***Rules Questions for SW Settings***

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PhantomDoodler
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#41 Postby PhantomDoodler » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:42 am

Ok, a couple of questions for NE.
1. What is exactly the point of taking the Jack of all trades edge, when you can take the signifigantly cheaper power Gifted, which affects all skills(JOAT just affects smarts). Wouldnt it make more sense to reverse these two. So taking the edge ignores -2 for all unskilled tests, or maybe say -1 if thats too powerful, while the gifted power effects skills linked to one attribute(probably smarts,Spirit or agility),with say a modifier of +1 per additional attribute.
2. Can you take the Master edge if you have purchased skills to d12+2 or more, using the Super-skill power? If so, must you still be at legendary rank to take this edge?
3. If you decide to play your own alien species, do you start with an extra edge like a human? - otherwise you are actually penalized for coming up with an interesting species. Or should you work with the Gm to create a racial template (working out equivelent to an extra edge) so that they can introduce others of your species to the game?
4.When a power modifier has a multiplier(x2 etc) do you multiply the cost before or after you apply any modifiers. In other words if you had the jinx power(2) with the modifiers: area effect(+2) and Improved Jinx(x2) would the final cost be 6((2x2)+2) or 8 ((2+2)x2)?

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#42 Postby Redeucer » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:37 am

PhantomDoodler wrote:Ok, a couple of questions for NE.
1. What is exactly the point of taking the Jack of all trades edge, when you can take the signifigantly cheaper power Gifted, which affects all skills(JOAT just affects smarts). Wouldnt it make more sense to reverse these two. So taking the edge ignores -2 for all unskilled tests, or maybe say -1 if thats too powerful, while the gifted power effects skills linked to one attribute(probably smarts,Spirit or agility),with say a modifier of +1 per additional attribute.


I think the logic behind this is that JoaT is an edge while Gifted is a power. Since you are limited to a maximum of 40 power points over your characters carreer, do you really want to spend that power point there or somewhere else? There is no such limit on edges.

PhantomDoodler wrote:2. Can you take the Master edge if you have purchased skills to d12+2 or more, using the Super-skill power? If so, must you still be at legendary rank to take this edge?


I would say no. It specifically says that Expert is a prerequisite. But then why would you want to? Take Professional and Expert first so you get that additional +2.

PhantomDoodler wrote:3. If you decide to play your own alien species, do you start with an extra edge like a human? - otherwise you are actually penalized for coming up with an interesting species. Or should you work with the Gm to create a racial template (working out equivelent to an extra edge) so that they can introduce others of your species to the game?


This depends on what you mean by "play your own alien species". If it is something there is already a package set up for, then no you don't get that extra edge. For example, if you decided to play the Saurians as an alien lizard race, you would not get that extra edge. If, however, you are building a race from scratch and not using a package, then yes you would get the extra edge. Although you may not be truly human, you are using the human base to build your character from.

PhantomDoodler wrote:4.When a power modifier has a multiplier(x2 etc) do you multiply the cost before or after you apply any modifiers. In other words if you had the jinx power(2) with the modifiers: area effect(+2) and Improved Jinx(x2) would the final cost be 6((2x2)+2) or 8 ((2+2)x2)?


That kinda depends. Do you want the area affect also improved, or just those who are against you. Lets compare:

I want anyone who attacks me personally to suffer the Improved Jinx, while anyone in the area to suffer only the normal. In this case, then the cost would be (2x2)+2=6.

or...

I want anyone in the area to suffer the Improved Jinx, then it would cost (2+2)x2=8.
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#43 Postby PhantomDoodler » Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:12 pm

redeucer wrote:
PhantomDoodler wrote:Ok, a couple of questions for NE.
1. What is exactly the point of taking the Jack of all trades edge, when you can take the signifigantly cheaper power Gifted, which affects all skills(JOAT just affects smarts). Wouldnt it make more sense to reverse these two. So taking the edge ignores -2 for all unskilled tests, or maybe say -1 if thats too powerful, while the gifted power effects skills linked to one attribute(probably smarts,Spirit or agility),with say a modifier of +1 per additional attribute.


I think the logic behind this is that JoaT is an edge while Gifted is a power. Since you are limited to a maximum of 40 power points over your characters carreer, do you really want to spend that power point there or somewhere else? There is no such limit on edges.


I understand the pp limit, but surely any player toying with JOAT would be much better to spend 1PP and have a much better ability, and then spend that edge on something else, such as another 5 pps.
PhantomDoodler wrote:2. Can you take the Master edge if you have purchased skills to d12+2 or more, using the Super-skill power? If so, must you still be at legendary rank to take this edge?


I would say no. It specifically says that Expert is a prerequisite. But then why would you want to? Take Professional and Expert first so you get that additional +2.

My point is that anyone can get d12+2 in a trait relatively easily at character generation. Even if they didnt buy a skill with skill points, they can get it at d12+2 for 4pps. Now there is actually no point buying Profession or Expert with these high traits, and so having Master would mean having to buy three edges for just that ability.Perhaps profession and expert merely add +1 or +2 to the Trait (min d12)- in which case it makes them worth having.
PhantomDoodler wrote:3. If you decide to play your own alien species, do you start with an extra edge like a human? - otherwise you are actually penalized for coming up with an interesting species. Or should you work with the Gm to create a racial template (working out equivelent to an extra edge) so that they can introduce others of your species to the game?


This depends on what you mean by "play your own alien species". If it is something there is already a package set up for, then no you don't get that extra edge. For example, if you decided to play the Saurians as an alien lizard race, you would not get that extra edge. If, however, you are building a race from scratch and not using a package, then yes you would get the extra edge. Although you may not be truly human, you are using the human base to build your character from.

by "play my own alien species" I mean a totally new race devised by the player. In the rulebook when it mentions about creating your own species using powers(p13)I think it would have been useful to mention that when doing so,you gain a free edge. Or include a generic Alien race, which starts with a bonus edge much like a human.
PhantomDoodler wrote:4.When a power modifier has a multiplier(x2 etc) do you multiply the cost before or after you apply any modifiers. In other words if you had the jinx power(2) with the modifiers: area effect(+2) and Improved Jinx(x2) would the final cost be 6((2x2)+2) or 8 ((2+2)x2)?


That kinda depends. Do you want the area affect also improved, or just those who are against you. Lets compare:

I want anyone who attacks me personally to suffer the Improved Jinx, while anyone in the area to suffer only the normal. In this case, then the cost would be (2x2)+2=6.

or...

I want anyone in the area to suffer the Improved Jinx, then it would cost (2+2)x2=8.


ok I can see how that works but it seems a lttle complicated to me-modifiers modifiying modifiers- thats more MMM than FFF! :lol: I have just noticed that it does state that modifiers affect the basic cost so I would interpret that as not effecting other modifiers- you apply after.

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#44 Postby Clint » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:20 pm

PhantomDoodler wrote:
redeucer wrote:
PhantomDoodler wrote:Ok, a couple of questions for NE.
1. What is exactly the point of taking the Jack of all trades edge, when you can take the signifigantly cheaper power Gifted, which affects all skills(JOAT just affects smarts). Wouldnt it make more sense to reverse these two. So taking the edge ignores -2 for all unskilled tests, or maybe say -1 if thats too powerful, while the gifted power effects skills linked to one attribute(probably smarts,Spirit or agility),with say a modifier of +1 per additional attribute.


I think the logic behind this is that JoaT is an edge while Gifted is a power. Since you are limited to a maximum of 40 power points over your characters carreer, do you really want to spend that power point there or somewhere else? There is no such limit on edges.


I understand the pp limit, but surely any player toying with JOAT would be much better to spend 1PP and have a much better ability, and then spend that edge on something else, such as another 5 pps.


Really, it's a matter of a couple of things. One, since you can only take Power Points once per Rank, taking it again isn't necessarily an option.

A starting character has one or two potential Edges that can't be spent to gain more PP's no matter what. If taking that Edge saves a PP that could be spent elsewhere, it's an option.

Plus, JOAT can't be Negated. That can be a big advantage where the enemy had Nullifiers.

PhantomDoodler wrote:
redeucer wrote:
PhantomDoodler wrote:2. Can you take the Master edge if you have purchased skills to d12+2 or more, using the Super-skill power? If so, must you still be at legendary rank to take this edge?


I would say no. It specifically says that Expert is a prerequisite. But then why would you want to? Take Professional and Expert first so you get that additional +2.

My point is that anyone can get d12+2 in a trait relatively easily at character generation. Even if they didnt buy a skill with skill points, they can get it at d12+2 for 4pps. Now there is actually no point buying Profession or Expert with these high traits, and so having Master would mean having to buy three edges for just that ability.Perhaps profession and expert merely add +1 or +2 to the Trait (min d12)- in which case it makes them worth having.


There's no reason Professional and Expert wouldn't add their bonuses to a higher Trait type. Although if the d12 Trait can from powers instead of an innate ability, then the bonuses from those Edges (or Master) would be lost if those powers were negated or reduced below a d12.

But yes, a character still has to be Legendary to get them.

Honestly, if a GM wanted to waive the prerequisite Edges for Master as long as the character has a d12+2 or better in the Trait, I don't think it would be an issue with superpowered characters.

PhantomDoodler wrote:
redeucer wrote:
PhantomDoodler wrote:3. If you decide to play your own alien species, do you start with an extra edge like a human? - otherwise you are actually penalized for coming up with an interesting species. Or should you work with the Gm to create a racial template (working out equivelent to an extra edge) so that they can introduce others of your species to the game?


This depends on what you mean by "play your own alien species". If it is something there is already a package set up for, then no you don't get that extra edge. For example, if you decided to play the Saurians as an alien lizard race, you would not get that extra edge. If, however, you are building a race from scratch and not using a package, then yes you would get the extra edge. Although you may not be truly human, you are using the human base to build your character from.

by "play my own alien species" I mean a totally new race devised by the player. In the rulebook when it mentions about creating your own species using powers(p13)I think it would have been useful to mention that when doing so,you gain a free edge. Or include a generic Alien race, which starts with a bonus edge much like a human.


The easiest way is to just use human as the starting point (with a free Edge). If the character doesn't look human, then they take the Alien Form hindrance.

PhantomDoodler wrote:
redeucer wrote:
PhantomDoodler wrote:4.When a power modifier has a multiplier(x2 etc) do you multiply the cost before or after you apply any modifiers. In other words if you had the jinx power(2) with the modifiers: area effect(+2) and Improved Jinx(x2) would the final cost be 6((2x2)+2) or 8 ((2+2)x2)?


That kinda depends. Do you want the area affect also improved, or just those who are against you. Lets compare:

I want anyone who attacks me personally to suffer the Improved Jinx, while anyone in the area to suffer only the normal. In this case, then the cost would be (2x2)+2=6.

or...

I want anyone in the area to suffer the Improved Jinx, then it would cost (2+2)x2=8.


ok I can see how that works but it seems a lttle complicated to me-modifiers modifiying modifiers- thats more MMM than FFF! :lol: I have just noticed that it does state that modifiers affect the basic cost so I would interpret that as not effecting other modifiers- you apply after.


Multipliers (x2 for example) are applied to the total cost of the power. Otherwise, there is no reason for them to be a multiplier in the first place, and Improved Jinx would just be listed as +2 (doubling the base cost) instead of x2.

Plus, it allows the option (if the GM allows) as redeucer mentioned to tweak the power somewhat.
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#45 Postby PhantomDoodler » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:47 am

Tar Clint. Yes I understand about Nullify now- edges are safe from fiddling. I guess also that powers are by definition much more powerful than edges or skill points, since supers are much more powerful than mundanes. When you run out of PPs to spend, players have to make do with more expensive edges etc.

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#46 Postby thmbscrws » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:12 pm

When you take the undead superpower it gives you the same ability as regeneration. In fact under regeneration one of the trappings listed is "powerfull undead". So my question is if you are undead how do you buy up your regeneration. Do you have to purchase the regeneration power which you already have before you purchase fast regeneration or can you just start buying regeneration at fast regeneration. It seems kind of unfair to have to buy the same power twice but it makes a lot of sense for certain kinds of undead to regenerate very quickly so how do you go about getting higher levels of regen?

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#47 Postby Redeucer » Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:25 pm

thmbscrws wrote:When you take the undead superpower it gives you the same ability as regeneration. In fact under regeneration one of the trappings listed is "powerfull undead". So my question is if you are undead how do you buy up your regeneration. Do you have to purchase the regeneration power which you already have before you purchase fast regeneration or can you just start buying regeneration at fast regeneration. It seems kind of unfair to have to buy the same power twice but it makes a lot of sense for certain kinds of undead to regenerate very quickly so how do you go about getting higher levels of regen?


thmbscrws,

Undead does not give you the same ability as Regeneration.

Undead (NE p. 49):
Undead do not benefit from the Healing skill, but roll natural healing rolls once per day.


Regeneration (NE p. 44):
Make a Vigor roll every hour. If the roll is successful, your villain heals one wound.


If you want to have the regeneration ability, you will have to buy it.
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growth in NE

#48 Postby nerdron » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:10 pm

I have a question about the Growth power. Is there a quideline as to how tall/heavy a character is as he gets larger from this power? If I grow to level 3, I still occupy one square, but how tall and heavy would I be?

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#49 Postby thmbscrws » Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:21 pm

"thmbscrws wrote:
When you take the undead superpower it gives you the same ability as regeneration. In fact under regeneration one of the trappings listed is "powerfull undead". So my question is if you are undead how do you buy up your regeneration. Do you have to purchase the regeneration power which you already have before you purchase fast regeneration or can you just start buying regeneration at fast regeneration. It seems kind of unfair to have to buy the same power twice but it makes a lot of sense for certain kinds of undead to regenerate very quickly so how do you go about getting higher levels of regen?


thmbscrws,

Undead does not give you the same ability as Regeneration.

Undead (NE p. 49):
Quote:
Undead do not benefit from the Healing skill, but roll natural healing rolls once per day.


Regeneration (NE p. 44):
Quote:
Make a Vigor roll every hour. If the roll is successful, your villain heals one wound.


If you want to have the regeneration ability, you will have to buy it"

Your right i just misread it lol. Thanks.

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Re: growth in NE

#50 Postby Mindseye » Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:11 am

nerdron wrote:I have a question about the Growth power. Is there a quideline as to how tall/heavy a character is as he gets larger from this power? If I grow to level 3, I still occupy one square, but how tall and heavy would I be?


I'm probably calling it by the wrong name, but I believe this is governed by the "Square-Cube Law." Basically as you double the height, you triple the weight? If it does nothing else, at least this response should prompt the physics majors to come out of the woodwork to correct me! :P

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Re: growth in NE

#51 Postby nerdron » Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:27 am

da Wookiee wrote:
nerdron wrote:I have a question about the Growth power. Is there a quideline as to how tall/heavy a character is as he gets larger from this power? If I grow to level 3, I still occupy one square, but how tall and heavy would I be?


I'm probably calling it by the wrong name, but I believe this is governed by the "Square-Cube Law." Basically as you double the height, you triple the weight? If it does nothing else, at least this response should prompt the physics majors to come out of the woodwork to correct me! :P

da Wookiee

right,b ut you do not take up 2 hexes until you reach size 4... so I have no idea how that corelates. I am wondering if my size 3 hero can still fit inside buildings and such...

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#52 Postby Mindseye » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:24 am

well, size +1 to +2 can fit into K'tharen armor, so I'd say your no bigger than an average Hulk, or Juggernaut. 7-8 ft, 500 to 800 lbs. at size 3, my ballpark would guess around 9ft. 1000 lbs. Inside buildings, watch out for light fixtures, and you'll probably find yourself taking the stairs often. Don't ride in anything smaller than a 3/4 ton pickup. and don't try driving yourself, they don't make vehicles for that size unless it says fantasticar on it.

My opinion, ymmv

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#53 Postby nerdron » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:12 am

da Wookiee wrote:well, size +1 to +2 can fit into K'tharen armor, so I'd say your no bigger than an average Hulk, or Juggernaut. 7-8 ft, 500 to 800 lbs. at size 3, my ballpark would guess around 9ft. 1000 lbs. Inside buildings, watch out for light fixtures, and you'll probably find yourself taking the stairs often. Don't ride in anything smaller than a 3/4 ton pickup. and don't try driving yourself, they don't make vehicles for that size unless it says fantasticar on it.

My opinion, ymmv

da Wookiee

I just looked in the main rulebook, and an ogre is size +3 at 8 feet tall, so I reckon you are right. It would still be nice to look at a chart for the bigger sizes.

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Re: growth in NE

#54 Postby palehorse » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:50 am

da Wookiee wrote:I'm probably calling it by the wrong name, but I believe this is governed by the "Square-Cube Law." Basically as you double the height, you triple the weight?


When you double something in size, it increases 8 times in mass.

A 1x1x1 cube has a mass 1 square unit. A 2x2x2 cube has a mass of 8 square units. A 4x4x4 cube has a mass of 64 square units. Etc., etc., etc. So after 2 doublings, an object is 64 times as massive.

(I'm not a physics major. Just a big geek.)

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Re: growth in NE

#55 Postby fanchergw » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:24 am

nerdron wrote:I have a question about the Growth power. Is there a quideline as to how tall/heavy a character is as he gets larger from this power? If I grow to level 3, I still occupy one square, but how tall and heavy would I be?

nerdron,

From looking at the Size table in the core rule book, it is my impression that each level of Size equates roughly to 2x mass. Thus, 3 levels of Growth (+3 Size), should be about 8x mass and roughly 2x height, assuming relatively-constant density.

Gordon

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#56 Postby Clint » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:23 pm

SlasherEpoch wrote:Not...really. I sort of meant, "As an additional effect to Altered Form, can a character stretch to the point of counting as a Size+1 creature?"

In other words, can stretchiness imitate growth? Since the power says they can stretch to be 50% larger, it seems to imply that, but it's not spelled out yes or no.


Ah, the perils of a question getting left behind. :wink:

Sorry for the delay.

No, Altered Form does not mimic or provide the benefits of Growth. Unfortunately, it is a bit poorly worded. The "size" changes refect how much the character can alter their dimensions, but they don't really get "Size," the ability.

So with 150% increase, the character can be 15' tall, but they are going to be a thin Mr. Fantastic/Elongated Man 15' tall.

Hope this clears things up.
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Re: growth in NE

#57 Postby Clint » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:35 pm

fanchergw wrote:
nerdron wrote:I have a question about the Growth power. Is there a quideline as to how tall/heavy a character is as he gets larger from this power? If I grow to level 3, I still occupy one square, but how tall and heavy would I be?

nerdron,

From looking at the Size table in the core rule book, it is my impression that each level of Size equates roughly to 2x mass. Thus, 3 levels of Growth (+3 Size), should be about 8x mass and roughly 2x height, assuming relatively-constant density.


Gordon has pretty well nailed how I see it.

Size 0 = minimum 125 lbs.
Size 1 = minimum 250 lbs.
Size 2 = minimum 500 lbs.
Size 3 = minimum 1000 lbs.
Size 4 = minimum 1 ton and 2x height
Size 5 = minimum 2 tons
Size 6 = minimum 4 tons
Size 7 = minimum 8 tons
Size 8 = minimum 16 tons and 4x height
etc.

I know the 8x/2x rule, but since I'm dealing with a minimum value and some fudging, I hedge my bets on height by a level (plus it fits with the Large and Huge categories).

Really, it's just a rough personal guideline. Whatever works for you, works for you.

Hope this helps.
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#58 Postby nerdron » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:07 pm

Thanks Clint. That is close to what I thought, but it is nice to hear from the writer himself.

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#59 Postby Redeucer » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:11 pm

OK, Master Clint. We need your help in turning to the dark side. :wink:

In our discussion on the other thread, Mind Control was brought up as a neutralizer to the spike/munchkin/"Invisible Ninja"/etc. Under the NE rules it states:

Active powers, such as attack, ranged, require a Shooting or Throwing roll as usual, and grant bonus damage for a raise as normal.


Since Mind Control is an active power, wouldn't it also require a to hit roll of some kind?

Thank you from all of your padawan (or however you spell it). :lol:
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#60 Postby DarkEmperor040 » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:14 am

Not to take away from the previous question, but I've got one myself if anybody could get around to it.

I saw this Modifier question answered before about an offensive power, but, I'm not sure how it would work with Deflection. If I were to have Deflection that was Limited to Kinetic damage at -4 to the shooting roll and required activation, how would the cost be figured?

4/2-1=1 or (4-1)/2=1.5?


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