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Acquiring a target if popping up in cover or turning a corner etc....

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  • Acquiring a target if popping up in cover or turning a corner etc....

    If someone wants to shoot at an enemy (and vaguely knows where they might be), but they have to pop up from behind a wall (still staying in cover) or might have to turn a corner of a corridor to shoot at the target....

    How do people handle the process of "acquiring" the target?

    - Is it just part of the action after you have moved far enough to see them?
    - Would you force a notice check, or agility check to see them and take a bead on them?


  • #2
    The baseline is that you can move, spot and fire without any additional effort.

    The biggest (maybe only) exception would be if the opponents were actually making an attempt to not be immediately noticeable. If they took an action to roll Stealth, then you'll have to roll Notice (a free action) to spot them.

    One thing to note--if you don't know who you're dealing with, or how many of them, you'll need to declare your full actions before going for the look-see. Thus, if your declared action is, "I move to the corner, and shoot the first bandit I see", then if you can't quite see them from the corner, the rest of your action is wasted.

    Comment


    • Freemage
      Freemage commented
      Editing a comment
      GM_Rob: I disagree that spotting a target who is not actively hiding requires a Notice check, let alone an action. Even the Notice check to spot someone who is Stealthed would be a free roll.

    • GM_Rob
      GM_Rob commented
      Editing a comment
      Freemage...I never said that a enemy standing in plain view would require a Notice check. Notice is usually an Opposed roll against something that is Hiding or using Stealth.

      Nor did I say that it would actually take part of the action in my example of RUNNING (this gives a penalty to your actions) for Cover from your starting point, looking around (I would scale this depending on circumstances ie You easily see the guy standing in the room, but a Notice check reveals the other guy drawing a bead on you), then firing with a RoF 2+ gun one time. This is how Multiple Actions work.

    • Freemage
      Freemage commented
      Editing a comment
      GM_Rob: I was thrown off by your wording You didn't specify why the Notice roll was needed, and didn't mention the person being Noticed being hidden in some way, so I thought you were saying it was the default, rather than created by some specific action taken by the other person. You did it again in your next reply, "You easily see the guy standing in the room, but a Notice check reveals the other guy drawing a bead on you),"--there's nothing about 'drawing a bead' on you to cause a Notice check; it's that the guy drawing the bead on you is doing so from a crouched position behind the sofa with only a smidge of his head and the gun barrel showing (ie, his prior Stealth roll) that forces you to have to roll to Notice him. And even then, the Notice check is not an action, but a free roll made in reaction to walking into an attempted ambush.

  • #3
    If the enemy is not hiding you wouldn't need a Notice check in normal circumstances. If they are behind Cover you simply take the penalty to hit. If they are purposely hiding in an ambush or Stealthing you would need a Notice check to spot them before opening fire otherwise they just survey the area and give the all clear to break cover.

    You should have the players Declare all their actions so you don't have someone just rolling to fire again since the bad guy didn't drop without the penalties they would have had in the first place.

    I hope that helps.

    Comment


    • Maelgwyn
      Maelgwyn commented
      Editing a comment
      Declaring all of their actions is not a problem. But the argument has been put to me at my table that someone popping out of complete cover where they couldn't see their target at the beginning of the round should have some kind of penalty.

      But I can't seem to find any mechanic or logic to support that because moving -> acquiring your target and shooting -> moving again, seems to be a completely penalty free action.

      So if I read what you said you are agreeing that if the shooter is poptarting and the target isn't hiding, no notice check is required to find them, and therefore normal shooting action with no additional penalties.

      If the target is hiding though, you would add in a notice check to see if you can spot them first, and if that is successful continue from there.

      Or are you suggesting that a player poptarting needs to declare their action with a notice check built in by default (even if it isn't ultimately needed), and that notice check then forces the them to take a multi action penalty, even if they find that their target is out in the open and easy to spot, so no extra roll is required.

    • Scottbert
      Scottbert commented
      Editing a comment
      Maelgwyn's take makes sense to me. If you're in combat rounds your characters are expecting a fight, even if they don't know exactly where the enemies are. When you walk around a corner in counter-strike and see an enemy do you spend more than a split-second looking before you shoot? A round is six whole seconds...

      I don't think the notice check for a stealthed opponent should take an action, any more than your half of an opposed Test should take an action. Some guy rolls a 2 on Stealth and if I don't take an action to roll I can't possibly see him? Nonsense.

    • GM_Rob
      GM_Rob commented
      Editing a comment
      The reason you don't see a penalty to moving normally and firing is because there isn't any, only when you take a Run Action do the penalties start accruing.

      If your player is "poptarting" and firing at someone they KNOW where they are you use the Shooting through Cover/Obstacles rules.

      If the player has not seen anyone, and the Successfully made their roll to Hide, you would need a Notice check as they are essentially Invisible. If they failed the hiding roll, then they make some noise or don't get the full benefits of Cover.

      Now if you want to enforce a penalty to the Notice check for it being a quick glance around that is up to you, unless the player specifically notes they are taking a hard look for wherever the enemy is and opening fire. At that point I would say they are looking hard for any noticeable traces (knocked over chairs, paperwork flung, dust settling from movement, a reflection in a odd surface).

  • #4
    Yeah Sorry GM_Rob, the dealing with a target in cover isn't not the part I was confused about. I was trying to get your take on a target that is not in cover. It is only the shooter that is popping up out of cover, or is coming around a corner and doesn't know exactly where the target is standing yet.

    Comment


    • Radecliffe
      Radecliffe commented
      Editing a comment
      If a target is not under cover then acquiring that target is a very easy and fast process unless you are trying to do something special like a called shot. I don't see a need for any extra penalties unless there are other factors in play.

  • #5
    No problem. I hope I eventually got that covered in the last part. Most of the time you just either see the person or a Opposed roll is needed on a GM call.

    Comment


    • #6
      I think it's part of Setting Rules and the kind of game you want to emulate. By RAW, Savage Worlds is all about action movies and pulp serials, with heroes battling hordes of mooks and bullets flying everywhere. You can always use the moment of hesitation some people have when in cover as failing your Spirit roll after being Shaken. In addition, even in full cover, characters will take a few peeks trying to identify where their opponents are before shooting.

      If you want a more gritty feel, maybe add a ''Dig In'' Setting Rule.

      Dig In
      If the target of an attack isn't readily visible to the attacker at the begining of his turn (behind cover, around a corner, etc.), but becomes a valid target (after moving or destroying the cover, for example), apply the Unstable Platform penalty.

      Comment


      • dentris
        dentris commented
        Editing a comment
        Maelgwyn You can also add a specific rule that being in medium or higher cover (as long as its opaque) counts as not seeing the target at the start of your turn.

      • Maelgwyn
        Maelgwyn commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm already assuming that the shooter can't see their target at the beginning of their action. That is the point I'm trying to work out. Should not seeing their target at the beginning of their action, because they are in hiding, create a penalty for the shooter. Or is identifying the target to shoot and drawing a bead on them all part of the normal moving and shooting actions?

      • dentris
        dentris commented
        Editing a comment
        Maelgwyn By RAW, there are no penalties. My point is, if you want, you can add one, like the Unstable Platform, or create a new one from scratch, maybe with an Edge or two to complement it.
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