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  • Things on my mind about this forum and the rifts setting

    Hi,

    as I said in another post we just recently started with Savage Worlds Rifts and are somewhere around the 15 session now I think.
    That being said I have to get some stuff of my chest. And would love to get feedback on those things.

    1. The Forum is f'in great. A lot of interaction and community feedback and all that with polite interaction. That feels rather rare these days. Thanks to all the posters.

    2. Special thanks to PEGRoberson. Getting questions answered that fast and officialy is something I realy appreciate.

    3. I've read a lot of posts in the three rifts sections and for whatever reason I feel like we are playing a different game.

    a. For example I read that combat is usualy 2-3 turns. That's seems to be at least partly because people make heavy use of the 3 actions that you can get max. and because builds are optimized a lot. But in our group (of 3; Burster, CombatCyborg, TW) almost nobody ever even takes a second action a turn much less a third because of the high penatly on the roll. Therefor a fight takes more like 8-12 rounds of combat for us. And that felt completly normal for me, much like any other RPG we played so it realy irritated me to see that we seem to be the exception.

    b. Next example is the economy. I read a couple of threads about for example artefact economy, the cost of recharging E-Clips etc. and I felt like we are "doing something wrong". First of all the prices in the book irritated me, because compared to the money we earn by working for the Tommorow Legion it is all ridiculously expensive.
    We are basicly highly qualified specialists, even if we are not working in our speciality for to long, seeing that you have to save up all your hard earned money for 9-12 month (we get around 2k a month) to be able to replace even a standard armor (PlasticMan or Huntsmen) seems kind of ridiculous.
    Then the OP of the artefact economy post suggested up to thousends of credits for the work of a highly skilled TW PER DAY and I was like, "I've just started playing, but that sounds extremely far of." Interstingly nobody seemed to bother by those numbers.
    So IF even just 1k a day would be possible for a TW, why would anyone work for the Tomorrow Legion? Our GM said there are official numbers about how much an "employe" of the Tomorrow Legion earns.
    I'm playing the TW and I'm having fun improvizing Gadgets on the fly whenever we need them (and that's almost never in combat, so I personaly didn't see a problem in the TW action-economy thread either),
    but half or probably more like 2/3 of what seemed cool about a TW is cut short if you dont have huge amounts of money to spend. I mean even 1 major upgrade for a TW item would mean you have to save up ALL your payment you get for 5 month to pay for it, TW conversion not even included.
    So how much is an appropriat amount of money to flow towards a PC in lets say a month?

    c. For some reason when I read the forum it seems to me like Rifts is more of a game mechanical combat game then a RPG. For example in a thread about Dragon Juicers it was stated that the need for dragon blood does not offset the game mechanical boni they get in combat because they are relevant every session while the dragon blood isn't. In my opinion (and it's just that) that's far from the truth. First of all there isn't neccesarily a combat every session. I mean of all the different szenarios I can think of (social mingling, detective work, outdoor survival, etc) combat is just one out of a huge amount of situations to be in, so the amount of times the combat relevant bonis are of interest is relativly low. Now WHEN combat strikes they may have an impact, but even then I think having a point less on this or that (for a normal juicer) is not nearly as threatening as having to not only find a adult dragon (which seems like a quest itself) but also having to get blood from him, which is either a potential deadly encounter, or in the rare case of them giving it freely, having to work for him which basicly means you dont work for the Tomorrow Legion anymore, but are the (powerfull) lakey of a dragon just to feed your addiction.

    4. Just because it happened to me multiple times while writing this post, at some point for some reason a info pops up that there is a server connection problem with the PEGForum and if you dont watch out, it highlights your written text after shutting it down, so when you just want to continue writing suddenly your whole text so far is gone.

  • #2
    Originally posted by R-Cane View Post

    a. For example I read that combat is usualy 2-3 turns. That's seems to be at least partly because people make heavy use of the 3 actions that you can get max. and because builds are optimized a lot. But in our group (of 3; Burster, CombatCyborg, TW) almost nobody ever even takes a second action a turn much less a third because of the high penatly on the roll. Therefor a fight takes more like 8-12 rounds of combat for us. And that felt completly normal for me, much like any other RPG we played so it realy irritated me to see that we seem to be the exception.
    You have a TW in the group. Have him throw out an Exalted Quickness on everyone, and combat starts to go much faster.

    Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
    b. Next example is the economy. I read a couple of threads about for example artefact economy, the cost of recharging E-Clips etc. and I felt like we are "doing something wrong". First of all the prices in the book irritated me, because compared to the money we earn by working for the Tommorow Legion it is all ridiculously expensive.
    We are basicly highly qualified specialists, even if we are not working in our speciality for to long, seeing that you have to save up all your hard earned money for 9-12 month (we get around 2k a month) to be able to replace even a standard armor (PlasticMan or Huntsmen) seems kind of ridiculous.
    Then the OP of the artefact economy post suggested up to thousends of credits for the work of a highly skilled TW PER DAY and I was like, "I've just started playing, but that sounds extremely far of." Interstingly nobody seemed to bother by those numbers.
    So IF even just 1k a day would be possible for a TW, why would anyone work for the Tomorrow Legion? Our GM said there are official numbers about how much an "employe" of the Tomorrow Legion earns.
    I'm playing the TW and I'm having fun improvizing Gadgets on the fly whenever we need them (and that's almost never in combat, so I personaly didn't see a problem in the TW action-economy thread either),
    but half or probably more like 2/3 of what seemed cool about a TW is cut short if you dont have huge amounts of money to spend. I mean even 1 major upgrade for a TW item would mean you have to save up ALL your payment you get for 5 month to pay for it, TW conversion not even included.
    So how much is an appropriat amount of money to flow towards a PC in lets say a month?
    The Legion pay is the baseline. I suspect most groups, including my own, augment their income by looting their enemy's corpses and selling the product on the market. Cash starts flowing really quickly if you do that.

    Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
    c. For some reason when I read the forum it seems to me like Rifts is more of a game mechanical combat game then a RPG. For example in a thread about Dragon Juicers it was stated that the need for dragon blood does not offset the game mechanical boni they get in combat because they are relevant every session while the dragon blood isn't. In my opinion (and it's just that) that's far from the truth. First of all there isn't neccesarily a combat every session. I mean of all the different szenarios I can think of (social mingling, detective work, outdoor survival, etc) combat is just one out of a huge amount of situations to be in, so the amount of times the combat relevant bonis are of interest is relativly low. Now WHEN combat strikes they may have an impact, but even then I think having a point less on this or that (for a normal juicer) is not nearly as threatening as having to not only find a adult dragon (which seems like a quest itself) but also having to get blood from him, which is either a potential deadly encounter, or in the rare case of them giving it freely, having to work for him which basicly means you dont work for the Tomorrow Legion anymore, but are the (powerfull) lakey of a dragon just to feed your addiction.
    The Watsonian response is that RIFTS is a violent world, where combat and life and death struggle occurs often, especially when you are a mercenary. The Doylist response is that Savage Worlds is an evolution of a wargame (Great Rail Wars), and thus a lot of its mechanics are focused on combat, similar to how DnD is mostly combat since it started off as a wargame with roleplaying tacked on, and the original RIFTS is an evolution of ADND with houserules in a wacky setting.

    Comment


    • #3
      Everyone runs their game differently. But in general most of my players get their income via spoils of war. Often times an encounter can net them quite a bit of credits.

      Though there are lower profit adventures, and a lot of time where Role play may happen a few sessions in a row, 1 big battle can set a team up for months to be rolling fat cats.

      As to combat, Juicers get Split the Seconds, and often augment that with two fisted, ambidextrous, or two gun kid. Most of the characters i have seen even in none combat type games reliably commit two or three actions per turn. The exception being Combat Mages and Psi-Warriors who always have four actions per turn. This experience is not drawn from only one group, but from dozens of games, it just seems that players like acting twice.

      Also with a TW in the group things like "Quickness", and Area of Effect attacks like Blasts should be flying all over the battle field. The only battles that take more than four or five turns are boss fights, most fights resolve in 2 rounds, or I just use the Quick Encounters rules from the GM toolbox.

      Comment


      • #4
        a. You have a combat cyborg and he doesn't have anything that offsets penalties? The TW can give the party extra actions (or at least, negate one multi-action penalty) with Speed and should probably be doing so at the start of any serious combats if the party is grouped up.

        b. The Tomorrow Legion pay is not meant to be a significant portion of your loot. You're an adventuring party, and you'll get far more in salvage and treasure than you ever will from the Legion, even with bonus hazard/objective pay. It's practically flavor, but it does establish that, even if you have a lot of downtime with no new mission away from Castle Refuge you get SOME money so even if you spent everything you're not setting out penniless, and it also establishes how much random NPC legionnaires who work at the castle all day make and what's within their means.

        You could run into a group of bandits, let's say there's five of them each wearing, say, 30,000cr armor and carrying 25,000cr weapons. Even with selling at 25% or 50% and some of the stuff being damaged, the party's probably making tens of thousands of credits from that encounter alone!

        Why do people work for the Tomorrow Legion? Because they want to Do Good and need guidance on how to do it. Again, as adventurers, people like the PCs make most of their money from loot anyway, so it's not much of a loss for you, but for Joe Shmo Non-Adventuring Operator who works at the castle all day and repairs the gear people like you bring back damaged? Yeah, he could make more working somewhere else. But here he's helping people like you fight the good fight!

        c. It IS an RPG, but a lot of the people who post on forums are concerned about the rules. And when it comes down to it, combat takes up a disproportionately large portion of the rules. It's not that we don't care about the other stuff, and people do occasionally ask for advice about it, but combat is what we're going to end up spending a lot of time discussing -- especially as it is where the idea of 'balance' is most relevant.

        Comment


        • #5
          There are a couple issues with the Savage Rifts economy in the books. I discussed them here: https://www.pegforum.com/forum/savag...d-gear-pricing
          (You have to scroll down to get to the part about the Tomorrow Legion pay scale).

          Conclusion: The cost of Savage Rifts gear is not conceptually compatible with either the Tomorrow Legion pay scale or the cost of SWADE gear (which they tell you to use as-is). A world where Rifts gear costs that much would have an organization like the TL paying you more; and most of the gear from SWADE could not be produced and sold at the SWADE price.

          In order to fix this, you need to either:
          - Add a 0 to both the Tomorrow Legion pay and the SWADE gear prices
          or
          -Subtract a 0 from the prices of all Savage Rifts purchases

          I recommend the first choice, in which case a Rifts credit = about $0.10. If you go with the second, the Rifts credit = $1 instead.

          Of course, since you aren't the GM you'll probably have to get them to take a look at my argument.

          Let me know if you have any questions. The argument is kind of developed and scattered throughout the thread, so it isn't presented rigorously in a particular place. I actually think if it were (with more charts and tables) everyone on that thread would likely agree with it and the game developers would have no choice but to errata it over a flood of popular unrest.

          Comment


          • #6
            Some notes about economy and pay scale: The TL is an organization that sends armed troops out to deal with situations. These specialists are not purely combat-focused, it's true, but it's expected that they will be using their weapons on a regular basis. Ergo, it's fair to assume that, in addition to the personal paycheck, the TL provides:

            Room & Board at Castle Refuge, and in locations where the group can operate openly as agents of the Legion, such as Merctown, etc. As noted, this is particularly useful during downtime (such as when your TW does have enough money to start doing upgrades).
            Ammunition--whether it's recharging E-Clips or filling up that Boom Gun's canister, the TL is going to be covering your ammunition costs. Again, this will happen both at Castle Refuge, and in any location you can go up to a local TL rep. Outside such areas, keep a record of any expenditures you make along these lines, and requisition reimbursement when you get back. Any briefing should end with a once-over of your current gear, with ammunition being provided equal to two 'loads' of all weapons--yes, including at least basic missiles and grenades for launchers.
            Repairs: As above, any damage to gear during the course of your missions should be covered by the Legion, either on the spot or via reimbursement.
            Transportation: You should at least get some form of transport to whereever it is you're going, even if your group doesn't have a vehicle of their own. It won't be a Mountaineer with all the mod slots filled, but it'll get you where you need to be, hopefully.

            These operating costs can actually bankrupt a merc company that doesn't get 'expenses' as part of their contracts, even with the potential windfalls of looting. Technical Difficulties, in particular, can wipe out some groups--if your Operator's Mountaineer, or your Cyborg's major systems, go kerflooey, it's good to know the Legion has a motor pool and cyberdoc ready to deal with it.

            One thing not necessarily implied by the setting, but which really SHOULD be part of it, is the idea of requisitioning equipment appropriate to the mission at hand. If you're heading into a multi-racial zone, for instance, it would be reasonable to ask for a Universal Translator. You'll be expected to return the item (or account for its loss), but that should

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks a lot for the feedback so far.

              So, my character is a D'Norr TW who, even if he doesn't have the Pacifist Hindrance (there were others who sounded more fun and you can only take 4 points of them) is completly opposed to the thought of using violence to solve problems and is only ok with it as last measure. The good thing about it we were able to get around a couple of combats because he was able to solve them peacefully. The negativ aspect is that there of course less "loot".

              Now about the loot. We all had the feeling that BECAUSE of working for the TL, we aren't roaming adventurers. We are represantatives of a group that seems/claimes to have the morale high ground and is still not set up verry well in a region where an attack by the coalition is a looming threat that grows by the day.
              Therefor we kind of assumed we dont completly strip the bodies of our opposition (like upstanding vulures,ehm I mean adventurers) and sell stuff our enemies had and instead just bring some needed stuff like weapons back to the TL armoury so the castle can stock up and get more like a bonus for stocking the armoury. (I think we got roughly 10% of what it's worth, but we werent aware of the selling rules at that point). Like, a soldier of an army wouldn't sell the stuff of his enemies on the next black market either. Besides we on some of the adventures simply have no way of transporting the stuff anyway. The CombatCyborg has the strentgh, but equipment takes space and so he cant logicaly cary around even half a dozen weapons and armour on top of what he has.

              So about casting "exalted quickness" on the start of every combat. First my char doesn't have quickness as a gizmo because it just didn't make sense for him. And then he cant cast MegaPowers because he would need to buy an edge for that, and we are still trying to rebuild our former characters after switching from SWEX to SWADE. That nerfed them heavily, especialy my TW because he lossed a lot of skill points from the HeroesJourney tables.
              So doing that isn't an option, and if he builds a gadget in combat then it would be usualy round 2 before he could cast it, making it likely (with our borg being fast in combat) that half of our fighters would only benefit from it from turn 3 onward because even if he casts it in turn 2 the borg usualy has already acted. Besides, with all the oposition we got, our fighters almost never got hurt because they are nearly unhittable (burster) AND have some MDC armor or have almost inpenetrable armour (borg), so why making combat go faster and spend a use of gadget building on it if the end result is still the same. He usualy just sits back and broods over the fact that he couldn't avoid the fight and maybe distracts an enemy here and there if neccesary.

              Now, our borg usualy uses his penalty reduction to to be able to hit better rather then more often. I guess because he wants to conserve ammo because he never knows how much enemies there will be left before we are able to remunition back at Refuge.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                So, my character is a D'Norr TW who, even if he doesn't have the Pacifist Hindrance (there were others who sounded more fun and you can only take 4 points of them) is completly opposed to the thought of using violence to solve problems and is only ok with it as last measure. The good thing about it we were able to get around a couple of combats because he was able to solve them peacefully. The negativ aspect is that there of course less "loot".
                The 4 points from Hindrances is the maximum a character can receive, but you can take as many Hindrances as you'd like. In fact, you are better off giving your D'Norr the Pacifist Hindrance (even though he won't get points from it) because then it can be used to generate Bennies for the character. If you are playing the character as a Pacifist anyway, you've got nothing to lose.

                Comment


                • R-Cane
                  R-Cane commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Our GM doesn't give us Bennies during a session except for drawing jokers. He said that we are playing rather short sessions (usualy around 4 hours) and therefor the bennies we have per session should be sufficiant. So taking more Hindrances doesn't make any difference.

              • #9
                As Freemage rightly pointed out, free repairs, refueling, and re-ammunition is potentially a big deal, especially for any groups with power armor or robot vehicle pilots.

                Also, in addition to your base pay, you can get special objective pay! This still isn't as big as what you'll get from selling loot but it's still a nice bonus compared to your base pay. The Game Master's Handbook pp81-82 mentions the Hazardous Mission bonus and the Special Success bonus.

                If your GM starts allowing more salvage, I should point out that the Game Master's Handbook on page 80 suggests that if a looted item was damaged in combat (likely the case for anything inside an AoE attack, and of course any armor someone was wounded or died in) it should take the results of a roll on the Technical Difficulties table.

                Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                We all had the feeling that BECAUSE of working for the TL, we aren't roaming adventurers. We are represantatives of a group that seems/claimes to have the morale high ground and is still not set up verry well in a region where an attack by the coalition is a looming threat that grows by the day.
                Therefor we kind of assumed we dont completly strip the bodies of our opposition (like upstanding vulures,ehm I mean adventurers) and sell stuff our enemies had and instead just bring some needed stuff like weapons back to the TL armoury so the castle can stock up and get more like a bonus for stocking the armoury. (I think we got roughly 10% of what it's worth, but we werent aware of the selling rules at that point). Like, a soldier of an army wouldn't sell the stuff of his enemies on the next black market either. Besides we on some of the adventures simply have no way of transporting the stuff anyway. The CombatCyborg has the strentgh, but equipment takes space and so he cant logicaly cary around even half a dozen weapons and armour on top of what he has.
                1. The moral high ground doesn't mean you throw perfectly good stuff away just because corpses are wearing it! Of course, if your enemies aren't corpses afterwards, this may differ. In times when you take them alive and then let them go, it's a moral judgement call depending on the situation as to how much of their gear you leave them with.

                2. The default assumption is that the PCs are part of one of the Tomorrow Legion's Special Expeditionary Teams. (They have other special units as well, listed on Game Master's Handbook pp29-31.) I forget if we're allowed to copy and paste text from books here, but in summary SETs have no set mission or directives other than being held to "the honorable foundations of the Legion". You're basically just wandering do-gooder adventurers, and in return for doing good and occasionally helping out on more specific missions, the Tomorrow Legion gives you logistical support, gives you a place to eat and sleep when you return to base, and shares information with you other teams have brought back about threats and settlements in the region.

                3. I've never seen a RIFTS group where no one had a vehicle but I guess it's possible. Try to get one. (TLPG p108) Even a motorcycle would provide a little cargo space, but for relatively cheap you can get a Big Boss ATV. Or, since you have a TW to power them, a skyboat or TW-converted airplane are also options! Does anyone have Drive or Pilot? Could someone learn them? A vehicle is a great asset; not only is it a way to cart stuff around, it provides shelter from the elements and, once you're rich, you can get weapons or professional stations installed!
                Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                my char doesn't have quickness as a gizmo because it just didn't make sense for him.
                Since he doesn't like using violence, fair enough! (As a note, though, you don't need Mega-Powers to use the power modifier that negates up to -2 multi-action penalty -- I did it as a Weird Scientist)
                Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                He usualy just sits back and broods over the fact that he couldn't avoid the fight and maybe distracts an enemy here and there if neccesary.
                I hope you can find something to do during fights. The distraction angle is good, but I don't know what powers you took. Have you considered the use of a neural mace and a stun gun to take down opponents nonlethally? Entangle is also GREAT for this.
                Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                Now, our borg usualy uses his penalty reduction to to be able to hit better rather then more often. I guess because he wants to conserve ammo because he never knows how much enemies there will be left before we are able to remunition back at Refuge.
                But... he's a borg. He has a nuclear reactor inside him that can power energy weapons forever. He might need to get a charging port installed though. Of course, conserving ammunition makes sense when you guys are doing no looting and making no money. Alternatively, since you're a TW, you could make him a TW-converted weapon that you can recharge as needed.
                Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                Our GM doesn't give us Bennies during a session except for drawing jokers. He said that we are playing rather short sessions (usualy around 4 hours) and therefor the bennies we have per session should be sufficiant.
                That's a normal session time. Bennies may not be handed out every session, but if they're never being handed out at all the GM is probably being too stingy. I myself am guilty of forgetting to look for opportunities to give bennies as a GM, though...

                Edit: Additional thoughts:
                Okay, as cool as an airplane sounds I have to acknowledge that it'd be useless for going anywhere without a wide open space to takeoff/land in.

                The ATVs, though wheeled, can make their way through even very difficult terrain at a slow pace (It's presumed the party is clearing a path, I guess -- or maybe it just slowly runs over trees as needed.) The rules in Tomorrow Legion Field Guide for Journeys imply that if you're able to get the ATV through the terrain at all, it averages out to 1.5x as fast as walking at worst.

                The skyboat has the VTOL tag, but air travel has its own issue: While very fast since you can fly over even the densest obstructions, you are a big obvious target visible for miles around -- and unlike the ATVs, the skyboat is not designed to take hits.

                See also the discussion in this thread for more talk about money and the TL's pay scale.
                Last edited by Scottbert; 11-23-2020, 04:52 AM.

                Comment


                • #10
                  You mentioned having to spend a round on building the Speed Gadget; technically, this is a choice you're making. Per the rules, you could sit down at the new session, and so long as you literally aren't in media res, you could declare that you're building a Speed Gadget and make the roll. It burns off one of your 5-6 Gadgets per session (I'm hoping a D'norr TW has a d10 or better Smarts, honestly). but in an abbreviated session like you describe, that shouldn't be an issue.

                  And Speed is one of those Powers that can be useful even outside of straight combat; the extra Pace makes it useful for foot-based Chases, for instance, and can allow other options in physical-but-not-combat scenes.

                  All this said, it DOES sound as if your group is atypical, in terms of amount of combat and looting. This isn't wrong, per se--if you're having fun, you're not playing wrong, period. But changing some of the baseline assumptions does change some of the other aspects of play; these changes should be noted.

                  For instance, the TL is very, very well-financed. If the motif for your group downplays looting, then they definitely should be giving you better financial backing, particularly in terms of rewards for mission success. Perhaps, instead of the combat bonus, the TL in your game should be giving a bonus for peaceful resolutions of situations. And maybe during downtime, your TW should be given the ability to do a Dramatic Task to build stuff for the Legion's armory--success level determines how much spare equipment he, himself receives for his own private projects.

                  And yes, your GM is simply being a bit too stingy with Bennies.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Sorry, I wanted to reply this morning, but the Forum itself seems to hate me. First I got logged out again while writing a detailed reply, using the “quote” function, to some of the points that were made by Scottbert so my whole post vanished again. Then luckily I found out how to bring back what was autosaved after logging back in again so I only had to rewrite a quarter of what I wrote only to then wanted to continue my post by using the “quote” function of Freemage to add his reply to it, only to find out that apparently when you use the quote function of another person while writing a reply it starts a new post and deletes what you already wrote.
                    As much as I love the community on it, the forum itself and me are starting to get on a warpath.
                    Having to repeatedly log back in again while writing a post never happened to me before in any forum. I guess there is an auto-logout timer in place that is doing that way to often.
                    I started to write the whole post I want to do in Word now and then copy paste it into the forum.

                    Originally posted by Scottbert View Post
                    2. The default assumption is that the PCs are part of one of the Tomorrow Legion's Special Expeditionary Teams. (They have other special units as well, listed on Game Master's Handbook pp29-31.) I forget if we're allowed to copy and paste text from books here, but in summary SETs have no set mission or directives other than being held to "the honorable foundations of the Legion". You're basically just wandering do-gooder adventurers, and in return for doing good and occasionally helping out on more specific missions, the Tomorrow Legion gives you logistical support, gives you a place to eat and sleep when you return to base, and shares information with you other teams have brought back about threats and settlements in the region.
                    OK, this is totally contrary to what we have been playing. From the start we always got missions (sometimes rather vague ones, but still). So basicly we have only been in Castle Refuge before and after the conclusion of each adventure. That's it. And an adventure has taken multiple sessions each. But it didn't feel wrong and I think it was plausible and consistent.

                    Originally posted by Scottbert View Post
                    3. I've never seen a RIFTS group where no one had a vehicle but I guess it's possible. Try to get one. (TLPG p108)
                    My char owns one. I took rich from the start to get it. Thanks to the change to SWADE I theoraticly cant have it anymore since rich doesn't give you a vehicle anymore, but our GM said it's ok to keep it. The "Wombat". A retrofitted ZoneRanger ATV with the "Living Space" and "Luxury Features" upgrades he used more as a caravan before becoming part of the TL. Thanks to SWADE he cant even control it anymore since Machine Maestro excludes Vehicles now. ​
                    But since our last two adventures where in dallas or on the way there, it didn't make sense to use it (as my char mentioned in the briefing) since we would take WAY more time getting there and back, and instead we got a TK Flyer Refuge had available. And it is kind of strained by having our full conversion cyborg from the NGR Heinrich on bord because he is not just taking up a lot of space, but also because of the one and a half ton he weights. So neither room nor carrying capacity for loot.

                    Originally posted by Scottbert View Post
                    I hope you can find something to do during fights. The distraction angle is good, but I don't know what powers you took. Have you considered the use of a neural mace and a stun gun to take down opponents nonlethally? Entangle is also GREAT for this.
                    I got my "Phase shifter" allowing me intangibility, a swarm of fly capable micro drones crawling on my shoulders called "The swarm" which he uses for Confusion if he ever gets attacked or another situation comes up for it and his "Celular Regeneration Enducer" allowing for Healing. And no, he doesn't do much in combat aside from trying to keep civilians save, brooding over the fact that we have to fight and rarely some Monologuing. I have the hindrance, but since he is a genius it doesn't trigger much rulewise. But I'm ok with not doing that much in combat. It's where the other two can shine and they got our bases covered so far.

                    Originally posted by Scottbert View Post
                    But... he's a borg. He has a nuclear reactor inside him that can power energy weapons forever. He might need to get a charging port installed though. Of course, conserving ammunition makes sense when you guys are doing no looting and making no money. Alternatively, since you're a TW, you could make him a TW-converted weapon that you can recharge as needed.
                    Yeah, he just told us about it. But since he's only got a Mini Rail Gun and a grenade launcher as a Weapon, having a unlimited energy source doesn't help with ammo. And I thought about TW conversion, but it's to risky because when he is in combat I dont want to be around him, which I'd had to if I wanted to reload his weapon. Besides he's not keen on being unable to reload his only weapon on his own.

                    Originally posted by Scottbert View Post
                    That's a normal session time. Bennies may not be handed out every session, but if they're never being handed out at all the GM is probably being too stingy. I myself am guilty of forgetting to look for opportunities to give bennies as a GM, though...
                    OK, for us it's not. We usualy always played between 6 and 8 hours a session in our other RPGs since we just played weekends. Now we are playing during the week via skype.​

                    Originally posted by Freemage View Post
                    You mentioned having to spend a round on building the Speed Gadget; technically, this is a choice you're making. Per the rules, you could sit down at the new session, and so long as you literally aren't in media res, you could declare that you're building a Speed Gadget and make the roll. It burns off one of your 5-6 Gadgets per session (I'm hoping a D'norr TW has a d10 or better Smarts, honestly). but in an abbreviated session like you describe, that shouldn't be an issue.
                    Hmh, if it doesn't take the Mega Power Upgrade I guess I could, but there was never the need for it since the end result of all fights was the same. But the 1 use of making Gadgets wouldn't hurt that much, as my Char, which he doesn't get tired of saying, is a genius. He's maxed out at D12+2 Smarts right now. Skill are far behind however, especialy since the SWADE conversion.

                    Originally posted by Freemage View Post
                    All this said, it DOES sound as if your group is atypical, in terms of amount of combat and looting. This isn't wrong, per se--if you're having fun, you're not playing wrong, period. But changing some of the baseline assumptions does change some of the other aspects of play; these changes should be noted.
                    Well, apart from the completly irritating desparety between income and costs it is fun. And either there is nothing in the GM guide stating that Rifts is combat focused or our GM completly ignores it. We usualy have 1 - 2 fights per adventure (and an adventure is usualy around 3-4 sessions.)

                    Originally posted by Freemage View Post
                    For instance, the TL is very, very well-financed. If the motif for your group downplays looting, then they definitely should be giving you better financial backing, particularly in terms of rewards for mission success. Perhaps, instead of the combat bonus, the TL in your game should be giving a bonus for peaceful resolutions of situations. And maybe during downtime, your TW should be given the ability to do a Dramatic Task to build stuff for the Legion's armory--success level determines how much spare equipment he, himself receives for his own private projects.
                    How is a place made mostly of refugees, that has a constant money sink in form of a medieval castle that needs to be brought to State of the Art Defenses ASAP, and the fact that they cant advertize and moneytize their endeavor because if the Coalition finds out what and where they are, they would get wiped out like Tolkeen most likely (especialy since the defenses aren't what they should be yet), well financed? And if they are, how come they are probably losing a lot of potential candidates for them to the mercenary life because they are just giving them enough scraps so they can buy a couple of beers and a souvenir from their missions? I mean, getting facilities for repairing expensive gear for free is nice. But only if you have expensive gear that gets damaged a lot. So for a RobotArmour Jockey that maybe sounds great, for a Juicer or any caster it just doesn’t. And not everyone is okay with getting paid scraps because your doing good while at the same time you’re risking your asses over and over again. As can be seen in our hospitals these days.

                    Originally posted by Freemage View Post
                    And yes, your GM is simply being a bit too stingy with Bennies.

                    “Stingy” used to be his middle name (especialy for XP) for a while, but things got better. Maybe he’s unaware of it or he’s back to his old self. ^^

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Even without going with multiple actions, if no one has the ability to hit more than one opponent per turn, combats are going to last longer. If it isn't already the case, the Burster can invest AoE Powers or Iconic Edges. The Combat Cyborg can get his his hand on a gun with a high ROF. You, as the pseudo-pacifist TW can create a few gizmos that can put out of combat a lot of extras in one shot, or hinder them so much MAP penalties become manageable (Entangle, Havoc, Stun, Slumber, etc.)

                      Edges like Sweep and Frenzy also help mopping the extras in one action.

                      Comment


                      • R-Cane
                        R-Cane commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Sometimes I do stuff like that when it feels appropriate. I once send the whole remaining crew of a spider bot to Lalaland after it fell to one side and released their DogSquad. I was able to get in there with intagibility and on the way build an delta wave emitter (slumber gadget) as a surpise gift.

                        But as I said, there is no need to quicken a fight if it doesn't change the outcome. If we win anyway and it takes the same ammunition then why bother? Unless there is a reason to be extra quick (like storming a building), but they are rather rare.

                        And our Burster has heavily invested in iconic edges. I'm not even sure if he took anything else. Which is also a problem with loot, because metalic sludge is rather useless and not worth much. But the discussion if they need to go overkill is one that happened a couple times in our group already. I mean, why shoot the Brodkill or whatever (fill in other random baddy) in the head instead of just punching them unconcious if they are not realy that much of a threat to you.
                        Sure, there is always the chance that they get a lucky hit on you, but that's why you have a. Bennies b. A caster with the healing power c. A TW genius that can repair the blamish in our cyborgs armour.

                        Well, we cant choose the people we are assigned to work with, can we. Wink

                      • Scottbert
                        Scottbert commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Oooh, I have my own spider-walker story! After getting my vehicle below it and blowing through the hatch with concentrated railgun fire, I ordered everyone out with an offer to spare their lives -- the dead boys being transported took me up on it. The vehicle crew refused and kept shooting the rest of my party. So I leaned out the window with a rocket launcher and fired it into their cockpit... The Coalition had just killed our dragon hatchling, after all.

                    • #13
                      Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                      Sorry, I wanted to reply this morning, but the Forum itself seems to hate me. First I got logged out again while writing a detailed reply, using the “quote” function, to some of the points that were made by Scottbert so my whole post vanished again. Then luckily I found out how to bring back what was autosaved after logging back in again so I only had to rewrite a quarter of what I wrote only to then wanted to continue my post by using the “quote” function of Freemage to add his reply to it, only to find out that apparently when you use the quote function of another person while writing a reply it starts a new post and deletes what you already wrote.
                      As much as I love the community on it, the forum itself and me are starting to get on a warpath.
                      Having to repeatedly log back in again while writing a post never happened to me before in any forum. I guess there is an auto-logout timer in place that is doing that way to often.
                      I started to write the whole post I want to do in Word now and then copy paste it into the forum.
                      Man, that sucks. I had some problems with large parts of my post being highlighted every time I tabbed out and back in while writing, but nothing THAT bad. Writing them in word is probably a good idea.

                      Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                      OK, this is totally contrary to what we have been playing. From the start we always got missions (sometimes rather vague ones, but still). So basicly we have only been in Castle Refuge before and after the conclusion of each adventure. That's it. And an adventure has taken multiple sessions each. But it didn't feel wrong and I think it was plausible and consistent.
                      So to clarify, it's not necessarily assumed you'll have NO missions in a campaign, and the games I've run and played in DID use a mission structure. My main point there was that, aside from the parameters of missions themselves, the PCs have pretty wide latitude to decide how to handle things. There's not a professional code of ethics that prevents you from looting defeated enemies or anything.
                      Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                      My char owns one. I took rich from the start to get it. Thanks to the change to SWADE I theoraticly cant have it anymore since rich doesn't give you a vehicle anymore, but our GM said it's ok to keep it. The "Wombat". A retrofitted ZoneRanger ATV with the "Living Space" and "Luxury Features" upgrades he used more as a caravan before becoming part of the TL. Thanks to SWADE he cant even control it anymore since Machine Maestro excludes Vehicles now. ​
                      But since our last two adventures where in dallas or on the way there, it didn't make sense to use it (as my char mentioned in the briefing) since we would take WAY more time getting there and back, and instead we got a TK Flyer Refuge had available. And it is kind of strained by having our full conversion cyborg from the NGR Heinrich on bord because he is not just taking up a lot of space, but also because of the one and a half ton he weights. So neither room nor carrying capacity for loot.
                      A TK flyer? We're not talking a wingboard here or even a TW-converted cessna, we're talking a transport plane the size of your Zone Ranger that, according to the statblock, seats 8 and has 500 cubic feet of cargo space if not modified to use the space for something else. There aren't really any rules covering the issues of certain passengers weighing a ton and a half, but even so.
                      Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                      I got my "Phase shifter" allowing me intangibility, a swarm of fly capable micro drones crawling on my shoulders called "The swarm" which he uses for Confusion if he ever gets attacked or another situation comes up for it and his "Celular Regeneration Enducer" allowing for Healing. And no, he doesn't do much in combat aside from trying to keep civilians save, brooding over the fact that we have to fight and rarely some Monologuing. I have the hindrance, but since he is a genius it doesn't trigger much rulewise. But I'm ok with not doing that much in combat. It's where the other two can shine and they got our bases covered so far.
                      Fair enough. But especially when you're just starting out and have so few powers known, you probably want to keep some gadgets (or is it gizmos?) pre-made for quick use. Look over the applicable powers and think about what might be useful: https://www.pegforum.com/filedata/fetch?id=32643
                      Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                      Yeah, he just told us about it. But since he's only got a Mini Rail Gun and a grenade launcher as a Weapon, having a unlimited energy source doesn't help with ammo. And I thought about TW conversion, but it's to risky because when he is in combat I dont want to be around him, which I'd had to if I wanted to reload his weapon. Besides he's not keen on being unable to reload his only weapon on his own.
                      That's his only weapon? Geeze, you guys need some loot.
                      Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                      Well, apart from the completly irritating desparety between income and costs it is fun. And either there is nothing in the GM guide stating that Rifts is combat focused or our GM completly ignores it. We usualy have 1 - 2 fights per adventure (and an adventure is usualy around 3-4 sessions.)
                      As Freemage suggests, if your campaign is structured in a way that discourages loot, the GM should be providing other awards. If Castle Refuge wants these jobs done and the jobs don't provide the usual reward, they can at least let you requisition some gear and upgrades.
                      Originally posted by R-Cane View Post
                      How is a place made mostly of refugees, that has a constant money sink in form of a medieval castle that needs to be brought to State of the Art Defenses ASAP, and the fact that they cant advertize and moneytize their endeavor because if the Coalition finds out what and where they are, they would get wiped out like Tolkeen most likely (especialy since the defenses aren't what they should be yet), well financed? And if they are, how come they are probably losing a lot of potential candidates for them to the mercenary life because they are just giving them enough scraps so they can buy a couple of beers and a souvenir from their missions? I mean, getting facilities for repairing expensive gear for free is nice. But only if you have expensive gear that gets damaged a lot. So for a RobotArmour Jockey that maybe sounds great, for a Juicer or any caster it just doesn’t. And not everyone is okay with getting paid scraps because your doing good while at the same time you’re risking your asses over and over again. As can be seen in our hospitals these days.
                      1. The castle's already renovated, IIRC

                      2. Castle Refuge's existence is not a secret. New settlements form and die out in the wilderness all the time, and roaming bands of adventurers regularly wander through CS territory -- as of fall 109 PA, the Coalition has no reason to assume this 'Tomorrow Legion' will last, let alone grow. If the CS actually believed that it was going to become a threat, they would attack it now. As has been discussed on this forum before, the situation is tenuous, and things will eventually come to a head... but probably not for months or years from the assumed campaign start date.

                      3. They are well financed because of wealthy donors, some of whom are secret and some of whom are not. Also, expeditionary teams often sell their loot TO Castle Refuge, at cheaper prices than they'd get buying it new. I imagine less adventurous Operators are kept busy fixing this stuff up or stripping it for parts, and the usable stuff keeps the armory stocked with excess sold to traders or gifted to the needy.

                      4. Again, the kinds of missions that Special Expeditionary Teams are sent out on tend to provide a wealth of opportunities to get loot. How do you think wandering adventuring parties get by? The Tomorrow Legion just gives those adventurers who are more moral-minded a bit of direction and support; it doesn't tell them to stop gathering cool stuff in the usual violent way. If your group is being denied these opportunities, ask the TL for better arrangements or go freelance. If the TL needs these missions done, and knows your team won't get the usual rewards an adventuring party accrues on missions, they SHOULD be compensating you another way; at the very least, allowing you to requisition more gear!

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        Originally posted by Scottbert View Post
                        A TK flyer? We're not talking a wingboard here or even a TW-converted cessna, we're talking a transport plane the size of your Zone Ranger that, according to the statblock, seats 8 and has 500 cubic feet of cargo space if not modified to use the space for something else. There aren't really any rules covering the issues of certain passengers weighing a ton and a half, but even so.
                        Fair enough. But especially when you're just starting out and have so few powers known, you probably want to keep some gadgets (or is it gizmos?) pre-made for quick use. Look over the applicable powers and think about what might be useful: https://www.pegforum.com/filedata/fetch?id=32643
                        No, it was a TK Flyer, but where does it say 500cubic feet? Our GM looked at the passengers that it can take and said it was a larger Czesna Variant. So it's relativly small. Well, the description says that it can be any size anyway. So thats what we have.

                        Originally posted by Scottbert View Post
                        That's his only weapon? Geeze, you guys need some loot.
                        As Freemage suggests, if your campaign is structured in a way that discourages loot, the GM should be providing other awards. If Castle Refuge wants these jobs done and the jobs don't provide the usual reward, they can at least let you requisition some gear and upgrades.
                        Yeah, we aquired a Light Railgun once, but looking at what it's worth it was basicly the biggest haul we could manage and sold it. Besides, he wasn't to fond of it (or it seemed that way) anyway.

                        Originally posted by Scottbert View Post
                        1. The castle's already renovated, IIRC

                        2. Castle Refuge's existence is not a secret. New settlements form and die out in the wilderness all the time, and roaming bands of adventurers regularly wander through CS territory -- as of fall 109 PA, the Coalition has no reason to assume this 'Tomorrow Legion' will last, let alone grow. If the CS actually believed that it was going to become a threat, they would attack it now. As has been discussed on this forum before, the situation is tenuous, and things will eventually come to a head... but probably not for months or years from the assumed campaign start date.

                        3. They are well financed because of wealthy donors, some of whom are secret and some of whom are not. Also, expeditionary teams often sell their loot TO Castle Refuge, at cheaper prices than they'd get buying it new. I imagine less adventurous Operators are kept busy fixing this stuff up or stripping it for parts, and the usable stuff keeps the armory stocked with excess sold to traders or gifted to the needy.
                        Hmh, maybe we are playing a little earlier in the timeline. Both other players played Palladium Rifts years ago and still had a lot of the books and I think they used some plots from there now in SWADE Rifts. Was Palladium earlier in the timeline? As far as I understood the GM, Castle Refuge in it's current state and "government" is only half a year old (or to be exact was half a year old when the campaign started) with still Refugees comming in. They just settled in and organized the administration structure, but is flying under the radar of the Coalition yet and is in desperate need for Allies and Gear/Funding before the Coalition becomes aware of it and starts to make a move on "some D-Bees and dissidents from the Coalition who are trying to build a fortified enclave".

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                        • Radecliffe
                          Radecliffe commented
                          Editing a comment
                          SWADE Rifts is set immediately after the fall of Tolkeen but prior to the Minion Wars. Mid to late 109PA is the timeframe I think.

                      • #15
                        I play a Combat Cyborg in a game. The Rock and Roll edge is de rigeur. Allows me 3 railgun shots with no MAP penalty.

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