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  • Combat taking way longer (like 11 rounds)...

    So we only did one combat last night. But the higher toughness and lower damage has made it so combat takes a lot longer. Basically you wait for the Cyber-knight to kill it, or hope to get lucky.

    Has anyone had a chance to play a few combats and see if this is a one off experience I had or if this is a recurring state for the new dynamic created by higher NPC defenses?


  • #2
    In my limited experience, it appears to be the new normal.
    Player characters are less powerful at creation, damage values are either the same or lower, and armor values (and subsequently Toughness) is generally higher. Barring tactics like Called Shot, most characters can't reliably one-shot foes. Even using Called Shots generally necessitates someone make the target Vulnerable before hand, meaning each Extra is consuming the actions of two player characters.
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ValhallaGH View Post
      In my limited experience, it appears to be the new normal.
      Player characters are less powerful at creation, damage values are either the same or lower, and armor values (and subsequently Toughness) is generally higher. Barring tactics like Called Shot, most characters can't reliably one-shot foes. Even using Called Shots generally necessitates someone make the target Vulnerable before hand, meaning each Extra is consuming the actions of two player characters.

      This is a real bummer. The one of the biggest strengths of Savage Worlds is the Fast in Fast Furious Fun, and being able to field giant battles of 5 layers versus 30 enemies. I really do not like it going away. I may have to start doing some house rules, I do not want it to go the route of D&D and spend a whole con session on one battle that takes.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think this may just be the nature of the setting. The concept of Mega-damage is something unique to the Palladium Rifts game system and was adopted to a certain extent here in Savage Rifts with the combinations of high toughness and/or heavy armor.

        So we must set our expectations accordingly. Opponent Toughness should be one of the most important criteria for setting encounter difficulty. I think people most accustomed to the rest of the Savage Worlds settings would have the steepest learning curve, whereas people coming to Savage Rifts from Palladium have an easier time with it.

        In other words, until your player characters have had an opportunity to obtain more advanced weaponry, power armor and robot vehicles, you as the GM have to keep a lid on the toughness of the opponents they face. Otherwise combats will require numerous raises just to scratch the tough opponents, and we should never design our encounters around such mechanics.

        Edit: And yes, the player characters in Rifts settings will have to deal with disparate power levels and inequality of effectiveness. This was true in Palladium Rifts and has apparently proved true in Savage Rifts as well. We can only hope that GMs will offer enough diversity in content and encounters to allow all player characters a chance to share the limelight over the course of the campaign.
        Last edited by Portentious; 09-12-2019, 12:05 AM.

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        • Ndreare
          Ndreare commented
          Editing a comment
          I come from both systems and abandoned Palladium because of my frustration with endless battles.

          Also, note the characters are Heoic, being the characters they have played for a while, just rebuilt in SWADE.

      • #5
        A simple house rule of granting an extra HJ roll or 2 should solve this problem.

        Comment


        • Radecliffe
          Radecliffe commented
          Editing a comment
          Yeah, because that bump to Athletics and good set of climbing gear for 4 is totally going to buff up my character. Rolling randomly on HJ table is not the way to boost PC's combat effectiveness. Choosing optimum results might but not random unless you just happen to get lucky. Not the most efficient solution IMHO.

        • Tribe of One
          Tribe of One commented
          Editing a comment
          HJ rolls only offer an improvement in ranged combat -- the nerfing of melee weapons to all be equivalent or worse than vibro-weapons removed any sort of higher tier/more expensive melee options that can be obtained with character creation resources (HJ rolls) or through play. If you don't have a Mary Sue ... ahem, Cyber-Knight ... in your group, good luck getting much of anything done in melee.

        • Ndreare
          Ndreare commented
          Editing a comment
          For the record these characters are all heroic. Their next advance will be their first legendary advance, so access to gear is not their problem.

          The problem is the new power distribution.

          To be direct in this. It is like they where trying to simulate the 4 hours of misery & grind fest found in a big Palladium fight, by lowering damage and raising armor at the same time. Tweaking damage down and toughness up only has one possible effect, and the result is horrible from a play experience.

      • #6
        Aren't PCs, with IF a cut above joe citizen? Heck, start them against bandits and such, let them be bad-asses for a while. then pull out the bigger foes.

        The bandit is Savage Foes has Toughness 11(5)

        Comment


        • #7
          Not sure if it’s the optimal way to do things, but those large combats can still be fast.

          if there’s a large group of enemies that need to be taken out you could run a quick encounter, with a lot of narrative fun about how the heroes did really cool stuff to thin the heard. Then transition into the battle w the big bad.

          It might get old if it became a common tactic, but should work well when needed I would think.

          Comment


          • Ndreare
            Ndreare commented
            Editing a comment
            This ignores one of the great strengths of Savage Worlds in order to import a weakness of Palladium.

            I do not consider it a valid solution.

        • #8
          Originally posted by Portentious View Post
          Edit: And yes, the player characters in Rifts settings will have to deal with disparate power levels and inequality of effectiveness. This was true in Palladium Rifts and has apparently proved true in Savage Rifts as well. We can only hope that GMs will offer enough diversity in content and encounters to allow all player characters a chance to share the limelight over the course of the campaign.
          SR1.0 did not have this problem and I do not think we have to tolerate it in SR2.0. One of the greatest strengths of SR has been the potential for diverse characters to survive together and contribute (even in combat) to a far greater degree than in Palladium Rifts. However, the rebalancing of damage (ie. melee nerfs, nerfs to Bursters and blasting, etc.) and boosts to Toughness, combined with improvements in Savage Foes (many of which I like) have thrown off the balance and moved things closer to Palladium Rifts (which I very much DON'T like).

          SR1.0 combats tended to average 2 rounds, sometimes three with a little work. I wouldn't mind seeing that range stretched closer to 3-5, but more than that and it turns into a slog. And unlike D&D, where the players at least get the positive feedback of slowly carving off enemy Hit Points, in SW it's just a string of low damage rolls until someone finally aces enough to inflict enough wounds they can't be soaked ...

          Comment


          • operations
            operations commented
            Editing a comment
            Agreed. I hope that PEGRoberson is reading many of these concerns and taking them to heart, and maybe tones down the escalation of armor and weapons a bit for the final release.

        • #9
          I am wondering how the players were armed and what were they up against?

          Comment


          • #10
            I'm wondering at the tactics used. Did the casters do any buffing at the start of the fight? Now you can buff the whole party in one shot with most powers using the additional targets mod. Buffing with Smite, Speed or Boost Trait can be a big advantage. In SR 1.0 you usually couldn't buff more than one person at a time.

            Also, you used to only be able to attack with a weapon or power once per round. Now you can attack up to three times a round and there are a number of ways to mitigate MAP.

            Not saying there might not be a problem but I'm not yet convinced there is one yet either.

            Comment


            • #11
              There seems to be an assumption now that all groups will include a support caster that's layering buffs on other PCs. While that might be easier in SWADE, I'd rather it not be part of the base assumption. Unlike D&D, where it's more or less assumed each of the classic roles will be filled, I don't expect an SR group to include any particular mix. I'd rather the baseline assume no particular specialties, allowing the GM to make alterations for their own group's strengths, rather than force the GM into monkeying with the baseline damage/Toughness relationships because they lack some level of support casting or combat specialization that the designers have assumed (without explanation).

              Comment


              • #12
                Just add an extra dice of damage for everyone's weapons if you think a change needs to be made. You are the GM feel free to up the damage.

                Comment


                • Tribe of One
                  Tribe of One commented
                  Editing a comment
                  As a paying customer of a Kickstarted rpg *that's still in playtesting* I expect the game to be balanced so that I don't have to house rule across-the-board damage increases to get it to do what it says on the tin (ie. "Fast, Furious, Fun")

                • ogbendog
                  ogbendog commented
                  Editing a comment
                  As you said, it's still in playtesting; it's not done. This is exactly the feedback they need, to figure out if something needs to be changed

              • #13
                What I would like is feedback from other who have also run fights using the new stats. I am not worried about one single experience so much as the general experience of multiple battles compared to previous encounters.
                Was this a one off thing, that will do away after next Tuesday (assuming they do another fight) or will this be a recurring new normal and everyone will just have to accept that we have moved so far from the Savage Worlds baseline it is no longer like a Savage Worlds fight?


                Micro responses to the above:
                1) The team was well armed and well prepared. Everyone had access to good gear (mostly captured CS gear) and TW gear.
                2) Yes buffs where used. (But i agree with Tribe of One bove, this is not a class based game the assumption should not be on buffs.)
                3) The players where up against a CS Platoon. This is a battle they have had several times (about half a dozen) already. So I though it would be a good scenario for testing their new builds. (1 Officer, 3 Troops units, 1 Psi unit. Two of the NPCs where wild cards built like PCs, the Psi-Stalker/Mind Melter, and the Lieutenant/Headhunter)

                Comment


                • #14
                  Originally posted by Tribe of One View Post

                  SR1.0 did not have this problem and I do not think we have to tolerate it in SR2.0. One of the greatest strengths of SR has been the potential for diverse characters to survive together and contribute (even in combat) to a far greater degree than in Palladium Rifts. However, the rebalancing of damage (ie. melee nerfs, nerfs to Bursters and blasting, etc.) and boosts to Toughness, combined with improvements in Savage Foes (many of which I like) have thrown off the balance and moved things closer to Palladium Rifts (which I very much DON'T like).

                  SR1.0 combats tended to average 2 rounds, sometimes three with a little work. I wouldn't mind seeing that range stretched closer to 3-5, but more than that and it turns into a slog. And unlike D&D, where the players at least get the positive feedback of slowly carving off enemy Hit Points, in SW it's just a string of low damage rolls until someone finally aces enough to inflict enough wounds they can't be soaked ...
                  Interesting. As I've not play tested SR 2.0 yet, I'll have to take your word for it until I do. The idea of a combat consisting of waiting for someone to ace enough seems like a poor design. Either that poor design is at the game level or at the encounter level, or both, I think it would be proper for the game designers to take a look at it with this feedback in mind. And even if it is only the result of poor encounter design by the GM, I think PEG would be well-served to discuss it in the GM Guide at the very least.

                  Comment


                  • ogbendog
                    ogbendog commented
                    Editing a comment
                    You aren't supposed to wait to Ace. You are supposed to use Tests to make them Vulnerable and/or Shaken, Support to help you heavy hitters hit, Called shots to go for vulnerable spots, etc.

                  • Tribe of One
                    Tribe of One commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Requiring multiple characters to spend actions so one other PC can take out a goon doesn't sound like fun to me.

                  • ogbendog
                    ogbendog commented
                    Editing a comment
                    to some degree, I agree. two teaming up to take out a goon, might be OK, for a bad-*** goon. more than that does seem off

                • #15
                  A CS Grunt is 15(7) and a Skelebot is 17(7) in the updated playtest version of SFoNA. With a standard laser rifle (e.g. Wilk's 447: 3d6, AP 4) you can reliably Shake a grunt with an average roll of (12.59) but need a little help (avg + 1) to Shake a Skelebot.

                  Using a pulse laser rifle (e.g. L-20: 3d6, AP 4, RoF 3, 3RB) you can wound a grunt with two hits (out of three) on average damage OR you can use 3RB (+1 Shooting/+3 Damage, MD) to boost average damage to 15.59 which will Wound a grunt and Shake a Skelebot. To Wound the Skelebot you will need a slightly better than average roll (+2) or a buff such as Smite.

                  To my mind a big part of the solution is using more options to boost damage such as 3RB which, unfortunately, is going to increase ammo consumption.

                  An E-4 Plasma Ejector will make short work of either just so long as you can roll average damage.

                  That is key, of course, being able to get an average damage roll which isn't going to happen every time.

                  Comment


                  • Radecliffe
                    Radecliffe commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Pistols that have 3RB capability still do standard 3RB damage as far as I can tell. It's mostly rifles that got a boost to make them more competitive.

                  • ogbendog
                    ogbendog commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Huh, I never noticed that some weapons had enhanced 3RB.
                    some have +2 or even +3.
                    then there is the grenade launcher.

                  • PEGRoberson
                    PEGRoberson commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I appreciate the mathematical analysis
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