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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ndreare View Post
    I agree close combat is worthless as they excluded TW gear from the options.
    Oh, it's bad for a lot more reasons than that. I don't even count that among its faults (Ranged Weapons doesn't allow TW gear either, since they aren't listed as Personal Weapons) - I'd expect TW weapons from EI&MG.
    20% any non-TW melee weapon.
    35% a specific non-TW melee weapon.
    10% Choose Any of the Above.
    Over half the table is redundant, and just provides a standard weapon. Not much of a defining element of your heroic past.

    In fairness, the 7, 10-11, 13, 15, 17, and 18 are interesting, useful, and generally pretty good. +1 Fighting, +1 Damage, silver, +2 AP, +1 Parry, and an embedded ranged weapon. Good stuff, half of them worth an Edge, but only 35% of the table, 45% including the "Pick Any" result.

    CCW sucks, unless you really want your character to have a particular weapon. My new Glitter Boy rolled on it for a back-up weapon, rolled a 3 (disappointed until I read the result) and chose the Thunderer.
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Radecliffe View Post

      See, my point was exactly the opposite. Unless you are determined to roll on a table that is going to suck for your character this should never be a problem. I't's not been a problem for me anyway.
      Have you read the entire post? I gave a personal example which contradicts what you just said. No matter what table you choose, some results will be sub-par. I was a TW and rolled on the Magic table (which is more than a reasonable choice) getting a result which clearly was inferior for my character.

      You are making a badass pistolero character and roll on the Training Table and end up with Martial Artists. A psion gets the ability to roll his Spirit instead of another Trait when spending a Benny...but he has d4 Spirit. A melee-based Spellcaster ends up with a TW revolver on the Magic Gadget Table. A character without Taunt or Intimidation ends up with Strong-willed.

      They all rolled on relevant tables for them and got inferior results. Of course they are not useless and they could rework their character, but that would be at the expense of something else, all because of a die roll.
      Like I said, some people like this aspect and that's fine, but it's unfair, plain and simple. I hated the old Deadlands "draw cards for character création" for.this exact same reason. Or rolling 3d6 for each attributes of D&D,.and many other systems.

      The real point is giving the chance to players to choose on the tables rather than roll is perfectly fine, excdpt it takes slightly more time.If they want a suboptimal option that's fine because they choose to do it, probably because it made sense in character, rather than being forced into a path you don't want.

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      • Radecliffe
        Radecliffe commented
        Editing a comment
        No need to get nasty. Rolling being sub-optimal is your opinion, not mine. I guess it is time to go find out if there is blocked list on this forum.

      • dentris
        dentris commented
        Editing a comment
        Sorry if that sounded nasty, that wasn't my intention. I apologize

    • #18
      Originally posted by dentris View Post

      Have you read the entire post? I gave a personal example which contradicts what you just said. No matter what table you choose, some results will be sub-par. I was a TW and rolled on the Magic table (which is more than a reasonable choice) getting a result which clearly was inferior for my character.
      I noted in a response to your comment that the result was actually far more useful to your character than you acknowledged, simply because you're a TW, meaning that powers that cause damage are literally a single round away.
      Now, let's look at your other examples....
      You are making a badass pistolero character and roll on the Training Table and end up with Martial Artists.
      So now if someone gets in your face when you're doing the double-fisted shooting thing, you can kick 'em in the nards. I'm not sure how that's a problem.


      A psion gets the ability to roll his Spirit instead of another Trait when spending a Benny...but he has d4 Spirit.
      This might be sub-optimal out of the gate (though it essentially gives you momentary use of the Gifted Super-Power from SPC for the cost of a Benny, since you can now roll ANY Skill at d4--and oh, yes, if you take Elan, let's make that a d4+2), but if you're playing a Psion who plans to remain a d4 Spirit his entire career, then you've got some issues coming up, like being the only guy at Seasoned who still has to deal with being stun-locked when you get Shaken.


      A melee-based Spellcaster ends up with a TW revolver on the Magic Gadget Table.
      The gear tables are the worst in the system, even the TW gear tables, simply because of the possibility of getting an unsuitable piece of gear. That said, a TW ranged weapon means that your character isn't going to be as badly screwed at ranged combat as he was going to be before this.

      A character without Taunt or Intimidation ends up with Strong-willed.
      Meaning he also gets to resist Taunts and Intimidation attempts by his opponents at +2, which is no small thing in itself.

      In all of these cases, the character gets an advantage out of the box--if it doesn't give him a super advantage in his primary field, then it ends up covering him someplace he's weaker. And in at least one of those cases, it actively encourages him to make a better build, or at least take some sensible advances (d4 Spirit is part of your character concept for a Psionic type, really?)

      And every one of these examples can still be converted on a two-for-one exchange if the player really, really hates them.

      If you must, re-write the book slightly. For every IF, cut the number of rolls in half, and declare that the player can pick an option from the appropriate tables. In place of the 19-20 option of "Player's Choice", you give the option of rolling twice on the table (but this result doesn't stack with itself, so just re-roll if you get a 19-20).

      Presto, problem solved for folks who absolutely despise rolling for any aspect of their character.

      Comment


      • #19
        Personally, my solutions are, roll on the HJ first then build the characters. I've also tried rolling the dice and then choosing which table to apply the result to, with great success.

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        • #20
          Originally posted by Freemage View Post

          If you must, re-write the book slightly. For every IF, cut the number of rolls in half, and declare that the player can pick an option from the appropriate tables. In place of the 19-20 option of "Player's Choice", you give the option of rolling twice on the table (but this result doesn't stack with itself, so just re-roll if you get a 19-20).

          Presto, problem solved for folks who absolutely despise rolling for any aspect of their character.
          This would be the option I would choose if I were to eliminate rolling on the HJ (or FG) tables. I probably would go one step further though and remove the "pick edge of your choice" options from the tables.

          Comment


          • Freemage
            Freemage commented
            Editing a comment
            Well, the idea was that if a player wanted to go back to random rolls (and thus get more of the good stuff), they could just by taking that option all the way down the line. Mechanically, it's the same, but it paints the extra rolls as a bonus you get for taking random selection, as opposed to being the default. For some reason, that seems to matter to the anti-random faction.

          • dentris
            dentris commented
            Editing a comment
            Just to make it clear, if you want to keep the random rolls in your game because you enjoy it, by all mean go for it. Like you said, it's the default method. I've been trying to argue that forfetting the rolls all together and allowing the players to choose instead is perfectly fine as well without reducing the number of rolls. The only downside is a more lengthy character creation.

            My point about unfairness is my opinion, nothing else and I do not want to force my opinion on you. I might be irrational, but I had enough bad memories about random character creation rules that any sort of randomness is something to avoid.

        • #21
          There is a second downside to players choosing their HJ results, which I've touched on before, but feel needs explicit stating.
          The first, as mentioned, is length of time. Waiting for players to choose takes longer than having them roll dice. That's been true with just choosing which tables to roll on, let alone which results to take.
          The second drawback is more subtle, boring stories. When a Hero's Journey gives an unexpected result, the player is forced to think about the circumstances and back story that explain why this happened and is still relevant to the character. Explaining what prompted your pistolero to pick up a Mean Right Hook (or Woodsman, Dirty Fighter, Ace, or other Training results), or why your close combat techno-wizard carries a TK Revolver, or why your pacifist mystic carries a portable rocket launcher, or why your D-Bee (can't speak) Operator has I Know A Guy and Connections (Black Market) can add pages of depth and details to a character's past. Details that can inspire entire adventures, or even story arcs, adding hours of fun to games. Hours that are lost to the duller, "I helped a guy out, so he tricked out this pistol for me, granting +1 Shooting".
          I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

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