Ok, now that the forums are back, what's this about a new edition of Deadlands??

[IlzmerZolond]

Okay, that helps. Looks like we had some miscommunication and depth of flavor was confused with depth of power.

If memory serves, shamans used to work a lot differently before being "deluxe-ified." I seem to remember there being a ritual mechanic, but the restriction on needing the Old Ways Oath Hindrance wasn't fun and didn't seem to warrant the investiture. It both limited the posses options and shamans were unlikely to regularly perform rituals to gain the benefits. Personally, I'd flavor the appeasement points as their power points, which naturally replenish over time because of their constant communion. And the guardian spirit idea from Ghost Dancers was adapted into the Spirit-Touched Knack from Last Sons; which also got rolled up with Tempests and a few other old ideas.

That being said, if they were to go back to performing rituals for appeasement points how would you structure it differently than a huckster's DwtD? Because, from my point of view, they're mechanically similar ideas. Both ask a favor, perform an action as part of striking a bargain, and then see if what they did is enough to get what they asked for. Should they just drag out the ritual into lasting more than 1 round of 6 seconds? Or do you have another idea in mind?

Guardian Spirits aren't the same as performing rituals for appeasement points -- Shaman in core Classic performed rituals for appeasement points, but they were unplayably bad, because they had no ability to bank appeasement points and the only way to gain more than 1 appeasement at a time was to either perform a lengthy ritual and cast the very moment the ritual ended, or disfigure yourself. So anything costing more than 1 appeasement was off-limits without ritual casting (or maiming, which isn't a sustainable strategy).

Guardian Spirit comes along in the Ghost Dancers book, and it offers an ability to bank Appeasement by saying: this is the spirit you are appeasing. This is what their personality and role are like. This is the type of Medicine (there were six spell schools for shamanism in Ghost Dancers) they're best at granting you, and you get some of it for free and your banked Appeasement spent on it costs double, because that's what the spirit is about. Here are special powers that you can spend Fate Chips on, and the White and Red abilities are unique to your particular guardian and how they see the world and how they act on the world -- they make you better at doing what that spirit likes. Here's the oath your guardian spirit wants you to adhere to, it's much more narrowly applicable than "be a good person as defined by the Bible", and you have many to choose from, so it's more flavorful and less straitjacketing. The generic became defined, and you had a relationship with this entity that granted you powers, it had mechanical weight, it helped you define your character and what they do.

I'm all for being able to reskin things -- the group I am running now has a "Shaman" who doesn't truck with spirits but actually has contracts with the Fair Folk, I think that's great, I like that there's enough give in the rules that I can do that. But Spirit Touched just is too generic. It's just "a way to get extra power points", there's no definition of your patron, it doesn't give you power because you do what it likes. It can be shamanism, or a miracle, or magic, and it's identical either way save the backlash for a 1 if it's magic. There's no feel that you have this relationship that colors how you see the world.

And the problem with trying to bring them back is, they're a whole package. You need like 5 pages minimum detailing "this is the outlook of Snake and Snake's place in the world, this is what Snake is good at, this is what Snake makes you good at, this is what Snake wants you to do (repeat everything someone says as a question?), this is the outlook of Spider and Spider's place in the world, etc etc." If every Arcane Background gets that level of treatment, then that's 40 pages of the book devoted to Arcane Backgrounds before we get to the list of powers. That's no good.

I mean, if page count and focus were no issue, I'd definitely go with guardian spirits. They'd have a lot of Fate Chip abilities that altered how you interacted with your spells, like the equivalent of metamagic feats, or they'd grant abilities that supplement or are supplemented by spellcasting. But I don't think it's feasible because they take too much space and effort.

So that's why I pitched some kind of "you are about the land and connection with the land, you can make a connection with an area, and you empower it and it empowers you" kind of thing. Or maybe it really is about ritual casting, and shaman have the ability to cast normally, but they can also ritual-cast taking much more time and effort to get a much better (longer-lasting, extended, cheaper, etc.) effect.

[Jounichi]

Guardian Spirits aren't the same as performing rituals for appeasement points -- Shaman in core Classic performed rituals for appeasement points, but they were unplayably bad, because they had no ability to bank appeasement points and the only way to gain more than 1 appeasement at a time was to either perform a lengthy ritual and cast the very moment the ritual ended, or disfigure yourself. So anything costing more than 1 appeasement was off-limits without ritual casting (or maiming, which isn't a sustainable strategy).

Guardian Spirit comes along in the Ghost Dancers book, and it offers an ability to bank Appeasement by saying: this is the spirit you are appeasing. This is what their personality and role are like. This is the type of Medicine (there were six spell schools for shamanism in Ghost Dancers) they're best at granting you, and you get some of it for free and your banked Appeasement spent on it costs double, because that's what the spirit is about. Here are special powers that you can spend Fate Chips on, and the White and Red abilities are unique to your particular guardian and how they see the world and how they act on the world -- they make you better at doing what that spirit likes. Here's the oath your guardian spirit wants you to adhere to, it's much more narrowly applicable than "be a good person as defined by the Bible", and you have many to choose from, so it's more flavorful and less straitjacketing. The generic became defined, and you had a relationship with this entity that granted you powers, it had mechanical weight, it helped you define your character and what they do.

I never said that guardian spirits were the same as performing rituals. Heck, I don't think I ever implied it. That being said, banking appeasement points has been translated into the shaman's regular daily rituals and the usual pool of power points. It's a more passive approach than before, but it fits their lore and is consistent with the rules for other ABs. And guardian spirits weren't unique to shamans, either, which is why I imagine that concept was later rolled in with Tempests to create the Spirit-Touched. If you want a more personal connection to a singular spirit, then Totem Spirit is probably where it's at. It's not a perfect 1:1, but no adaptation is.

But Spirit Touched just is too generic. It's just "a way to get extra power points", there's no definition of your patron, it doesn't give you power because you do what it likes. It can be shamanism, or a miracle, or magic, and it's identical either way save the backlash for a 1 if it's magic. There's no feel that you have this relationship that colors how you see the world.

And the problem with trying to bring them back is, they're a whole package. You need like 5 pages minimum detailing "this is the outlook of Snake and Snake's place in the world, this is what Snake is good at, this is what Snake makes you good at, this is what Snake wants you to do (repeat everything someone says as a question?), this is the outlook of Spider and Spider's place in the world, etc etc." If every Arcane Background gets that level of treatment, then that's 40 pages of the book devoted to Arcane Backgrounds before we get to the list of powers. That's no good.

I mean, if page count and focus were no issue, I'd definitely go with guardian spirits. They'd have a lot of Fate Chip abilities that altered how you interacted with your spells, like the equivalent of metamagic feats, or they'd grant abilities that supplement or are supplemented by spellcasting. But I don't think it's feasible because they take too much space and effort.

That "backlash" with the manitou taking control of the power is always there, regardless of which AB the power comes from. But that's not the point. Having too much of a good thing is a problem. And when dealing with game mechanics, this can easily lead to bloat and a loss of focus. Guardian spirits were always an optional mechanic even in classic. So while I get the temptation to include them here, it's not necessarily the right thing to do. And if they're ancillary, then any inclusion should not obscure what they're intended to compliment. Maybe re-writing Patron Spirit and Totem Spirit to allow either the Spirit-Touched Knack or their respective AB is a step in the right direction. But, coming back to adaptation for a moment, lots of things changed. Hucksters no longer learn hexes from studying copies of Hoyle's. Lower grade Agents make less money per month in salary, but they're no longer prevented from taking side jobs. (I imagine that had something to do with not honestly being able to support themselves on basic pay.) And I can't think of a single firearm which didn't experience a tweak, no matter how slight.

So that's why I pitched some kind of "you are about the land and connection with the land, you can make a connection with an area, and you empower it and it empowers you" kind of thing. Or maybe it really is about ritual casting, and shaman have the ability to cast normally, but they can also ritual-cast taking much more time and effort to get a much better (longer-lasting, extended, cheaper, etc.) effect.

Make them too much about "the land" and they're like a D&D ranger outside of their favored terrain. I think the flavor you're looking for might already be there. It just might be presented in a way you're unaccustomed to; which can lead to rejection or blindness. And if that reads like a criticism of you, it's not. We all get tunnel vision or put on a pair of rose-colored glasses from time to time. That being said, I would love to see proper ritual casting rules (even if they're just reprints of what's in the Horror Companion). And I can think of several ABs which would benefit.

[IlzmerZolond]

"Because manitous are so unpredictable, tempests with this knack take a bigger risk than other spirit-touched heroes. If a tempest rolls a 1 on his Spirit die (regardless of the Wild Die) the manitou takes control of the power."

[Jounichi]

I had a feeling I should have double-checked the book. Ceste la vie.

[screenmonkey]

Are we going to see two books to make a character (SWB & DL) and a non reckoner related PPC?

[lunchmoney]

Ppc?

[Jounichi]

Plot Point Campaign

[JackMann]

It's true that Martial Artists don't have to deal with lynch mobs as much as Hucksters do, but neither do Blessed or Mad Scientists. While Martial Artists have fewer weaknesses than the other ABs, they don't really have any huge strengths, either. They have higher starting power points, and they can use two powers in the same round (albeit with a multi-action penalty).

However, the huge cost in skills means they need to be much more selective in picking their powers. It also means that they're going to be able to contribute less in non-combat encounters, since they have to put more skill points into their powers and fewer into skills that help in other situations. Since a martial artist isn't really any better in combat than a mad scientist or a huckster who also focuses on it, it's a pretty harsh penalty.

I don't know if you consider this a problem, necessarily, but I found that the AB was actually much stronger if you just had the practitioner use guns instead of martial arts. There are plenty of powers that are just as useful on a gunslinger as on a martial artist, and guns tend to be a little more powerful in Deadlands than melee. Not as bad as in futuristic settings, but enough that they have to really think about terrain and cover.

I'd love to see some more synergy between Chi Mastery and Martial Arts. Maybe let them use certain powers in the same round they make a melee attack, similar to a hexslinger's ability to use aim, boost/lower Shooting, and smite for free. I don't think that would be too powerful, given the other limitations of the AB and melee in a gunslinging setting.

[Jounichi]

It's true that Martial Artists don't have to deal with lynch mobs as much as Hucksters do, but neither do Blessed or Mad Scientists. While Martial Artists have fewer weaknesses than the other ABs, they don't really have any huge strengths, either. They have higher starting power points, and they can use two powers in the same round (albeit with a multi-action penalty).

However, the huge cost in skills means they need to be much more selective in picking their powers. It also means that they're going to be able to contribute less in non-combat encounters, since they have to put more skill points into their powers and fewer into skills that help in other situations. Since a martial artist isn't really any better in combat than a mad scientist or a huckster who also focuses on it, it's a pretty harsh penalty.

I don't know if you consider this a problem, necessarily, but I found that the AB was actually much stronger if you just had the practitioner use guns instead of martial arts. There are plenty of powers that are just as useful on a gunslinger as on a martial artist, and guns tend to be a little more powerful in Deadlands than melee. Not as bad as in futuristic settings, but enough that they have to really think about terrain and cover.

I'd love to see some more synergy between Chi Mastery and Martial Arts. Maybe let them use certain powers in the same round they make a melee attack, similar to a hexslinger's ability to use aim, boost/lower Shooting, and smite for free. I don't think that would be too powerful, given the other limitations of the AB and melee in a gunslinging setting.

I think you're underestimating chi masters. They only need two Edges and four Skill points to be considered even moderately competent. And between the 11 remaining Skill points and two floating Hindrance points, they're pretty solid. I ran Murder on the Hellstromme Express last year (maybe in the last 18 months) and one of the players was a chi master with Thief; essentially she was a ninja. That being said, I'm not going to lie and say a gun-toting chi master isn't a powerful hybrid build. No gang-up bonus or unarmed defender status means you can wade into melee more easily than others. It does take some serious investment to really get going, though. And you can't benefit from Superior Kung Fu without some house ruling from the Marshal. (The official word is they're only for unarmed fighting; even the ones which don't affect unarmed damage.)

I proposed a twist on Jack-Of-All-Trades for chi masters which just let them ignore the unskilled penalty for untrained powers. But that was years ago and having d10+ Spirit is so niche I'm no longer convinced it's good enough.

[Augusto Antunes]

Just to put this back on everyone’s tethered Agency satellites ... the new edition of Deadlands is fully in the works. We’re pulling together new material from the PPCs, making everything compatible with Savage Worlds Black, and refocusing (not rebooting!) the setting in ways we hope you find compelling. We’re taking it back to the very essence of Deadlands to create the most rip-roarin’ edition yet.

As for why we’re doing a new edition ... we have mostly sold out of Reloaded, and with SWB comin’ at ya now seems like the perfect time. The new corebook will be Deadlands: The Weird West, with everything in one 192-page, graphic novel size book. We’ve also got a bunch of supplements planned for the line, including the long-awaited Relics book.

No, I mean the game's focus will return to "Cowboys & Zombies" -- wandering heroes fighting the Fear -- instead of long stretches of text hashing out alternate history.

More "your plots," less metaplot.

Ok, I'm sure you can't talk much about it at the moment, so asking for more information might be a waste of space on the forums... But since this is something you probably already know and should be able to reveal without spoiling much (if you want to), I gotta ask:

Does this mean the setting will move ahead in time? I mean, Deadlands Reloaded starts in 1879 and the four servitor campaigns take the setting well into 1883. By the time Good Intentions comes to a close, the Weird West is already a very different place than what was initially presented in the Reloaded Player's Guide and Marshal's Handbook. I'm wondering if this new edition will be set after the servitor campaigns and the return of the Cackler in the timeline. Let's say 1884, maybe?

[PEGCutter]

Are we going to see two books to make a character (SWB & DL) and a non reckoner related PPC?

Yes to both. Hopefully *many* non-Reckoner, non-Servitor Plot Point Campaigns.

I'm wondering if this new edition will be set after the servitor campaigns and the return of the Cackler in the timeline. Let's say 1884, maybe?

Exactly right. The new edition is set in 1884, taking into account the events of the Time o' the Servitors (1879–1883) and the Cackler's return.

[Augusto Antunes]

Cool! That's exactly what I hoped it would be. Thanks for the reply.

[Jounichi]

With the changes to repeating actions in SWADE, is it safe to assume Chi Masters now have a single arcane skill?

[Erolat]

I don't see how one has bearing on the other. A gunslinger can taunt, assist, and shoot; a Chi Master can Deflection, Armor, and Bolt. They both are using three different skills and would suffer -4 on all checks.

[Jounichi]

The difference is, under the new rules, a Huckster could do all three at once as well with just one skill. Allowing Chi Masters to rely on a single skill frees up skill points. Especially since the primary advantage of assigning each power its own skill is gone.

[PEGCutter]

There are some other, as yet unannounced, features in SWADE that may have a strong influence on chi masters.

But we won't have Deadlands nailed down until the SWADE KS is truly done and we can better focus on it..

[PEGCutter]

Well, I guess I can say it now!

As far as Arcane Backgrounds for chi masters, Gifted (arcane skill Focus) seems like a natural fit. That's just me throwing out ideas for now, so I'm not sure how it'll shake out.

[JackMann]

Well, I guess I can say it now!

As far as Arcane Backgrounds for chi masters, Gifted (arcane skill Focus) seems like a natural fit. That's just me throwing out ideas for now, so I'm not sure how it'll shake out.

Agreed. Gifted looks like a much stronger AB than Super Powers was. Being able to take two new powers with an Edge is going to help a lot as they grow.

In general, Martial Arts looks like it'll be a lot stronger as well, which boosts the overall archetype. You'll still have the problem of getting into melee in a setting filled with guns, but there are plenty of ways to deal with that, from Deflection, to the Dodge and Acrobatics Edges.

EDIT: One thing to think about: When you change the trappings for Martial Artist Powers, I'd avoid outright nerfing them to the degree they are now. Like, I don't think I've ever seen anyone take the Burst Power for a Martial Artist, since it does less than half the damage on average and can't be used indoors. Generally, players are just going to gravitate to the powers that haven't been nerfed heavily. Boost/Lower Trait is just as good for a Martial Artist as it is for a Blessed. If you do nerf a power for them, consider giving them something benefit them. Maybe Burst does less damage, but the Martial Artist can ignore his friends in the cone template as he precisely directs the earth and stone where he wants it. Think of ways to make a player say "That's cool, I want my character doing that!"