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“Old Ways” isn’t a Hindrance

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  • IlzmerZolond
    commented on 's reply
    Okay, the GM makes you spend an Advance on buying it off. It should have cost an Advance anyway because it is an Edge, so even if the GM does this and even if it costs a whole advance instead of half of one because it was a minor hindrance, it's still basically a half-cost Edge because you don't have to refund the half an advance you got for it being a minor hindrance. And you don't have to pay for it right away.

    But "never being impeded by it" isn't even the worst case! You can still be limited by the Hindrance when you want to earn bennies from it, there's just no penalty to not being hindered by it when you want the technology more than the benny. This hindrance doesn't limit you, it just presents you with a choice, and the options are all upside.

  • ValhallaGH
    commented on 's reply
    As I mentioned earlier, ignore a Hindrance long enough and your GM will make you spend an Advance buying it off. Not to mention the lack of bennies.

  • IlzmerZolond
    replied
    "Old Ways" actually isn't a hindrance, because the penalty for not following the oath is lack of access to the unique benefit the hindrance gives you. You can completely ignore it and not be any worse off than if you hadn't taken a Hindrance at all. It's an Edge that says "As long as you maintain this conduct, you have access to this ability" but it costs -0.5 Edge picks to get it.

    The penalty for breaking the Oath needs to be worse than "you don't have access to this free reroll" for this to be a hindrance.

    Leave a comment:


  • paladin2019
    commented on 's reply
    Saddles and stirrups are an incredible advantage to riding, specifically fighting from a mount. The fact the exemplar lifelong bareback rider can do what he does is because he has enough Skill to compensate for the penalties and still routinely make his rolls. Put him in a saddle and minimal time to acclimate and his capability increases just because of the saddle. So rather than give all saddle users a bonus, a comprehensive penalty is more in order. The specific tasks I see as appropriate include rolls against falling and Fighting rolls (you can't lance with a spear without stirrups, so you limits your striking options).

  • paladin2019
    commented on 's reply
    Equine evolutionary ancestors developed on the American continents but either migrated en masse to Asian long before humans domesticated them or succumbed to climate change and the humans who migrated in. Modern, horses capable of bearing riders are a European import to the Americas.

  • MadArchivist
    commented on 's reply
    I didn’t realize that was a new thing. Wow, that was bad, i’m glad they changed it back.
    I can’t speak for others, all i know is that the Old Ways seems like a hefty hindrance that could theoretically be fun to RP. So i think having a strong benefit following the same logic as Grim Servant O’ Death would make it more feasible in a party that didn’t also have the hindrance.

  • ellipses
    commented on 's reply
    But Shamans *didn’t* have to take the Old Ways hindrance before in previous editions of the game, which is one of the reasons it made no sense to add it in this edition.

    Personally, I think the reason Shamans were rare, at least in my experience, is because they’ve always been overly complicated (Guardian Spirits, various Ritual skills, needing X number of hours per day for Rituals, etc.) and also because it’s hard for a predominately white audience to role play a Native American of the Paiute tribe convincingly when they could just be a Christian Blessed from Wisconsin instead.

  • MadArchivist
    commented on 's reply
    You do have a fair point on the religion aspects. I’m not 100% sure how to handle it, but some form of benefit from the hindrance is a good idea. Not having access to modern technology is a huge restriction and it only made sense to take it historically because Shamans had to abide by it no matter what and that resulted in most people not playing Shaman. Now Shaman is far more accessible, but the Old Ways don’t have that guaranteed take anymore, so there has to be another reason to take it.
    Also, my condolences on not having Heroic players, that hindrance is fun as hell to use both as a player and gm
    Last edited by MadArchivist; 07-01-2020, 11:09 PM.

  • ellipses
    commented on 's reply
    Man, I wish I had the type of players inclined to take the Heroic Hindrance, but no...

  • MadArchivist
    commented on 's reply
    I disagree, not being able to use trains is a lot more disruptive than playing a ttrpg like you would anyway.
    This will get tweaked for sure, but i’m guessing this is going to be closer to the final version. If you need a lore excuse, the ritual that made tech rot apart in the sioux nations could’ve boosted the effects of following the spirits.

  • ellipses
    commented on 's reply
    To come at this from another angle, it is absolutely possible to play a devout Christian/Jew/Muslim/Buddhist/take your pick that isn’t actually a Blessed, and they won’t get any kind of favorable treatment from the benevolent Powers That Be, nor will they get penalized when they inevitably fail to live up to the tenants of their faith.

  • ellipses
    commented on 's reply
    I absolutely agree that Heroic can be easy to role play, but Heroic is a *much* broader Hindrance than an Old Ways oath. “Charges selflessly into danger for little to no reward” is a much more all-encompassing character trait than “uses bows instead of firearms.” We’ve already established that there are plenty of role playing scenarios playing off the Old Ways Hindrance, not getting bennies for failing to live up to your oath is your mechanical penalty.

    Again, in the entire history of Deadlands going back to 1996, Old Ways has *never* granted any kind of bonus or had a supernatural interaction with non-Shaman characters. This didn’t even exist in v1-v3 of the prerelease. This is a massive overcorrection from “all Shamans have to take Old Ways,“ which I disagreed with, to “Old Ways followers are unshakable, unfearing, paragons of willpower because they won’t take a train.”

    I will be shocked if this doesn’t get erratad out between now and the print release with a return of the Minor/Major variant.

  • MadArchivist
    commented on 's reply
    Heroic is a fairly easy hindrance to RP well and no bennies is a mechanical penalty. heroic is relatively narrow in terms of what is affects vs what old ways affects. Additionally the old ways states that you are acting in accordance with the spirits of nature, which are working against the reckoning, that gives the hindrance a decisive supernatural bent.
    While the old ways hasn’t provided a benefit before, this change makes the hindrance more interesting for the average player. More people are going to want to play Shamans now that they can use technology and more people are going to want to take the Old Ways hindrance now that the substantial penalty of ‘no tech’ is counterbalanced with a strong benefit. I think it’ll be more fun overall, but that’s me as a newcomer.
    Last edited by MadArchivist; 07-01-2020, 09:32 PM.

  • ellipses
    commented on 's reply
    The Old Ways doesn’t have a supernatural component unless you’re a Shaman though. Old Ways has never granted a benefit to a non arcane Old Ways follower.

    Also what is the *mechanical* incentive to take the Heroic Hindrance, and what is the penalty when a player doesn’t role play their Heroic Hindrance?
    Last edited by ellipses; 07-01-2020, 09:18 PM. Reason: Edited to be less unintentionally combative

  • MadArchivist
    commented on 's reply
    given the supernatural elements connected with the Old Ways, it doesn’t really make sense to make it a purely RP hindrance.
    Plus, no-one is going to take it without some prodding given the drawbacks it applies. ‘Reject all modern technology’ is not really comparable to ‘be a hero all the time’ as hindrances go.
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