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  • Toughness/Armour Issues

    Posted this for an official answer, but I am also curious what the community says.
    **Spoilers for Garnet town Gambit, including stats.

    Having issues with a second group, of similar makeup, with armour values on the garnet town gambit *Spoilers to non GM's to follow on stats for that encounter*

    I have no glitterboy, but a cyber knight and a combat borg, along with a techno wizard and a MERC (Quick-Flex Mercenary/Sniper)
    Last group was a mystic, cyberknight, techno wizard and borg, very differently tooled than this one


    The issue: No glitterboy to punch that 24+14 MDC armour on agor, and anything that can pass the 21+8 armour on Gar'Thul Gar Thul being actually more of an issue because my melee characters-- the borg and glitterboy, cannot usually hit let alone get aces to do enough damage

    Aside from giving them direct pointers to use things like Grapple + Finishing moves, or gang up bonuses (Literally had my mystic close w/ her staff so my borg and cyberknight could actually connect, and i still nerfed some rolls to let him take damage) I dont see this being enjoyable for the players, and have had both groups (With only one player carrying over) complain about the length of battles and not being able to damage it, because they can effectively keep him disabled, but aside from perfect damage rolls and getting past Agor's 8 parry, they cant touch him because AP values are just too low, or damage is just too low. and with 12 parry on the demon, the only option is to shoot him but at 21+8, nothing but a heavier weapon than the mini railgun available to them, which does 20 damage with perfect rolls (assuming nothing aces) and ap of 6, it still isnt coming close to damaging it.

    I looked for some clarification on damage rules for full auto and bolt powers w/ 3 bolts being fired and it seems damage is determined individually on the shot, so the 3 bolts are not 6d6, and the railgun is not 8d8+4 (or +16 because 4x4)

    Something just feels *off*. A player should not HAVE to get multiple aces just to wound a target. rough thinking on the math says thats less than a 5% chance and 1/20 chance to even wound when player can get one-shot (again, M.A.R.S and Techno Wizard, and my Cyber Knight this time around is less tanky)

    Am i calculating automatic fire wrong? should it be the 6d6 or 8d8+4 AP 6? Am i not guiding my players right? Letting/Guiding them to grapple/finishing move seemed like a cheap-shot and very anti-climactic (They are new and enjoyed it) but if i wasn't punching through with my parties heaviest weapon I would be a little sad on the other side of the GM screen. and talking to my 'veteran' player after the game he wasn't impressed either, (He couldn't hit anything all night-- literally, so was disheartened anyway) and still had same concerns I do even after exposing some stats/rolls to him.

    Sorry if this is long-winded but it really kicked our Savage Rifts experience in the nuts, twice now, and i'd like to sort it before next Thursday when this new group goes up against Gar'Thul and Symon

  • #2
    after reading the post below about vehicle questions I think I may cap armour for my next session as a quick fix, probably +10 or +8 for human or slightly big human enemies, and +15 or +12 for vehicles, just so my players can pick off certain things with some good rolls. All the other solutions seem to need heavy modifiers for the rules, which I am not wanting to do this early into a campaign. I even still see Gar'Thul being a tough nut to crack, as my Borg is the only one with the damage capacity to hurt him really

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    • #3
      Exalted smite is the great equalizer. If you lack a heavy hitter, strongly advising the speelcasters to take this power is important. +4/+8 damage with the trapping of your choice and transforming anything into Mega damage turn everyone into a powerhouse.
      Last edited by dentris; 09-08-2018, 07:26 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Hoser View Post
        The issue: No glitterboy to punch that 24+14 MDC armour on agor, and anything that can pass the 21+8 armour on Gar'Thul Gar Thul being actually more of an issue because my melee characters-- the borg and glitterboy, cannot usually hit let alone get aces to do enough damage
        I think you're reading the entries incorrectly.
        Agor's Toguhness isn't 24+14 MDC. His Toughness is 24, including the 14 MDC armor. Players aren't having to beat a 38, they're up against a 24.
        A Cyber-Knight has Champion and his psi-blade is AP 6, minimum; assuming he makes it Mega damage, and you remember the +4 for being holy, he just needs to roll 12+ for Shaken and 16+ for a Wound. With Spirit and Strength d8, that's pretty easy with a Wild Attack (average damage roll should be 15.3, +2 for Wild Attack for total average 17.3). With a bit more combat focus (higher Strength, higher Spirit, Improved Psi-Sword, smite, etc.) he'll be carving through brodkill like the Highlander through pinatas.

        Gar'thul is even squishier. At Toughness 21 (8), a mini-Rail Gun will tear him up. AP 6 means Gar'Thul is down to Toughness 15, and 2d8+4 averages 14.2 damage on a regular hit (Shooting TN 4) or 18.4 when hit with a raise. The only way he lasts more than two combat rounds is because he has Fast Regeneration.

        Your problem is the opposite of the one most people describe, so I am confused that such a combat heavy group is suffering from it. It implies something is fundamentally misunderstood.
        I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

        Comment


        • dentris
          dentris commented
          Editing a comment
          Yeah, I definitively should have read the OP's post more carefully. My advice is still good, but mostly obselete considering the already available firepower.

      • #5
        Without a big blaster like a Glitterboy, my team used an interesting tactic. They were able to find his Robot Armor in the river. Using a combination of powers, they were able to find the exact location of the cockpit. I allowed one of the casters to use teleport to bring in the assassin in the group, and they teleported in, then the assassin 1 shot killed the pilot. Also, remember, if the mystic has any offensive spells Soul Blast will ignore all that fancy Robot Armor and just hit anything organic. That is how my players were able to get away with stealing the Mark V from one of the one sheet adventures as well.

        Comment


        • #6
          that actually makes a lot more sense, i just see the +12mdc +2 armour and then 24 to start and i even had players read over how toughness is done and either we all missed it that the first number is a TOTAL.

          So an MDC weapon with say AP 4 vs. him would need a total roll of 20 to shake becuase it negates 4 points.

          if he was 20 (1) vs. AP 4, the 3 AP would be wasted because its toughness not armour at that point... thanks for clarifying that makes things much more balanced.

          edit: Still slightly high IMO for an opening scenario, but i guess most parties would have 1 or 2 'heavier' hitting characters even if one or two characters cant hit him

          second edit: thanks a ton guys
          Last edited by Hoser; 09-08-2018, 11:20 PM.

          Comment


          • #7
            You're welcome.

            Originally posted by Hoser View Post
            edit: Still slightly high IMO for an opening scenario, but i guess most parties would have 1 or 2 'heavier' hitting characters even if one or two characters cant hit him
            A few of them are a bit high, but those are the "boss" foes.
            Agor is the biggest and toughest a cybernetic brodkil is going to be (can be tougher, but not by a lot), and he's tough enough that he thought about taking on a forager. He's got a natural Toughness 10, and can get +2 if he goes Berserk. He's the boss monster while the weaker heroes tear apart the regular brodkil (natural and cyber).
            Gar'Thul is the "you messed up, now fight this" boss. The players can actually prevent him from arriving (about 50% when I've run this adventure). He's significantly weaker than a "standard" greater demon, but still threatening. It gets nasty if / when Symon casts greater armor on Gar'Thul - then the big guy (and he is Large) becomes really tanky at Toughness 26 (13) MDC, or 31 (18) MDC if the Seer casts with a Raise.
            But all of those pale next to Strickland in his Forager. That sweet Toughness 33 (15) is proof against most things lighter than Medium Missiles or Heavy Rail Guns. Despite that, a good roll from a portable rocket launcher can deal the 31+ / 26+ damage needed to inflict some wounds (and Critical Hits).


            You repeatedly mentioned characters not hitting. Why were players (including you) not using Wild Attack? +2 to hit (and damage) is a huge bonus, and the -2 Parry means that bad guys who regularly wild attack get torn up by heroes - even heroes that aren't particularly good at fighting.
            I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

            Comment


            • #8
              they were playing it safe and are a little inexperienced (as am I with savage worlds system) and were afraid of what would happen if he connected, because his first attack raised and shook and wounded the cyberknight. I am going to go through combat options with them next session. And with Strickland they did pretty good and were looking for the non-combative option, so instantly were asking how they could talk to him which is why I included Agor (I didnt know he would be such a tough nut to crack because I was unaware I was reading toughness wrong... such a simple mistake... i feel dumb)

              Comment


              • ValhallaGH
                ValhallaGH commented
                Editing a comment
                It's all good. We all make simple mistakes, and it sounds like everyone was having a lot of fun. That's a lot better than some games I've played in.

            • #9
              Also, there's a difference between 'can't hit' and 'can't effect'. If the group is facing off against a singular Big Bad, then they should be coordinating their actions, and the characters who are not attacking directly should go first--using Tricks and Tests of Will to lower the target's Parry or, ideally, Shake him. Follow-up attacks then only need to Shake him again to inflict another Wound. (Obviously, the Wild Card can buy off Shaken with a Benny between the Test and the Attack, but then, that's one less Benny he's got for Soaking.)

              Comment


              • #10
                I like a beer before I start running my Savage Rifts game every week. Then I have a beer just after I start running it. Then I sometimes have another (can't help it, my players drive me to drink, or least encourage it!). And by the time I've begun to quaff that third frosty cold one, my already-questionable math skills have gone bye-bye.

                So, out of desperation, I turned to the powers of darkness, or, it's more commonly known, Excel.

                I made a spreadsheet that takes care of some of that math for me.

                I enter the name of an NPC or a monster or a Hero, and then put in the Toughness and Armor total, the Armor value, the AP value (subject to change depending on what weapon is being used), and then have an easy list to consult quickly to determine the status of a target in the game. It's been a boon, just makes things so much qucker and easier. In published Savage Worlds material, the Toughness and Armor total is first, then the Armor value next to is in parentheses like 28(16) or 13(7). That first number goes in the first number column, the number in the parentheses goes in the next.

                If you visit this spreadsheet and it looks huge and doesn't fit on your screen, go to View > Zoom and go to 50% or 75%. Don't forget to copy it to your own Google Drive (or to Excel if you've got it, or to Numbers if you're on an Apple device, if that's better for you) so that someone doesn't come in and change it on you while you're using it!

                https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

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                • ValhallaGH
                  ValhallaGH commented
                  Editing a comment
                  How does your sheet account for Toughness changes, like when the GRM goes Berserk?

              • #11
                I am actually running this adventure right now, and next session is the big final battle. How does Gar'Thul's abyssal nature work? Are damage rolls halved before being compared to his toughness, or are wounds inflicted halved (and how does this interact with shaken and rounding?)

                Also, I hate to say it, but Pinnacle is terrible at statblocks. They spend space listing stuff that will never come up if the creature isn't a PC, and don't spend space explaining what edges do, so the GM lacks critical information needed to run them. The party reached the final battle close to the end of the session, and were ready to give it a shot, we drew initiative... and then I realized the statblocks were incomplete, spent half an hour looking up stuff, and the party decided to end the session and pick up with the fight next time.
                Now, after hours of work, I've created statblocks that actually tell me what I need to know, and take up less space to boot (Somewhat specific to my party/situation)Click image for larger version

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                What's the point of a statblock if I have to rewrite it to make it actually usable?

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                • ValhallaGH
                  ValhallaGH commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Welcome to the forums!

                  I used to rewrite stat blocks to include more information, especially for edges I rarely used, and expand or highlight stuff I would otherwise overlook. It was really helpful.
                  I no longer do that because I've internalized most of that information, and while the basic stat blocks could be better laid out they now contain all the information I need.

                  TL;DR - you'll get used to it, eventually. Also, welcome.

                • Scottbert
                  Scottbert commented
                  Editing a comment
                  This is specifically an intro adventure. Why would the GM already be used to such things?

                • ValhallaGH
                  ValhallaGH commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Scottbert It's an intro to the setting, not to Savage Worlds. There's no shame in what you did, and it is awesome that you shared it. But it solves a problem that disappears with experience, kind of like training wheels on a bicycle - there's nothing wrong with using it, but you will eventually find yourself gaining in skill to the point that using it makes you worse at running the game.

              • #12
                How does Gar'Thul's abyssal nature work? Are damage rolls halved before being compared to his toughness, or are wounds inflicted halved (and how does this interact with shaken and rounding?)

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                • #13
                  Originally posted by Scottbert View Post
                  How does Gar'Thul's abyssal nature work? Are damage rolls halved before being compared to his toughness, or are wounds inflicted halved (and how does this interact with shaken and rounding?)
                  The former.
                  Half the damage total, then compare to Toughness. So, 35 damage, AP 6, from a normal min-Rail gun would become 17 damage, AP 6, against Gar'Thul's 21 (8) Toughness - that's effectively 17 damage against Toughness 15 (2), for a Shaken result.

                  I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                  Comment

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