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  • Magic Armour Prices Too High?

    Donald Schepis BigMike if you please:

    In regular Pathfinder, a suit of +1 plate armour (masterwork) will cost you 2,650gp to purchase (including the masterwork and enhancement costs). In Pathfinder for Savage Worlds, an equivalent set of +1 plate armour (masterwork chest, arms, legs, and helm, each with Aegis enchantment) will cost you 14,100gp.

    Is this intended, or am I mistaking how armour enchantments work? If you do not need to enchant each piece of armour separately, does it matter which piece is enchanted, or does it just count as all the pieces carrying that enchantment? If you do need to enchant each piece separately, does that mean you have an enhancement budget of 20 total slots in a suit of plate armour?

    EDIT: I am aware that there is not a direct correlation between Armor/Toughness in SW and Armor Class in PF. But even if you were to equate +1 Armour in SWPF to +2 or even +3 to AC in Pathfinder (which you would not expect to attain much earlier than 9th-12 level), the +1 in SW still costs considerably more.
    Last edited by Sarigar; 08-23-2021, 09:49 PM.

  • #2
    You have to enchant each piece. Yeah, it’s expansive, but you can’t compare each system. On PF you have +1 to +5 to AC while on SWPF only +1. The difference is how each system works. On PF you NEED that much of enchant because the monsters progress the attack bonus. Higher the CR, higher the attack.
    Savage Worlds, on the other hand you don’t see that damage progression (except for bigger creatures) and just 1 extra point on toughness can make all difference between a killing blow.
    Also, the SW design philosophy it that that you have horizontal progression, so, even a heroic fighter can be hurt in a tavern brawl

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    • #3
      One point of Armour (not Toughness) in SW is worth very little. It's certainly not worth 9000-12,000g. AP is found on many weapons, and every significant opponent you will face from Seasoned onward will nearly always have AP 2 or greater. A masterwork greataxe with Keen entirely negates the armour value of plate armour with Aegis. Even a normal greataxe (AP 3) renders +1 Leather armour utterly useless.

      I've been running a high fantasy SW campaign weekly for almost two years, I have abundant practical experience with Toughness/Armour values. 12,000g for +1 Armour is for suckers, frankly. That's why I am asking if that is the intent. The Fortification enchantment is of hugely greater value than Aegis, and you only have to buy that for one piece.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Sarigar View Post
        AP is found on many weapons, and every significant opponent you will face from Seasoned onward will nearly always have AP 2 or greater. A masterwork greataxe with Keen entirely negates the armour value of plate armour with Aegis. Even a normal greataxe (AP 3) renders +1 Leather armour utterly useless.
        Indeed. You are right, I didn’t think about this

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        • #5
          I agree there is an issue with the armors, Sarigar (cool name by the way, I read Alien Legion when I was a kid). I'm still undecided on exactly how to handle it, but this is what I've written so far:

          Full Suits of Armor: Armor is usually sold as a full suit, not piecemeal. Because of this, you can buy a full suit of Light Armor (leather) for 40gp (20 wt), a full suit of Medium armor (Chain or Hide) for 200gp (35 wt), and a full suit of Heavy Armor (Plate) for 1,500gp (55 wt). Masterwork adds +300gp to the base cost, and special materials can add much more. Magic can be applied for 1 cost to the entire suit (see pg 210).

          Adamantine: In addition to the +2AP for weapons and armor, items made from this material count as a Heavy Weapon or Heavy Armor for damage. For ranged weapons, the price is per 20 pieces of ammo crafted/bought. The cost for a full suit of Adamantine is +1,500gp/AB point.

          Mithral: Mithral armor has -1 Armor penalty for being masterwork, and another -1 for being mithral, in addition to the weight reduction. The cost for a full suit of Mithral is +1,000gp/AB point.

          (I think the key to solving the issues is to treat a suit of armor as a single item, not a bunch of individual items. I personally think Adamantine is very overpriced, but by making them count as Heavy Weapons and Armor (like a vehicle) and cutting the price in half, it helps to justify it a bit more. So Medium Adamantine armor would cost 4,700 gp, and Heavy would cost 7,500 gp. Adding a +1 Aegis magical bonus to the entire suit would cost an additional +3,000gp. Treat the entire suit as a single item and many of the problems are reduced.)

          Comment


          • Sarigar
            Sarigar commented
            Editing a comment
            I didn't even want to get into the special materials, but it is a valid point, and you propose a sound solution! I believe the intent is for the enchant to affect all armour pieces, but I am hopeful we can get official clarification on that.

            I like the idea of treating adamantine armour as Heavy Armour, since there's no enchantment that does that, but less persuaded about it applying to weapons; the Brutal enchantment is 5000gp, it would be rendered irrelevant if adamantine weapons had the same effect at zero enchantment slot cost (on top of adding +1 AP).

          • Samurai007
            Samurai007 commented
            Editing a comment
            Adamantine weapons should be able to affect Adamantine armored foes, so they'd have to be Heavy Weapons to affect Heavy Armor. The synergy between the two works for me.

            However, your point about the Brutal enchantment is well taken I would either reduce the cost of Brutal and/or give it additional abilities. Saying that a weapon is "brutal" IMHO implies causing more grievous wounds, not punching through a vehicle's armor. What if a Brutal Weapon enchantment means you may roll the damage twice and take the better result? That seems like it would be worth at least 5,000gp, maybe more. That leaves Heavy Weapons to Adamantine.

          • Mithdraug
            Mithdraug commented
            Editing a comment
            Gritty Damage optional rule from SWADE would also work here, though that can be harsh, especially against players. It also feel VERY brutal. I run a campaign in a setting called The After where heavy weapons do Gritty Damage.

        • #6
          In savage worlds, there isn’t much reason to get the enchantment on anything other than the chest, as that is where you will be hit most of the time, barring a called shot or special ability. If you have full plate armor with just the Aegis enchantment on the breastplate, you will almost always get the full bonus, and if they do a called shot to circumvent it, they will only be negating one point of armor. (Unless it is to an open face or eye slit, but that would bypass fully enchanted armor as well) I personally don’t see it as an issue.

          Comment


          • #7
            Hey Sarigar,

            Let me start by answering your initial question.

            There are a few things that played into the price change.

            First and probably the most obvious is the fact that in the end, the only piece you really need to enchant is the chest. This will protect you from 90% of incoming attacks.

            Second is the fact that weapons and armor only enchant up to +5 rather than the Paizo level of +10. In the long run, this means you are spending less on enchanting gear overall.

            Third is the change in how its priced. Rather than having to calculate what is spent on gear and what the next level of gear costs, you simply pick the enchantment you want and get it. Getting the +1 early on is more expensive, but getting it later is cheaper compared to the Paizo version.

            We ran through ROTR and did several versions of each character. When starting out or averaging new gold based on where we were (Rank, location in the adventures, average gear of the party, etc) and what we were fighting, it worked out. Many characters eventually got other gear pieces enchanted because they couldn't get everything they wanted on a chest and thus expanded.

            In a similar light, potions and scrolls wont be the same cost as in Paizo's version either. Some of these are just different because of the conversion to Savage Worlds.

            Some things may be a bit more expensive starting out, however, in the long run they averaged out pretty well.

            We also wanted to keep the armor as individual pieces since that is a key aspect of armor in Savage Worlds.

            I will also pivot for a moment and talk about Armor vs AP in SWPF.

            As always, I will look at things like this when players feel as though something is off. That being said, we worked hard on the armor and in what we tested, the ratio was where we wanted it.

            I would also like to throw out there that we have yet to cover every enchantment and special material in the pathfinder universe. There is simply too much to cover in one book. I bring this up because, perhaps there are other things planned that help factor into the core book enchantments (such as an enchantment for armor that reduces the AP of weapons).

            We do our best to balance against not only what is out in this book, but also what comes next.

            I hope this helps provide some insight on gear costs and why some choices were made.

            Comment


            • Sarigar
              Sarigar commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks Mike, I appreciate the thorough explanation! That all makes sense, and I have faith in your design and testing process.
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