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  • Build for a harrowed templar

    Hello everyone !

    I'm starting soon a game of deadlands hell on earth, and, as I'm always kind of a power gamer, I'd like to try to make him as powerful as possible. My starting feats would be veteran of the wasted west, templar, and harrowed, but beyond that, I'm not sure which is best. I see a lot of sweet things in the kung fu edge, so I was thinking taking martial artists, then a few times kung fu edges to get some benefits, and also supernatural attribute from harrowed to get good strength and vigor (for toughness) less expensively.




    Can you suggest a build, or feats, gear, in fact, anything ?




    Thanks a lot !

  • #2
    Hello!

    You're obviously new to the forum (post count) and sound like you're new to Savage Worlds. As such, I'll cover a few things you need to keep in mind:
    • There are lots of kinds of power: Combat power, Social power, Economic power, and even Arcane power.
    • Combat in Savage Worlds can be absurdly deadly. Anything that is allowed to roll damage is also allowed to one-hit kill you. The reverse is also true (any build can one-hit kill anything it is allowed to roll damage on).
    • Social power can be almost as absurdly broken. Having a +6 or +8 Charisma and a good Persuasion and Streetwise allows a character to find out almost anything and convince enemies to be neutral or neutrals to be close allies.
    • Picking a single focus makes it much easier to maximize that aspect. Parry, Toughness, unarmed damage, driving, shooting, or any other single ability is much easier to focus on.

    For a Harrowed Templar, you need to settle on your focus. Do you want to be a sword fighter, a magical healer, a gunman, or something else?
    It sounds like you want to focus on close combat. While martial artist builds eventually become stupidly-strong (d12+d6+16 per hit, more with appropriate magic) that's many advances into Legendary. For a Novice build, I'd recommend a mix build, using your Templar blade - a bit of Shooting (d4 or d6), great Fighting (d10 or d12), and decent magic (Faith d6 to d8).
    Starting Harrowed requires Spirit d6+; Templar requires Spirit d8+, Faith d4+, Fighting d6+. That's two of your Attribute points, your human edge, and one edge from Hindrances.
    Harrowed gives you one power for free - while many of the powers are excellent (Cat Eyes negates the need for NVG's; Stitchin' cuts down on the self-healing and down time from wounds; Implacable is like having Improved Nerves o' Steel but stacks with it; Ghost is great for exploration and assassination; etc.), your focus makes Supernatural Trait seem like the choice for you.
    Strength d8 is generally enough at this stage, averaging 10.2 damage with a long sword (2d8), or 12.2 with Wild Attack. Parry is usually 5 for human foes, while the +2 from Wild Attack will stack with the +2 for using your Templar blade - don't Critically Fail and you'll hit Parry 6 or less.
    With your combat focus, you'll want either boost Trait or smite for your other starting power. Both are really versatile, but I think making your weapon deal extra damage and be magic is slightly stronger.

    So, a build based upon the above would be:
    Attributes: Agility d6, Smarts d4, Spirit d8, Strength d8, Vigor d10 (d6)
    Skills: Faith d6, Fighting d10, Notice d4, Shooting d4, Stealth d4, Tracking d4, +3 more skill points. Climbing, Swimming, and Driving are good choices, but consult with your Marshal about what the campaign will be like. Note that you can increase Faith, Shooting, or Stealth by one die for one point each.
    Charisma: +0/-2; Pace: 6; Parry: 7; Toughness: 7 (or 9 if using a Harrowed variant that gets +2 Toughness)
    Edges: Arcane Background (Templar), Harrowed (+2 versus Fear, , Supernatural Vigor.
    Hindrances: One Major, two Minor
    Powers: healing, smite; Power Points: 10
    Gear: White tabbard, templar sword (Str+d8; Improved Trademark), NA sidearm (9mm; Range 12/24/48, Damage 2d6, Shots 15, AP 1, 3RB) w/ 25 spare bullets, +$25.

    Good luck!
    I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

    Comment


    • #3
      Isn't the Templar blade always considered magic? Or since it ignores invulnerabilities, it basically doesn't matter right?

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks a lot for this reply ! I'm sorry if I wasn't very clear in what I was looking for though : I'm not really new to savage worlds (I played a fair bit of Deadlands reloaded, even GM one game, and played a few other games in some other savage worlds settings), so even if I may not be an expert, I know it well enough. The goal of the post was rather something along the lines of "help me make a very OP templar". Now I know it's savage worlds and an elderly librarian who throws a pen may one-shot a god, but still, combat optimization is possible, and is actually what I'm looking for here.

        So, to be clearer : I want to make the most optimized melee fighter you can come up with, with only a few restrictions :
        - He must be a templar
        - Be harrowed
        - Start with the Veteran of the Wasted West edge (the card has already been drawn, I got the bad luck hindrance)
        - He also has the minor mutation hindrance, and drew a king, so I got dodge for free (Yay!)

        Also my GM is nice and make us start with 6 points of attributes.

        For that, the build I already had was :
        Attributes: Agility d8, Smarts d4, Spirit d8, Strength d8(d4), Vigor d12 (d8)
        Skills: Faith d8, Fighting d10, Notice d4, Shooting d4, Stealth d4... (by the way, that's an entirely different questions, but which skills come up most often in HoE games ?)
        Parry: 7(9 with the shield), Toughness: 8(1)/10(3) against bullets
        Edges: Veteran of the Wasted West, Harrowed (Supernatural Strength), Martial artist, Kung-fu : Speed, Elan, Supernatural Vigor, Templar (that makes templar my seasoned edge, so I can get quickness as a starting power)
        Hindrance: Code of Honor (Major), Mutated(minor, Dodge), another minor
        Powers: healing, quickness Power points: 10
        Gear: White tabbard, Templar sword (Str+d8, Improved Trademark), Riot shield (+2 parry, +2 armor against bullets) (plan to buy a ballistic shield when I can afford it), Improvised armor (torso, +1 armor).

        The main goals after the start of the game would be to get Acrobat and Kung-fu : confusion to use agility tricks all the time, then kung-fu : power and focus for more damage and AP.
        Now, what do you think can be optimized in this build ?

        Thanks a lot

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah, that's a lot of info that needed to be in the OP.
          Regarding smite, the Templar can use it on his gun and shoot foes with magic. It comes up more often than you might think.

          So, melee combat monsters come in three flavors (with many variations): hardest hitting, highest parry, and super-tough.

          Veteran is an Edge, Harrowed is an edge, and Templar requires an edge. That's three of your (maximum) seven edges. Everything else has to come from that same pool.

          Highest Parry:
          Agility d8, Spirit d8, Vigor d8. Fighting d12 (7 skill points), Acrobat, Block, rapier templar blade, templar power boost Trait. Normally Parry would be 11, but a raise on boost Fighting would get to Parry 12. If your Marshal allows you a ballistic shield then that's +2 Parry (13 / 14).

          Super-Tough:
          Spirit d8, Vigor d12 (d12+2). Fighting d12, Brawny, Supernatural Vigor, templar power armor. Normal Toughness is 10, with +2/+4 from armor and any worn armor. Picking up Implacable would let you ignore two wound penalties, and you're still rocking Parry 8. Damage output is going to suffer unless you pump some advances into Strength (or use a rapier as your templar blade; Str+d4, Parry +1).

          Hardest Hitting:
          Modify the Great Weapon Fighter archetype (core rules). Bump Strength to d12 (extra Attribute point), replace Sweep with Veteran, add Harrowed (Supernatural Strength) and Templar (boost Trait or smite), have two advances remaining. Toughness 6 (not bad, easily improved with Vigor and armor), and damage is d12+2 + sword, with another +1/+2 from boost Strength (and another +1/+2 attack from boost Fighting) or +2/+4 from smite.


          Kung Fu is awesome, but that's one more area of specialization for your magical, undead, sword master. And you don't have enough advances to spread yourself out like that.
          Last edited by ValhallaGH; 04-06-2018, 07:10 PM. Reason: Formatting. Correcting numbers.
          I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks, that's a lot of options to consider!

            Comment


            • #7
              By focusing on nothing but Edges, you're not improving Skills or Attributes. You can boost an Attribute (Agility, Strength, Vigor, etc) once per Rank, giving you four potential improvements before becoming Legendary. You may not want to ignore that.

              Kung Fu
              You can learn these whenever you like, but what's the point? You don't reap any of the benefits of Martial Arts while armed, so it's a tax. I get that you can't learn Level Headed, but you can't learn Adept either. This reads like intentionally gimping yourself. You could just take Quick instead. It's not as effective, but it suits your build better.

              Harrowed
              The Supernatural Trait from Harrowed might be worth two advances; at the cost of occasionally losing control of your character. But is that it, do you get anything else out of the deal? Are you cool with your Marshal seizing control of your character from time to time?

              Templar
              So, here's a question: why be a Templar at Seasoned and not start sooner to become a better Templar? Templar have powers, which means power points. If you wait until being Seasoned to become a Templar, you miss out on a chance at improving your pool since the Power Points Edge can only be taken once per Rank. If you skip it at Novice, it's gone forever. And quickness burns through a lot of power points, so you'll want as many as you can spare. One of your Novice Edges should go towards that, and your Seasoned advance can be learning quickness. Plus, now you have another power. And you always have healing, so you're already more than just a beatstick . And you'll be expected to be so.

              You also get Improved Trademark Weapon with your sword. That's a Veteran Edge, and darn powerful in the hands of a Novice.

              I suggest taking Templar early and spending two advances on Power Points and New Power (quickness). Beyond that, follow ValhallaGH's advice and pick a single area to excel in.

              Comment


              • ValhallaGH
                ValhallaGH commented
                Editing a comment
                Power Points is not "gone forever". Thread

              • Jounichi
                Jounichi commented
                Editing a comment
                Huh, missed that one back in the day.

              • Brickulos
                Brickulos commented
                Editing a comment
                good to know

            • #8
              Originally posted by Jounichi View Post
              By focusing on nothing but Edges, you're not improving Skills or Attributes. You can boost an Attribute (Agility, Strength, Vigor, etc) once per Rank, giving you four potential improvements before becoming Legendary. You may not want to ignore that.

              Kung Fu
              You can learn these whenever you like, but what's the point? You don't reap any of the benefits of Martial Arts while armed, so it's a tax. I get that you can't learn Level Headed, but you can't learn Adept either. This reads like intentionally gimping yourself. You could just take Quick instead. It's not as effective, but it suits your build better.

              Harrowed
              The Supernatural Trait from Harrowed might be worth two advances; at the cost of occasionally losing control of your character. But is that it, do you get anything else out of the deal? Are you cool with your Marshal seizing control of your character from time to time?

              Templar
              So, here's a question: why be a Templar at Seasoned and not start sooner to become a better Templar? Templar have powers, which means power points. If you wait until being Seasoned to become a Templar, you miss out on a chance at improving your pool since the Power Points Edge can only be taken once per Rank. If you skip it at Novice, it's gone forever. And quickness burns through a lot of power points, so you'll want as many as you can spare. One of your Novice Edges should go towards that, and your Seasoned advance can be learning quickness. Plus, now you have another power. And you always have healing, so you're already more than just a beatstick . And you'll be expected to be so.

              You also get Improved Trademark Weapon with your sword. That's a Veteran Edge, and darn powerful in the hands of a Novice.

              I suggest taking Templar early and spending two advances on Power Points and New Power (quickness). Beyond that, follow ValhallaGH's advice and pick a single area to excel in.
              Well, for martial arts, it specifically says that it works for both armed and bare hands, as long as it is fighting attackd, so I thinknit's a sweet deal. After all, one is basically a +2 dices in strength, another one is level headed without the smarts d8 requirent, the ap2 is nice too..w in short, I thibk it's very good since it gets tou edges that you would need other things to qualify for.

              for harrowed, it's good mechanically, but it's also that I want to start harrowed for fluff. I just like this, even with the gm able to seize power from time to time.

              for templar, that's a good idea actually. More power points and powers are gold, thougj I'm a bit worried about the action economy if you have too much buffs to use. So yeah, maybe I will do this : focus my first advances on templar stuff, and then more combat.

              On the other hand, I really like the kung fu edges, and it fits with my character. The only downside is needing the martial artist edge, which is pretty useless, and then taking all the advances is pretty expensive, but I don't have all of them. So, really I don't know...
              anyway, thanks a lot for the answer!
              and sorry for the typos, I'm on my phone and I don't have autocorrect...

              Comment


              • #9
                Kung Fu is excellent, and combines with the absurd power of a core rules martial artist to be amazing.
                But that build is best as a single focus.

                For optimization, dabbling in Kung Fu is kind of bad. The dead Advance to meet the requirements (MA is a good edge, but not if you're always using a sword) is a hefty price to get any of them and your requirements have much higher priorities to be good at their stuff.
                I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                Comment


                • #10
                  Yeah, you're probably right. Too bad, I liked it.

                  Comment


                  • ValhallaGH
                    ValhallaGH commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Me too. I really like it, and it is pretty strong (especially if the Marshal lets you use multiple styles at once; not all do), but very few builds besides "kung fu guy" can afford to spend the edges on it.

                • #11
                  So, for the edges
                  progression, I'm now looking at this :
                  harrowed, supernatural strength, templar, veteran, elan, power points, supernatural vigor, new power (quickness), with either armor or boos trait as the first power. That would give me 7 parry, 9 with the shield, 9 toughness (2 from armor), or 11 against bullets, and attacks at d10+2 (+wild dice) for 2d8 damage. I would also have 3 powers, healing, quickness and either armor or boost trait, but I think armor since I'm probably going to draw the ennemy fire, and 15 PP to go with those powers. I think it's a pretty sweet start, right ?
                  I know no one recommanded Elan, but I like it, and my GM wants us to use bennies more to do awesome stuff so I figure a +2 when it matters is really useful, and it can always help soak damages anyway.

                  what do you think ?

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    It's not bad, but I do have a few notes. The Armor power doesn't necessarily stack with physical armor; that's something to double-check with your Marshal. But Deflection is a tried and true alternative. As for action economy, there's an Edge called Simon's Blessing. With it, you can activate a single power each round as a free action. You still have to pass the Faith roll, but if you're busy pumping that up then no problem. In fact, there's a whole mess of Templar-only Edges you might want to look at.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      Originally posted by Yorkblack View Post
                      So, for the edges
                      progression, I'm now looking at this :
                      harrowed, supernatural strength, templar, veteran, elan, power points, supernatural vigor, new power (quickness), with either armor or boos trait as the first power. That would give me 7 parry, 9 with the shield, 9 toughness (2 from armor), or 11 against bullets, and attacks at d10+2 (+wild dice) for 2d8 damage. I would also have 3 powers, healing, quickness and either armor or boost trait, but I think armor since I'm probably going to draw the ennemy fire, and 15 PP to go with those powers. I think it's a pretty sweet start, right ?
                      I know no one recommanded Elan, but I like it, and my GM wants us to use bennies more to do awesome stuff so I figure a +2 when it matters is really useful, and it can always help soak damages anyway.

                      what do you think ?
                      Pretty good.
                      You'll want to add Champion in to your plans. It can be a pain to get, but that +2 damage and +2 Toughness when fighting monsters (and some cultists) is worth it.

                      I'll second the call for Simon's Blessing - that edge is basically Adept but for all your Templar powers. It does require Seasoned, but so do most of the Templar exclusive edges (HOE:R page 89). (Those edges are really good. Sword of the Saints would stack with Champion.)

                      Armor is good, and should stack with any physical armor since the power protects you with magical energy - and physical and non-physical armors stack unless the GM rules they don't (because he hates you).
                      Deflection is just as good, since it stops you from getting hit as often and will generally reduce a raise to a regular hit - though it can't do anything for those attacks that do hit.

                      One of the fun things about Supernatural Trait is that it also raises the Attribute limit by two steps. A harrowed can potentially get to d12+2 in all five Attributes with normal advances. So, don't forget about using Advances to increase your Attributes and skills - they matter.

                      Elan is a great edge. Since you already need the Spirit d8+, the only reason not to take it is opportunity cost and the benny economy.
                      When you reach Heroic, the Chosen of the Saints edge is worth taking. You may have higher priorities, but don't forget about it.

                      Good luck!
                      I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        What does qualify as "supernaturally evil" exactly ? Because unlike in d&d where all monsters have a clear type, alignement and sometimes subtype, it is a bit vague in deadlands. Now I haven't read the monsters part in hoe since I'm not the marshall, but if it is like to the deadlands reloaded one, I'm not sure what works...

                        and another question : the ballistic shield says that it provides medium cover to someone standing behind it. Does that mean that if an opponent shoots me and hits despise the cover, I don't get the armor bonus from the shield ?

                        finally, I'm looking at the skills: which ones do you think are the most important to take ?

                        thanks a lot !
                        Last edited by Yorkblack; 04-07-2018, 06:26 AM.

                        Comment


                        • ValhallaGH
                          ValhallaGH commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Skills: talk to your marshal about what kind of campaign he's planning to run. Explain that you've got a few unspent skill points and you're wanting some information to spend them in a way that helps the campaign.

                      • #15
                        If it isn't a naturally occurring creature, human, or robot (not an Automaton, because [REDACTED]) then it is supernatural.

                        And most supernatural things are also Evil; the Marshal has a lot of leeway here. Nature spirits and their manifestations aren't evil, neither are (most) tech spirits, and pollution spirits exist in a morally ambiguous space that makes them questionable.

                        Manitous are unambiguously Evil. Which means demons, walkin' dead (all types), wendigo, wolflings, a Harrowed under the control of the manitou, hostile ghosts, and many other critters are evil.

                        Rattlers are also supernatural and evil. So them, wormlings, etc.

                        The only confusing area is human cultists. Rank and file cultists, with no powers, are normal evil not supernaturally evil. Cult leaders with real power are probably as supernaturally evil as an AB (Miracles) character of an evil god.
                        I hope you find the above post useful. And not insulting, because I was trying to be helpful, not insulting; being a pedantic jerk, that isn't always clear.

                        Comment

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