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[DLWW] Harrowed's "Supernatural Attribute" - am I missing something?

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  • EricaOdd
    commented on 's reply
    Opinions expressed and noted. Let's keep it civil moving forward. Thanks!

  • pkitty
    commented on 's reply
    You have the right to disagree with someone, but not to be rude and condescending about it. Mind your tone, please.

  • Deskepticon
    commented on 's reply
    That makes absolutely no sense to me. Character Creation is a process that is only "finalized" when everything is complete. Any changes made at a later step have retroactive results. So if you took an Edge that bumped an attribute die after you already spent all your skill points, any skills that had previously exceeded the linked attribute get a point back.

    The inverse of that would be a hypothetical Edge /ability that provides a skill at d4 (such as the IFs in Rifts). By taking such an Edge /ability and pushing the skill die above a linked attribute, you now need to spend an additional skill point for that die-type. In other words, you don't get any points "for free."

    The process can be made easier by doing certain steps first (like choosing an Framework before spending attribute /skill points), but the fundamental principles of CharGen don't change.
    Last edited by Deskepticon; 07-04-2020, 05:21 AM.

  • ValhallaGH
    commented on 's reply
    Huh. An amorphous process is how it works in the core rules.
    Looking at the Deadlands setting book again, it does have character creation in a numbered list, implying that for this setting character creation is a rigid check list.

  • Wanderingmystic
    replied
    @VahallaGH I only said that because during the rifts kickstarter people said that and they came back with a resounding no that every step had to happen in an exact order. Now that could have been just for rifts but they follow that rule with all of the pre made characters.

    Leave a comment:


  • ValhallaGH
    commented on 's reply
    Character creation is an amorphous blob. You have to do all the parts, and they all have to be correct, but you can spend all your skill points after you choose your Edges.

  • Wanderingmystic
    replied
    At your own table just drop it down to +1. This was raised in Lost Colony and the designers felt like the +2 was ok then. Honestly I don't see it making that much of a difference at most tables. The +2 vigor will most likely be the number 1 choice which just goes to reinforce the goal of making harrowed tough. Melee builds are rare in Deadlands and those who are are usually Chi master, scrapers, or indian warriors so you wont see a harrowed at character creation so the +2 to strength will be rare. The +2 to agility is very nice now that it increases skill caps but since you pick your edge after you set your stats and skills ot will still require two advances to bump skills up your new cap.

    Leave a comment:


  • ValhallaGH
    commented on 's reply
    If the power of evil wasn't seductive then only thoughtless fools would get pulled in by it.

  • jamiemalk
    replied
    Originally posted by pkitty View Post

    Yes, and it was one of the biggest problems with Deadlands IMO. I was hoping that the approach in the new edition would be to attempt to keep characters balanced with each other.
    Noooo


    The bizzare obsession with "balance" is by far the worst trend in gaming this century.

    Edit; If this is either rude or condescending then i'm at a loss. It's one of the gentlest dissagreements i could have made while expressing my opinion...
    Last edited by jamiemalk; 08-12-2020, 11:00 PM.

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  • pkitty
    replied
    Originally posted by ellipses View Post
    On top of everything everyone else has pointed out, Harrowed have always been unbalanced. Being Harrowed has always been a huge boost in power.
    Yes, and it was one of the biggest problems with Deadlands IMO. I was hoping that the approach in the new edition would be to attempt to keep characters balanced with each other.

    Leave a comment:


  • ellipses
    replied
    On top of everything everyone else has pointed out, Harrowed have always been unbalanced. Being Harrowed has always been a huge boost in power.

    The balance, so to speak, is that players don’t normally start as Harrowed without GM permission, and it’s almost always left up to chance whether a PC will come back or not.

    Also, Harrowed were previously balanced by the fact that the player could lose control at any given moment, which actually leads to my biggest concern, that the manitou doesn’t have a way of trying to proactively take control, which is a huge shift from how it’s historically been handled. There’s even mention of the fact that a manitou will try to prevent their host from being Resurrected, but it’s unclear how they would do that. I don’t know how many more pages they want to devote to Harrowed in the rule book, but I would be much happier if they incorporated a version of the old rules about Dominion.

    Leave a comment:


  • ValhallaGH
    replied
    Originally posted by pkitty View Post
    So the Harrowed gets a special Edge now
    You mention it like it was new, but it's been in Deadlands since Classic (as Supernatural Trait).
    In 2006, with Reloaded, Supernatural Trait could be taken a total of five times (once per Attribute) and gave +2 to current and maximum for the chosen Attribute. It gave Harrowed a feeling of genuine supernatural power that others couldn't have - and while it was strong it wasn't so strong that it outshone the other options, and the only version every Harrowed took was Vigor.

    What this new version does, that was not previously done in Savage Worlds, is the last clause.
    This increases the limit for that Trait (and any linked skills) a like amount.
    That's crazy powerful, allowing a Harrowed Huckster to have Spellcasting d12+2, gunslinger to have Shooting d12+2, or martial artist to have Fighting d12+2 at Seasoned rank. At Legendary, their new maximum is d12+4 in any given skill.

    So, I have concerns about Supernatural Attribute. But they aren't the concerns you raise.

    Leave a comment:


  • paladin2019
    replied
    Originally posted by pkitty View Post
    (This has already been raised in playtest and the designers have chosen to keep it as-is, so this is not a feedback thread. It's a discussion thread, as I think this is worth talking about. If the designers are willing to share some insights, that'd be amazing and helpful, of course.)

    So the Harrowed gets a special Edge now -- Supernatural Attribute -- that grants somewhere around three Advances worth of benefit for a single Advance. By my reckoning, for +2 points, you get . . .

    1. +2d to a single attribute (worth +4)
    2. +2d to your new maximum for that attribute (worth +1 or +2)
    3. Doesn't count as your "once per Rank" attribute option (worth something, +0.5 to +1?)

    So, does anyone think this isn't unbalanced? Especially considering that you can take it five times, once for every single attribute you have. I feel like this exists only to make the Harrowed better than other characters, and I'm not sure why they need that.
    What is the point of this? It's simply to provide a mechanical means of changing the character's race to a more powerful one.

    First, your breakdown. 2 has no cost. It is a standard component of both the racial attribute improvement and the Professional Edge tree. 3 also has no cost for the same reason. But it is still more powerful than Professional.

    First, it lacks the Requirements of the Edge. Having to die and get lucky on the draw may be an appropriate tradeoff. Second, raising the limit for linked Skills is a new feature. Nowhere before has raising an Attribute also raised other limits.

    But what is the intent? Does this Edge meet the intent of being the mechanic to change the character's race? And does that justify the greater benefits? For additional consideration, figure the ersatz Outsider (Minor) and Secret (Major) (converting to Enemy and Wanted if discovered) Hindrances built into the Harrowed background.

    Yeah, it's more powerful and the limit raise for linked Skills may be too much, but I don't think it's game breaking.

    EDIT: Let's also look at likely or reasonable builds. I don't see this being used more than once or twice for any character. Vigor is universally useful and fits the revenant theme of Harrowed. Beyond that, a caster might want to improve Smarts to increase the range of whatever hex he's slingin'. A bruiser might want more Strength for more melee damage. Otherwise, I don't see much use for the others as Attributes don't do much within SWADE.
    Last edited by paladin2019; 06-28-2020, 01:48 PM.

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  • pkitty
    replied
    Personally, my instincts are to house rule this way, way down into an Edge that's still better than "just" an attribute bump, but not three times better. I'm thinking about this:

    Supernatural Attribute: One of the Harrowed's attributes immediately goes up by a die type. In addition, his maximums for that attribute and all linked skills go up as well (usually to d12+1). This Edge may be taken up to five times, once for each attribute, in addition to the standard option to raise an attribute once per Rank as an Advance.

    That's still better than a usual attribute bump in two ways (it raises your maximum, and it can stack with raising attributes) without adding two die types. Thoughts?

    Leave a comment:


  • [DLWW] Harrowed's "Supernatural Attribute" - am I missing something?

    (This has already been raised in playtest and the designers have chosen to keep it as-is, so this is not a feedback thread. It's a discussion thread, as I think this is worth talking about. If the designers are willing to share some insights, that'd be amazing and helpful, of course.)

    So the Harrowed gets a special Edge now -- Supernatural Attribute -- that grants somewhere around three Advances worth of benefit for a single Advance. By my reckoning, for +2 points, you get . . .

    1. +2d to a single attribute (worth +4)
    2. +2d to your new maximum for that attribute (worth +1 or +2)
    3. Doesn't count as your "once per Rank" attribute option (worth something, +0.5 to +1?)

    So, does anyone think this isn't unbalanced? Especially considering that you can take it five times, once for every single attribute you have. I feel like this exists only to make the Harrowed better than other characters, and I'm not sure why they need that.
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