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So ... about that Dragon Juicer

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Supergyro View Post
    Balancing such a thing is difficult to the point that I would argue near impossible.
    It's only difficult if you insist on trying to balance mechanical advantages with narrative/roleplay disadvantages. The majority of posts in this thread are saying you shouldn't do that, and should instead bring the mechanical advantages in line with other IFs. That isn't actually that hard, as evidenced by the many suggested nerfs and tweaks, but it does require moving away the original a bit, which was a classic PR example of power creep justified by handwaving and vague "narrative complications."

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    • #17
      My proposed change is simple: Take Super Reflexes, Super Speed and Uncanny Reflexes off the table. Dragon Juicers are super strong, super tough and super magical as are dragons but dragons are not super speedy in any way (not in SR anyway) so why are Dragon Juicers? Different cocktail, different abilities. This may be a departure from Classic but as said this is an actual attempt to balance the IF not just make a carbon copy of the original.

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      • pkitty
        pkitty commented
        Editing a comment
        Oh, that IS a good fix. And it keeps them from just being "juicers, but better." Flavor is good. Distinction is good.

    • #18
      Yeah, I like that approach. I'd probably let them keep their version of Super Speed (which was already nerfed a bit compared to the standard Juicer) and instead roll back their 1/round regeneration (which I think was perhaps a typo/artifact, anyway) to 1/day with regrowth. Assuming the Immunities confusion is fixed to clarify it only applies to cold/heat Hazards, that puts them right in line with regular Juicers (they were 16 points over; losing Super Reflexes is -6, Uncanny Reflexes is -4 and dialing back Regen is -6).

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      • #19
        Originally posted by Wanderingmystic View Post
        I am looking forward to seeing how mega juicers ans the like are handled in Empires of Humanity and if thoses are more balanced looming to make changed to the dragon juicer simmilar to hiw the other ones work.
        Like Dragon Juicers, Mega- and Titan-Juicer should be built as AB (Gifted) variants. You want the powers, spend the additional resources. I think that will keep them balanced with others. Same with the Delphi; you get a free helmet that allows you to take the normally unavailable AB (Psionics), but lose the flash and lose the flash.

        Hyperion and Phaetons can be effectively adapted with specific build priorities. They might be worth special Edges, but I'm not sure what they get that can't be modeled with "super-Agility," Alertness, Ace, etc.

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        • #20
          SUPER excited to see the Hyperion, Mega, Titan, Delphi, and Phaeton Juicer edges! Hope they get them all and do them justice.

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          • #21
            Dragon Juicer Abilities and Bonuses
            Dragon Juicers gain benefits from their TW bio-comp's steady drip of alchemy.
            Armored Hide: The transformation process grants +2 MDC Armor, which does stack with worn armor.
            Blood of Dragons: Dragon Juicers may make a natural healing roll daily to recover Wounds, or Injuries once all Wounds are healed.
            Burning Blood: The alchemical conversion process is grueling on the Dragon Juicer's body, and has destabilizing effects on the bio-comp system's effects. His starting Burn Rating is reduced by two points. In addition, his Burn Die is a d4 (instead of a normal Juicer's d6), and does not increase as he approaches Last Call.
            Dragonborn Senses: Dragon Juicers have the detect arcana power as an Innate Ability with the reduced Power Points cost from both the Range (Self) and Aspect limitations, and may Notice supernatural beings within line of sight. They also have Infravision, halving Illumination penalties against warm targets.
            Inherently Magical: Dragon Juicers possess a natural pool of 10 PPE and can use TW devices, though they cannot take Arcane Backgrounds.
            Speed: Dragon Juicers increase Pace by +2 and their running die by a die type.
            Strength of Dragons: Dragon Juicers begin with +2 Strength die types—with no Trait maximum—and begin with the Brawny Edge. They deal Mega Damage with all melee attacks.
            Super Endurance: Dragon Juicers begin with +2 Vigor die types; increase the Trait maximum accordingly. They sleep half the normal amount, gain +2 on Fatigue checks, and have Environmental Immunity to the Hazards of Cold, Disease, and Heat.
            Super Reflexes: Dragon Juicers begin with +1 Agility die type and increase the Trait maximum accordingly. They also begin with the Quick Edge.
            Uncanny Reflexes: Dragon Juicer reflexes are superhuman, granting −2 to be hit by any attack they are aware of and +2 on Evasion rolls.
            Dragon Juicer Complications
            Dragon Juicers deal with many burdens.
            Cybernetics: A Dragon Juicer' s body rejects cyberware and implants.
            Death Wish: Walk the same end-is-near path of all Juicers, begin with Death Wish (Minor).
            Dragon Blood is Life: The TW bio-comp system requires a pint of adult dragon blood every month to function, which must be either extracted from an unwilling (or slain) adult dragon, donated by an allied one, or purchased. The blood must be fresh and inserted directly into the TW bio-comp (which can store up to three pints of blood). If it can be purchased, a fresh pint of adult dragon's blood costs 2d4×5000 credits (−8 availability). However, most adult dragons have a bitter hatred for slayers of their kind, and loathe auctioning their life's blood to a techno-freak vampire. Instead of selling his blood for credits, an adult dragon is much more likely to trade it in exchange for services and favors—terrible ones. The first month without fresh blood, the Dragon Juicer suffers a permanent Fatigue level and must check Spirit or lose a point of Burn. The second month he is Exhausted and loses a Burn. The third month he loses another point of Burn and is Incapacitated (in a coma), dying at the end of that month. Nothing treats the Fatigue levels or coma except a fresh adult dragon's blood.
            Dragon-Related Disorder: Dragon's blood has a pernicious effect on the mental state. Select one of the following Hindrances (for no benefit): Bloodthirsty, Delusional (Major), Driven (Major), Greedy (Major), Habit (Major), Jealous (Major), Overconfident, Phobia (Major), Ruthless (Major) or Vengeful (Major). Delusions or Phobias must be related to dragons in some way. If Driven, he has an urge to hunt and slay (non-ally/evil) dragons and supernatural creatures. Dragon Juicers gains a random additional Hindrance from the list each time they achieve a new Rank (roll d10).
            Drug-induced Euphoria/Tranquility: The bio-comp supplies a combination of drugs and chemicals to keep Juicers living in a state somewhere between mildly ecstatic and stoned. This causes −1 to all Smarts or Smarts-linked Skill rolls in non-combat or low stress situations. On the first round of an unexpected combat or high-stress situation, the Juicer doesn’t gain the benefits of Uncanny Reflexes or Quick.
            Many Enemies: Dragon Juicers are targets for the Coalition and those who violently reject all forms of the supernatural. They also draw the ire of the Federation of Magic and other societies holding dragons in high regard, where many view Dragon Juicers as vampiric abominations.
            Psionics and Magic: The alchemical cocktail in Juicers makes any use of magic or psionics impossible.
            Weakness: Anything dealing extra damage or effects to dragons has the same effect on a Dragon Juicer.
            This is probably it. Please discuss and share ideas. I want to make any corrections ASAP. Thanks ladies and gents, this playtest has been invaluable. YOU have been invaluable.
            Sean Owen Roberson
            Line Editor, Rifts for Savage Worlds

            Comment


            • magusrogue
              magusrogue commented
              Editing a comment
              Burning Blood seems a tad TOO harsh. It all but removes the Burn usefulness really. That might be my own two cents.

            • tbone9581
              tbone9581 commented
              Editing a comment
              Dude! I love it.

          • #22
            Looks good!

            Takes the over the top advantages off of speed and armor while up-ing the complications. Reducing Burn and Burn die is a good adjustment too and consistent with the new jucier edges in EoH.

            Typo: "Nothing treats the Fatigue levels or coma except a fresh adult dragon's blood."

            Should read "Nothing treats the Fatigue levels or coma except a fresh dose of adult dragon's blood."

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            • #23
              Ok, now with Empires of Humanity out, I got some reserved thoughts. The other Juicer variants are all now Edges you can take. What about Dragon Juicers can't be modeled in the same way? Do we need a full new IF, if EoH has shown us a simpler way of doing it?

              Comment


              • Radecliffe
                Radecliffe commented
                Editing a comment
                The Juicer edges basically changed one thing about the base juicer. I think Titan Juicer was probably the most involved changes. In this case however there is a lot to take in. With all the stuff about dragon's blood, the TW background and the number of alterations seems too bloated to me to be just an Edge. Sometimes it's as much about the flavor as the mechanics that require the IF treatment.

              • magusrogue
                magusrogue commented
                Editing a comment
                True. I can see this, now that you pointed it out. Its early in the morning and I haven't had coffee yet. :P

            • #24
              This is great, PEGRoberson ,addresses the issues and adds some teeth to the Hindrances. I actually think it swings a tad too far (4ish pts) the other way -- I'd let them keep the escalating Burn die, especially since you added the escalating madness to Dragon-Related Disorder. Maybe even give them back one Burn pt or the third bump to Strength, since that set them apart from vanilla Juicers.

              And like others have mentioned, it would be good to mention here or in EoH if these guys can take the juicer treatment edges.

              Comment


              • tbone9581
                tbone9581 commented
                Editing a comment
                All good things Tribe!

            • #25
              Missed the Dragon Disorder on the first read through. A a little too much crazy for me. With the other adjustment I'd leave it at taking one extra hindrance at creation and leave off the extra hindrance at each rank. Seems a little too overkill to me given the other changes.

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              • #26
                Originally posted by Tribe of One View Post
                This is great, PEGRoberson ,addresses the issues and adds some teeth to the Hindrances. I actually think it swings a tad too far (4ish pts) the other way -- I'd let them keep the escalating Burn die, especially since you added the escalating madness to Dragon-Related Disorder. Maybe even give them back one Burn pt or the third bump to Strength, since that set them apart from vanilla Juicers.

                And like others have mentioned, it would be good to mention here or in EoH if these guys can take the juicer treatment edges.
                Thanks Tribe of One if I do anything I will give them back regular Burn die and Last Call. The Dragon Disorder is meant to be punishing, and closer to lore. If yall think the pendulum swung too far let me know ASAP. Cheers!

                Sean Owen Roberson
                Line Editor, Rifts for Savage Worlds

                Comment


                • tbone9581
                  tbone9581 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Love the dragon disorders, please return the burn!

                • Psychonus
                  Psychonus commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Let the dragons burn!

                • magusrogue
                  magusrogue commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yup, return the burn. That was seriously my only complaint with your revision, Sean!

              • #27
                I'm a big fan of the changes, especially Dragon-Related Disorder. It's easy to say "that's too much like the Crazy" at first glance, but the actual list of available hindrances is so different that I don't think this character feels anything like a Crazy unless you deliberately choose to play it that way.

                The only thing that seems like a step too far is the Burning Blood. I think just reducing their Burn Points by 2 is good enough. Going any further than that ends up nerfing the "Juicer" part of them, which is the whole point of the I.F. With a Burn Die of d4 and no Last Call, you'd be a fool to ever use your Burn, which isn't any fun.

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                • #28
                  I agree with pkitty to keep the extra disorders and -2 burn while moving the burn dice back to normal feels perfect.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Done!

                    Burning Blood: The alchemical conversion process is grueling on the Dragon Juicer's body, and has destabilizing effects on the bio-comp system's effects. His starting Burn Rating is reduced by two points.
                    Sean Owen Roberson
                    Line Editor, Rifts for Savage Worlds

                    Comment


                    • tbone9581
                      tbone9581 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Love it!

                    • pkitty
                      pkitty commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I am so happy with this I.F. now!

                    • magusrogue
                      magusrogue commented
                      Editing a comment
                      PERFECT! Now, follow up question. Can Dragon Juicers take Juicer treatments? Like, say, can I have a Titan Dragon Juicer?
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