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  • Ramjet rounds & AP Stacking

    I asked this in the official answers also, but figured I would see what the hive mind thinks. "I am using a .12 gauge with fin stabilized flechettes[from the Misfit studios gear guide] that I have smited adding 6 AP onto the integral 4 points of the rounds. If I add in ramjets to the mix would it stack?" We have been having problems figuring out how to work Kisentite rounds, finally decided on a retrapping of ramjets with 2 AP & the die of bonus damage. Immediately a group member asked if he could stack those with regular AP designs it is the material bonus] & ramjets so I am now curious what everybody thinks of that. My shotgun in the above example would end up with AP 16 & 4d10 damage if I could stack KIsentite Fin Stabilized Flechettes with Ramjets.
    Last edited by Kellary; 07-11-2020, 05:12 PM.

  • #2
    I don't see ramjet buckshot as a thing myself. If you want a better shotgun, use a big bore.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Radecliffe View Post
      I don't see ramjet buckshot as a thing myself. If you want a better shotgun, use a big bore.
      It is a single solid dart, not buckshot, I am using a solid Fin Stabilized Flechette, it doesn't get the +2 bonus from shotguns & does 2d10 at any range with the ability to fire it to extreme ranges. I am using my gun as an example because I know the stats for it off hand. Could it stack in the SMG or an assault rifle though? I won't be using it, the standard kisentite bonuses we have come up with are PLENTY for me, & I am already spending 20x as much per round as normal despite building them in my machine shop, but others in my group are already looking at it, so I wanted the hive minds opinion on how we should handle it.
      FSF Shells

      FSF (Fin Stabilized Flechette) shells inflict 2d10

      damage regardless of the range increment. Designed

      for penetrating armor, these flechettes sit snuggly in

      a shotgun shell until fired and have Armor Piercing 4.

      This ammunition does not benefit from the usual

      shotgun +2 Shooting bonus.

      Knowledge (Gunsmithing) Modifiers

      Machining: –4

      Swaging: –2
      Last edited by Kellary; 07-11-2020, 06:11 PM.

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      • #4
        Ah, well I see. I still don't think it stacks though just because ramjet ammo replaces standard ammo. In this case you are combining two different kinds of specialty ammo together. In that case it should be the better AP of the two specialty types plus the AP from smite.

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        • #5
          That all makes sense to me, but would the damage die stack? I have to admit I come down on the yes side of this one. I 100% agree with the AP not stacking, to be frank I think my GM & I were looking for excuses to say it wouldn't do so. The guy we are planning around is obsessed with AP, we are fighting xiticix, & demons for the most part, so AP above 8 with the take em down edge or 12 without, he has it, is a complete waste, but he will want to use kisentite ramjets in his Machinegun & SMG, he already used silver ramjets against werewolves so we know he will try to do it with kisentite also. Eventually he will lose a hand or something to them, but until that glorious day we have to plan around it

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          • #6
            How do you fit a ramjet into a flechette without compromising it? I would not consider the two to be compatible at all.

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            • #7
              I see this as two different kinds of specialty ammo. Both are upgrades to standard ammo so combining them doesn't make much sense to me. Standard shotgun slugs do 2d10 AP 0 normally. Ramjet shotgun slugs would be 2d12 AP 4 MD normally and subject to technical difficulties. Add in smite and it's 2d12+2 AP 10 MD without taking into account a raise or mega mods. Take em down would add 4 AP on top of that assuming it applies. Not sure how much more you want to stack onto this?

              If the kisentite is the sticking point just retrap the ramjet as kisentite and call it a day. Throw in a weakness bonus if that is applicable (don't remember exactly what the stuff is good for and I'm not going to rifle through my books just now.)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by HappyDaze View Post
                How do you fit a ramjet into a flechette without compromising it? I would not consider the two to be compatible at all.
                First let me say to you who are responding, TYVM for doing so. You can make it a short burn rocket that only burns long enough to leave the barrel, or lights off after leaving the barrel.
                similar to a Naruni Micro missile in size. It's called a flechette but it is more of a dart than anything else. This is the type of thing I am talking about shotgun wise. This is the type of thing we think of as the game version of a fin stabilized flechette style round for a shotgun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ofp..._radio=1&t=174
                Last edited by Kellary; 07-12-2020, 02:25 AM.

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                • HappyDaze
                  HappyDaze commented
                  Editing a comment
                  A ramjet doesn't work at all until it's already at a fairly high speed, so there has to be something else that gets the round out of the barrel. Also, the ramjet needs a sufficiently large intake to compress air to combustion, and I just don't see that fitting into a shotgun-launched flechette or even a fin-stablized penetrator from a tank's main cannon (but I might buy the latter with the tech of Rifts).

              • #9
                ok. This went off the rails a bit. Kisentite is just a material like silver etc. From CS navy sourcebook "Kisentite is an ultra-dense and virtually indestructible metal from another dimension."
                What would the bonuses for that material be? Silver adds 1 to AP but costs 1 damage for example. Foregoing the specifics of shotguns etc, how wold you trap the metal free of all other considerations. In Palladiums Aliens Unlimited Universe AP rounds like teflon etc , have +2 to penetrate armor ratings & do d6 extra damage, but blow half their energy on the armor & half on the person inside. Kisentite rounds have 3 AP instead of 2. Considering it just a material, & you can shape silver etc into specialized rounds & make them ramjets etc why wouldn't you be able to shape kisentite in the same way as any other material?

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                • HappyDaze
                  HappyDaze commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Not all materials have the same properties. An ultra-dense material may be very rigid and hard to work with, especially compared to silver (which is relatively soft and easy to shape). An ultra-dense material may also require significantly more propellant to get up to speed depending on overall projectile mass (which is why a discarding sabot around a sub-caliber penetrator is likely--but that sub-caliber penetrator is then not ideal for containing a ramjet & fuel).

              • #10
                HappyDaze That is exactly why I am here asking. Leaving aside the whole ramjet thing, what would the bonuses for an ultra hard & ultra dense material like Kisentite be? Silver is harder than standard rounds so +1 ap, but less dense so -1 damage, Kisentite has both the density & hardness. Yes, it takes laser or particle forges to work with, but we have them. I have a state of the art laboratory, gun shop & mechanics bay for powered armor under 2 acres of land in queenston harbor. I have spent two edges & a ton of money setting it up it so far.

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                • #11
                  Originally posted by Kellary View Post
                  Silver is harder than standard rounds so +1 ap, but less dense so -1 damage.
                  In this game, silver and lead balls might as well be the same aside from harming creatures vulnerable to a specific material. If you want ultra-dense shotgun pellets (or, more likely, flechettes) then go with a bit more AP if you like, but I don't think they should do more damage too.

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                  • #12
                    Originally posted by HappyDaze View Post
                    In this game, silver and lead balls might as well be the same aside from harming creatures vulnerable to a specific material. If you want ultra-dense shotgun pellets (or, more likely, flechettes) then go with a bit more AP if you like, but I don't think they should do more damage too.
                    Cool, TYVM

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                    • #13
                      Since when is silver harder than copper or steel (common ammunition strike faces) or tungsten (AP)? And what rules suggest giving silver ammo +1 AP/-1 Dam vs. normal ammo?
                      Originally posted by HappyDaze View Post
                      In this game, silver and lead balls might as well be the same aside from harming creatures vulnerable to a specific material.
                      So, yeah.

                      BTW, in normal nomenclature, flechette refers to a replacement for buckshot not the subcaliber penetrator of a sabot round. And fin stabilization is part of standard flechette design. Being fired en massed from a smoothbore really limits the ability to spin stabilize what are essentially thick needles.

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                      • #14
                        "in metallurgy, there are several possible definitions of hardness. The one we're interested in is "Resistance of metal to plastic deformation". The harder the metal, the more energy is required to deform it. There are a number of ways to measure hardness, but most reloaders use the Brinell Hardness Number (BHN). Lead is a very soft metal, and has a BHN of 5, silver is much harder, with a BHN of 24.5." We are using the Misfit games Modern gear guide.
                        A shotgun slug made of silver is about 10% less

                        dense than one made of lead but is harder. Behaves

                        like standard shotgun slugs, but imposes a –1 to dam

                        age and attack rolls and grants AP 1. These are effec

                        tive against creatures with a silver weakness.

                        This ammunition does not benefit from the usual

                        shotgun +2 Shooting bonus.
                        BTW, I don't mean to sound argumentative or anything, I am using all of you to play devils advocate because we can't honestly see a reason, other than we hate his obsession with more & bigger guns, not to let him do it. The guy I am working this around already has a naruni micro missile launcher which we trapped to be AP grenades with no blast radius with the range of mini missiles, & a smited particle beam rifle that has 14 AP due to his mods plus he has the take em down edge. He has the weird science background, but has stuck with only smite & invisibility as his powers. He recently bought aliens unlimited so we know what is coming when he notices the AP rules in it & wants to convert them. I do truly appreciate the feedback & help

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                        • #15
                          Okay, so we're talking silver vs. lead, not standard modern bullets. This helps immensely. Regarding the special metal, I would simply use the same effects of ramjet rounds and define them as incompatible; too dense to use the same geometries as other bullets and have enough fuel, and if hollowed out for enough fuel, not enough left for improved effect over the standard design.

                          Ultimately, the GM needs to just say no if there is a problem player trying to overgame a system to the detriment of everyone else's enjoyment.

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