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Questions about quick flex Psi-Slingers and other instances of edge dulication.

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  • Questions about quick flex Psi-Slingers and other instances of edge dulication.

    So both the Quickflex and the pis slinger get ambidex and quick as part of their build. What if someone makes a quickflex psi-stalker? Or any race/IF combo that duplicates edges.

  • #2
    Currently, we don't know.
    Until PEGRoberson and his team clarify such interactions, the GM has to make something up.
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

    Comment


    • #3
      *quickflex psi-slinger...

      Also, what Val said. Probably just go with a themed replacement, like Two-Gun Kid, until an official answer/fix comes out.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yup (though, of course, Two-Gun Kid is out, because 'dem Psi-Slingers start with it anyway!)

        Whenever I bump into something like this, I ask the player to come up with replacements for the duplicate Edges. As long as they make sense, I approve them. I wouldn't let a player trade a duplicate Quick Edge for Killer Instinct, for example, but I wouldn't have an issue with them swapping in Fleet Footed (which would stack with the Quick-Flex's starting Pace bump), or perhaps Dodge or Free Runner, as Edges dealing with being quick in general.

        Comment


        • Deskepticon
          Deskepticon commented
          Editing a comment
          Ah, thanx.
          Don't have A&M, just the original SR books. I was just offering general advice.

      • #5
        I was wondering about this too, though for an Altaran Mystic who gets Alertness twice.

        Comment


        • #6
          I had a similar question about Skills, if you have an IF that grants a skill at say d6 and a Race that grants the same skill, do the two stack?

          Comment


          • #7
            Yeah, I'm hoping this gets answered in the next version of the TLPG, because it's a common question. For my games, I would give the player +2 skill points in the relevant skill to replace the duplicate d6, but YMMV until we get an official answer.

            Comment


            • #8
              My suggestion for an answer is the following.

              Duplicate Traits & Edges
              If the character creation process a character receives the same benefit from multiple sources. Such as Race and Iconic framework providing the same edge, or Hero's Journey roll providing a skill the Race or Iconic Framework already have. The player and game master should work together and agree a an appropriate replacement. The replacement should be related to the nature of the original intent.
              Example if a character rolls a heroes Journey result for Stealth d6, and the characters race already had Stealth d6, the game master and player may agree Thievery d6 is an appropriate replacement.

              Any ideas how to clean this up while keeping it small enough to fit in a book?

              Comment


              • tbone9581
                tbone9581 commented
                Editing a comment
                Maybe just to go with die type increases.

              • Freemage
                Freemage commented
                Editing a comment
                "Duplication During Creation: In the case where Iconic Framework abilities, Racial abilities and/or Hero's Journey Table rolls produce duplicate bonuses, the GM and Player should negotiate a reasonable substitution, which should reflect the original intent of the bonus. Thus, if both the race and HJ rolls, for instance, grand d6 Stealth, the character might receive the Thief Edge, instead."

                Personally I'd prefer the following general rules of thumb:
                Edges should be advanced along their Edge chain, if any, or to 2 bonus points to be spent on the appropriate Skill.
                Duplicate Skills should be converted to Skill points to be spent on the Skill in question.

              • Icedman
                Icedman commented
                Editing a comment
                I like @Freemage's comment here...

            • #9
              It would require a great deal of rewriting and reorganizing of the books, but a good fix would be to give the races a Trait die and Frameworks a static Trait bonus.

              So a Trimadore would get a free d6 Repair while the Operator gives +2 Repair.

              Comment


              • Ndreare
                Ndreare commented
                Editing a comment
                All the rewriting I think would be bad. That is why I am in favor of the sidebar like I quoted above.

              • Deskepticon
                Deskepticon commented
                Editing a comment
                Ndreare The TLPG just went through a massive rewrite, including a rebalancing of the races and IFs. Honestly, it was a missed opportunity not to address the issue of duplicate abilities from the get-go.

                The advice in your sidebar would still be valid because the "fix" I proposed doesn't address Edges or HJ rolls, so some GM arbitration is going to be needed.

            • #10
              Originally posted by Deskepticon View Post
              It would require a great deal of rewriting and reorganizing of the books, but a good fix would be to give the races a Trait die and Frameworks a static Trait bonus.

              So a Trimadore would get a free d6 Repair while the Operator gives +2 Repair.
              That does sound pretty good, but what about edges?

              Comment


              • Deskepticon
                Deskepticon commented
                Editing a comment
                Some GM arbitration will still be needed in such a front-loaded setting as Rifts. In this case, player and GM should agree on a similarly themed Edge.

              • Ndreare
                Ndreare commented
                Editing a comment
                This is why I provided example text above in the quote

            • #11
              So I unintentionally encountered this myself today, when dreaming up a Psi-Ghost "Gizmoteer"; gonna call it that so we don't confuse the character archetype with the Gadgeteer edge...

              Anyway, when trying to decide where the best bang for my buck was, I noticed that the SW team have "patched" this for Arcane Backgrounds that are granted by your choice of Race. In just about every one I can think of (note: I haven't trawled the books to verify completely) - Simvan, the Psi-Ghost, etc, if you apply an Iconic Framework with the same AB as your Racial AB, you get 2 free powers (ie: New Powers edge).

              So it's at least somewhat in mind...

              Comment


              • #12
                I think PEGRoberson is doing a heroic job, "de-conflicting" as much as possible. However, at a certain point we just have to let GMs make a call with their players.

                Hopefully, there will be guidance on doing this in the players and GMs books. Otherwise you'll need to revise the players guide every time a conflict pops up in a supplement.

                VV

                Comment


                • PEGRoberson
                  PEGRoberson commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Thanks man. We are peddling as fast as we can.

              • #13
                It should only take a fairly short paragraph. In case of skills do this... In the case of attributes do this... In case of edges do this...

                Comment


                • #14
                  The official answer is that duplicate Skills, Edges, Powers, etc are lost. Thats a core SWADE answer.

                  Personally I would work with a player for an appropriate replacement. Honestly, in a crazy game like Rifts the GM needs to be a little flexible when these edge cases come up. We have worked really hard at deconflicting this stuff, but its not a perfect game. Thanks guys!
                  Sean Owen Roberson
                  Line Editor, Rifts for Savage Worlds

                  Comment


                  • Scottbert
                    Scottbert commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Good to know the official answer even if we don't like it. Perhaps this, with or without the suggestion to work with the player to find alternatives, could be in the text somewhere? Just so it's not left in an ambiguous state by default. (I'd prefer finding alternates / letting some things stack, too, but I guess there are just too many edge cases to have everything covered by hard rules and balanced.)
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