA playtest update). Here's the Google sheet.

        Interestingly, it's not an across-the-board problem. Heavy weapons (including WMDs like the Boom Gun and Mary Sue, er, Cyber-Knight's psi-sword) fare just as well as before, while everyone else is a step (or two) down.

        Notably, Bursters took a big hit in combat effectiveness (not even getting into the increased ISP costs). Their basic Flame Bolt can barely Shake a Dog Boy on an average hit and is useless against anything else, and their more powerful Bolts are less effective while costing more in ISP and Edge investments. Same for other casters trying to lob Bolts/Blasts/etc. Upper end damage potential is a bit higher if you're willing to sink a ton of Edges into the Blaster chain. But it's overkill -- your 14 PP super Bolt isn't any more effective at killing mooks than a 4 PP Greater Bolt under the old rules.

        Melee is a step or two worse for everyone but CKs and Dragons. Anyone who isn't a close combat specialist with d12+ Strength (ie. Juicer, Borg, someone in Gladius or Combat Mage armor) will struggle to do more than Shake low-level infantry (and won't even do that vs. Skelebots or PA), and there's virtually no reason* to use any weapon other than the biggest vibro-sword you can lift. (*A couple of weapons like the chainsaws that get big Raise damage dice have a small advantage IF, and only if, you can reliably get Raises).

        Pistols and most rifles also are about a step worse, Shaking when they used to Wound. (As with melee, it's probably not even worth trying to shoot a pistol at anything tougher than a Dog Boy). The top-tier, high ROF laser rifles still do okay, although you'll be running through e-clips at a steady pace.

        Overall, pretty much anyone who isn't a special snowflake (GB, CK or Dragon) or toting a heavy weapon (P-Beam or plasma rifle, rail gun or auto-GL) needs a Raise, bonus damage from Smite or some other boost (3RB, etc.) to kill mooks as well as they did in SR1.0. (And with the setting rule limiting you to inflicting no more than 4 Wounds with a single attack, taking out Wild Cards will be harder, as well).You may be able to somewhat mitigate the downgrade by shooting multiple times (Inflicting Shaken, then Wound by Shaking again) but you'll be incurring a MAP or recoil penalty, which could significantly cut your chances of hitting if you don't have a way to offset it.

        And you'll be burning through ammo as mentioned above.

        ALSO: To be clear, I like the Toughness boosts and other rebalancing that was done in the SFoNA playtest update. But I think they highlight the overzealous downgrading of damage in some areas. Bursters and other spellslingers need a little love (mainly a break on PP costs, and probably condensing the Blaster chain into 2 Edges instead of 3); we need to bring back some melee weapons with higher-tier damage (ie. better than the vibro-sword baseline); and maybe dial the damage/AP of infantry weapons (pistols + rifles) up just a few (2-4?) points.

        ALSO ALSO: Is it not obvious by now that Cyber-Knights are frickin' ridiculous? And dragons DO NOT need access to Brawler/Martial Artist/Etc.
        Last edited by Tribe of One; 09-13-2019, 06:37 AM.

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        • Tribe of One
          Tribe of One commented
          Editing a comment
          And it's a giant PitA for GM who wants enemy Wild Cards to stick around past the CK's first action. Which is dumb. There's virtually nothing in the books short of a robot or equivalently-sized demon that can engage in a duel with a CK. Without an astronomical Parry or Deflection and a lot of luck (or PC out of Bennies), one round of Imp. Frenzy from the CK and they'll have sustained an unsoakable number of Wounds.

        • operations
          operations commented
          Editing a comment
          Very nice analysis Tribe of One and still hoping that PEGRoberson takes these concerns into account before the final print.

        • PEGRoberson
          PEGRoberson commented
          Editing a comment
          Im reading guys. Thanks for the feedback!

      • #20
        I'm afraid I can't agree with your doom and gloom assessment for the most part. There are a number of options to get damage up far enough to shake or wound grunts, skelebots, dog boys, etc. and taking two shots to put a mook down isn't bad unless you having issues generating a hit at all. I certainly don't want laser rifles being able to Shake or Wound a SAMAS on an average roll.

        I'm not saying that there aren't adjustments to be made. The fact that pistols really aren't worth much right now unless you are fighting non-armored opponents that are also not MDC and that doesn't happen much. Rifles without 3RB damage bonus (and the boosted damage bonus in Rifts rather than the standard +1 from core) are not much use either without magical assistance, a higher static damage value or more AP. If I have a d8 shooting and need an above average damage roll so that I have about a 40% chance to roll enough damage to Shake my target that means with a given shot I only have a 20% chance to actually do that.

        I also disagree with the pessimism of having to shoot a target twice to get a kill. There are any number of ways to mitigate or eliminate map to the point that 2 actions can be devoted to shooting without impairing the chance to hit.

        Now, one thing I haven't seen discussed is what are we getting for the increased combat duration? Is it more of a challenge or is it just more of a grind. If it is the former I think that's a good thing even if too much of a good thing is still a bad thing. If it is the latter then that is bad. Then there is the question of if this issue is at least partly due to the fact that GM's haven't found the new balance yet. Even here Ndreare's said he's had his group do this same fight more than once in the past. Maybe looking at the force composition under the new rules are going to need adjustment.

        The main takeaway i have so far is that pistols and standard rifles without 3RB are not of much use so either they need a boost or some of the mooks do need to be tweaked a bit Otherwise why give a CK a NG-LG 5 except so he can use it as a club when he doesn't want to whip out the psi-sword for code of honor reasons.

        BTW still TEAM CYBER-KNIGHT. They are perfectly fine. Leave them alone.

        You are right though. Martial Arts for Dragons is silly. I'd give them an iconic edge they can take once per rank to increase their unarmed damage by one die type.

        Comment


        • Tribe of One
          Tribe of One commented
          Editing a comment
          I don't know why it's such a difficult concept, but: I compared the baseline from SR1.0 to the baseline in SR2.0. In both cases, there were things you could do (called shots, 3RB, raises, Smite, support-type actions) to kick your damage up a notch. That has not significantly changed. What HAS changed is the baseline damage vs. common enemies w/infantry weapons. So, yes, you can use all the same old tactics to boost damage. But overall you'll have to expend more effort/rounds to kill the same number of mooks. A little bit of that could be a good thing -- I wouldn't mind extending combats out closer to 5 rounds. Beyond that it becomes a grind. And if your Wild Cards and other interesting opponents (ie., not mooks) are still dying just as quickly (at the hands of the OP brigade/GBs/CKs) is a 4-round combat more fun than a 2-round combat?

          As I explained above in response to ValhallaGH, MOAR DAMAGE is not the answer for either the Dragon or CK. That just creates a problem at the low end of the Toughness curve. All you need is more AP, their existing damage dice are more than capable of putting a Wound or two on something once they get past the armor. If you just layer on more damage, they still may not wound the big guy but will vaporize Wild Cards.
          Last edited by Tribe of One; 09-13-2019, 05:39 PM.

        • Radecliffe
          Radecliffe commented
          Editing a comment
          I guess it's hard to take seriously when you call d10 + 2d12 an "average" CK sword. You allow your biases to influence your stats so even if everything else is spot on I just can't take it seriously until independent verification is made. Plus you don't include any math which makes it impossible to do any proofing without reverse engineering your work which takes time. Sorry if that upsets you but that's the way I see it.

        • Tribe of One
          Tribe of One commented
          Editing a comment
          It's basic math: You take the averages that I posted, and add them together. I've posted those sums. If you really want to double-check them, feel free. I posted the results so it's easier to scan.

          If you don't trust my math -- do your own, then feel free to argue against the findings. Until then, why should we take your arguments seriously?

          As for the CK, Str d8 + Spirit d8 (boosted to d12 via Boost Trait) IS a very basic profile. If your CK doesn't have that, along with Improved Psi-Sword, by mid-way through Seasoned rank, you're purposefully trying to be an outlier. Can you also make a Glitter Boy that never puts points in Shooting? Sure, but I'm not going to waste time statting one up for comparisons.

      • #21
        So we had another fight again today in a couple battles.
        One battle was mooks versus players and the players eliminated them all in round 2. This was about what I expected in previous rifts.
        Second Battle I through a Greater Demon at them and lowered his Parry Bonus to +2, and his Toughness to 25 (5). The Demon dominated for 5 rounds, wounding multiple players, but in the end after using 7 bennies went to 2 wounds and 3 players left in the round. So he was basically dead. We finished the game before the players took their rolls, but we all agreed he was toast at that point so 5 rounds for a Greater Demon with 1 mook per PC.

        Overall I am thinking my Tuesday night game was all bad luck and poor rolls.

        Comment


        • Venatus Vinco
          Venatus Vinco commented
          Editing a comment
          We certainly had some bad luck of our own as well.

          Interestingly, with only a power armor and cyborg as heavy hitters a greater demon was a tough challenge. Smite for its weakness helped equalize things.

          Also, the T-31 Super Trooper is a great little anti-armor unit.

          VV

        • Radecliffe
          Radecliffe commented
          Editing a comment
          The LLW being able to cast smite on the whole party en masse was very convenient. The only issues with buffs related to LoS issues. The LLW couldn't see the cyborg for most of the combat with the greater demon was on top of building and blocked line of sight. The PA Ace was closer to the edge of the building so could get his mini-missiles smited. The fact that the greater demon did not take half damage from non-magic sources also meant the cyborg could still hurt it even without smite. Not hurt it a LOT or anything but I think I got a Shake and a Wound using a Giant Vibro Sword and no buffs except the HTH wiring cybernetics.

      • #22
        Note: Last night my daughter chose to play Deadlands Darkages, so not new information related to Rifts.

        But we will be doing a Chase and a huge Vehicle+Robot combat on Thursday.

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